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Alright,
Lets begin
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I was about to ask why you have not seen the scan. But based on your description it seems like you have seen it.
Zenon didn't make a cube around Yuno. Yuno was standing here defending his attacks and Zenon simply teleported him to another dimension. Yuno vanished from that spot he was originally in. I don't mind you calling the dimension a "cube" but you can't say Yuno is still on the battlefield because he literally isn't on the battlefield. Yuno was able to escape by teleporting himself out of the dimension back onto the battlefield. Which gives Yuno interdimensional range and resistance to BFR.
I don't think her instinct will save her because Zenon can still teleport her instantly. The BFR can't be dodged She needs resistance to BFR and/or interdimensional range to escape.
Side Note: Zenon can still spam his bones to occupy her while using another spell simultaneously.
Fortunately there is nothing affecting her. She is just chilling in another dimension or "cube". No harm done to her nor is there anything going on after being sent somewhere else. So there is nothing for the Apostle to disintegrate. Unless you're claiming she disintegrates the dimension which shouldn't be possible.
Naiz BFR ability is quite pointless if it only sends you a couple hundreds of kilometers. Wont the target simply come back? Apostles have limitless stamina. Why did it seem like he couldn't bfr silver apostle? Was it because he had not tried it on a silver apostle yet? If he tried it on a regular apostle why wouldn't it work on a silver apostle? Since it requires touch to activate, won't the apostle immediately defend herself against Naiz? Especially when the apostle is probably stronger and faster than him.
Spatial magic uses Law and conceptual manipulation to manipulate space. It shouldn't matter how space is manipulated because spatial manipulation is still spatial manipulation. In fact, I think manipulating space directly is more efficient. But those are my thoughts and the objective reality is using Law and Conceptual Manipulation means to manipulate space doesn't make it literally better since it's the same space Zenon manipulates. It is only better if it's a higher-dimensional space. Moreover, comparing conceptual EE to regular EE has nothing to do with using conceptual manipulation to manipulate space and just manipulating space, that is fallacious. Conceptual EE erases more things than Regular EE so it is obviously better/higher. This is the best example to explain this logic: Using conceptual erasure is higher than using conceptual manipulation to perform regular existence erasure. Manipulating space is still manipulating space so unless he is a smurf that manipulates higher spaces (4D, 5D, 6D 7D... spaces), there is nothing suggesting using Law and conceptual manipulation for spatial manipulation makes their spatial manipulation higher than others. This logic above applies to the misconception that Law based Fate manipulation is better or higher than regular Fate manipulation because it is possible for regular fate manipulators to manipulate it at a higher level than those who manipulate Fate with Law manipulation For example, Anos, do I need to say more? The man literally manipulates impossibilities among possibilities without using law manipulation. It's just all redundant, to say the least, and requires extra proof with layers like you were about to do anyway. Otherwise, I do not see why fruit ninja dainsleif won't work. But like I said before he doesn't need it. BFR and Power Nullification are enough, so let's see how you handle them.
The claim I made was for the speed of disintegration rather than the potency of the disintegration itself. Of course, I know it is higher but is it fast enough to fight Zenon's bone regeneration speed? It doesn't help that Zenon has more than one way to boost his speed on top of his bone regeneration speed. I think I made this point more than once so for the sake of not making this post a light novel, I will ignore your responses to Zenon's deconstruction resistance via bone regeneration speed only if it talks about the potency of disintegration and not the speed.
Noted. If the disintegration magic negs the effects of ancient magic and not the magic itself to negate the effects then it is allowed in the tournament. Thanks for the scans they provided a ton of context and I can paint a picture in my mind.
With the exception of the heart (the organ Apostle needs to strike to kill Zenon), devils are unaffected by Holy manipulation.
With that said, There was a time Langris got crazy and threw a barrage of spatial erasing orbs at Asta. Asta called for Zora to use his attack reflection to shoot back the attack at double the layer and speed. Zora's magic is trap magic where he either draws magic circles on his body, in the air, or on other surfaces to boost enemy spells by two folds including its speed. Langris' rage power kicked in and he overcame the layer and speed difference to intercept the orbs and erase his own attack.
So add a layer to Zenon's spatial manipulation layers and power nullification layers because Langris could negate his own attack reflected back at him, and Zenon scales higher than Langris as shown in my previous post.
I addressed it in the first paragraph i think. so i will keep this short.
Yuno's magic is star magic (he also has wind magic). With star magic, he is able to teleport between stars. Yuno simply escaped the dimension by teleporting to one of his stars outside the dimension. This gives him interdimensional range with star magic. Should be on his profile too. I gave you context that he was sent there by Zenon in the previous paragraph. Yuno was on the battle feild and he vanished to another dimension or "cube" and then comes back with star magic.
She needs pocket dimension manipulation to counter this with disintegration. She doesn't have that on her profile. Has she ever disintegrated a pocket dimension before?
She needs interdimensional range to escape through space. I think she also needs interdimensional network to communicate with Ehit, you might probably think the range doesn't matter so I am willing to read why it doesn't in your next post.
Oh no worries
Noted. However, Black Clover's humans, devils, and one elf matches this fairly easily. The humans with fully developed magic have resistance to mind manipulation and this gets layered as stronger humans come into the picture. Thanks to a number of factors such as magic power, willpower, and accelerated development granting humans resistances. Licht, an elf, gains resistance to possession of the mind and body using forbidden magic. Devils are naturally resistant to mind manipulation. Even Leibe, a devil, who has absolutely no magic has resistance to mind manipulation. Despite the resistance to mind manipulation, Devils can still mind control themselves depending on their rank. A higher ranking devil manipulates a lower rank and a resistant to the mind manipulation from a lower rank and those weaker than them on the same rank. This grants too many layers to count due to the massive population of devils in the underworld. The low-ranking devils, mid-ranking devils, high-ranking devils and supreme rank all have resistance to mind possession from lower beings amongst themselves.
Zenon is fortunate to have become a devil. Not only does he have his layered human resistance, he also gained layered devil resistance up to High ranking devil level. Trust me he isn't getting possessed anytime soon.
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UPDATE: POWER FROM THE UNDERWORLD IS SIMILAR TO ANCIENT MAGIC
I am a slow typer and a very busy person so during my dinner I stumbled accross what Ancient Magic definitions. I saw the scans for it and saw its similarity to Arcane Stage magic in black clover. Before I begin to show you why Ancient magic and Arcane magic are similar concepts. Let me just start by saying that Human Zenon at 100% Devil power scales higher than 60% Dante who was able to nullify an arcane stage mage (Vanessa) so hard they lost all their magic. Now lets begin.
Ancient magic is a type of magic capable of interfering with concept and laws of the world. Arcane magic is also magic possessed by humans, the power is from the underworld and is capable of affecting the laws of the world as well. Arcane Stage mages have the potential to beat devils. Asta (he was regarded as arcane since he is a devil host and his anti magic can beat devils), Yami, Vengeance, Nero (Uses Ancient Sealing Magic and has used forbidden magic to amp it before) , Vanessa, Licht (used too much forbidden magic and his magic got curropted), Lumiere (absorbed forbidden magic when fighting curropted Licht, so he got curropted too), and Grey (Dante detected Arcane magic when he sensed her magic), are all arcane stage mages. Devil hosts and Devils themselves can kill each other and their power literally originates from the underworld so they should also be arcane. Devils like Naamah and Lilith are also capable of erasing invisible concepts. Lucifero (who is one of the ruler of the underworld) gave Morris the ability to manipulate concepts after he became his host. Zenon hosts one of the three rulers of the underworld and Lucius hosts the last ruler. With Devil power literally coming from the underworld, Zenon should have both "Conceptual levels" of power.
Now let us get back to the discussion. I only did this so you can stop saying conceptual manipulation and law manipulation a big deal. It definitely isnt a big deal to me. Not a new thing in Black Clover lol.
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She is going to cry. She is definitely going to cry facing this. lol.
I figured regeneration speed would matter because the potency of the Apostle's regen could be higher than Yuno's. I am not sure if it is higher than Yuno's because Yuno gained several corrosive boosts and Zenon just keeps on adapting as he increases his devil power before giving up and becoming a literal devil that is capable of further amping himself. I dont mind if Yuno's potency is lesser, I still got the regenerative speed argument as back up.
I dont think its a good idea for you to layer regenrative speed, especially when his bone regeneration speed increases with each devil power percentage. Dont forget that each percentage was stated to be a huge boost. I did not want to bring this scan up earlier, but I did say Zenon's layers are too many to count. So each percentage is a layer of regen speed for Zenon. So that is 50 layers from when Spirit Dive Yuno first complained about Zenon's regens speed at 50% to Zenon reached 100% use of Devil power, Then slap another layer for becoming a literal Devil. Its unclear if Zenon's bone regen speed increases in Devil form but Zenon himself did get stronger over time. So I will end at least 51 Layers.
I am going to assume you have an answer to Zenon's power nullification. Probably in the next paragraph.
Oh okay Apostle's layers dont seem to reach Zenon's power nullification layers. And I already showed how Arcane magic is basically Ancient Magic, So Zenon's power nullification works.
Spatial Domination is similar to Manazone. It is a zone that allows Zenon to have power over all magic within it, nullify whatever magic is already cast and prevent others from casting spells or using magic. So if one can't even cast any spell in the first place, he would not need to worry about spells after it is cast although i believe he can handle it regardless. also he does not nullify mana pools, the mana pool doesn't matter cuz he simply shuts off the ability to use it.
The only way to overcome Devil Zenon's SD is to surpass his layers, which is virtually impossible. Even if you pull a strawman and associate BC verse mechanic to Arifureta Zero, Zenon still has the advantage with several amps at his disposal. It is very unlikely she gets past Spatial Domination.
Naiz makes Dainsleif useless so dainsleif wont be a wincon. I dont mind that. But I should look to BC a bit more just in case. You never know.
Fair point on how she works simultaneously, but i think i already addressed the skill level and feat arguement you made earlier. The bones are moving and appearing from Zenon, the walls and the floors non stop, simultaneously creating walls and walls of bones. So the skill used against roots that were not moving isn't enough, unless they really were moving but thats still one thing compared to bones not moving to form a wall and bones simultaneously appearing to attack her.
I have made counter arguments for most of this. I dont think the range is a big deal especially if he can easily close the gap. I think the range on hs profile is outdated but no worries. She should close the gap on her own too while Zenon does the needful.
Im sure youre aware of the number of amps Zenon has from his devil physiology and regular page. Skill is probably not going to help aagainst a speed advantaged + danmaku. She would need danmaku dodging feats or she will end up like this
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Zenon wins via Power nullification, and BFR. Possibly through bone manipulation.
I am completely and utterly drained. This response took a lot out of me.
However it was more of a blessing than a curse because it made me realize how much I love Black Clover, and I have big plans for this verse on wiki.
Pssing out now. Goodnight. or... morning.
Lets begin
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I was about to ask why you have not seen the scan. But based on your description it seems like you have seen it.
Zenon didn't make a cube around Yuno. Yuno was standing here defending his attacks and Zenon simply teleported him to another dimension. Yuno vanished from that spot he was originally in. I don't mind you calling the dimension a "cube" but you can't say Yuno is still on the battlefield because he literally isn't on the battlefield. Yuno was able to escape by teleporting himself out of the dimension back onto the battlefield. Which gives Yuno interdimensional range and resistance to BFR.
I don't think her instinct will save her because Zenon can still teleport her instantly. The BFR can't be dodged She needs resistance to BFR and/or interdimensional range to escape.
Side Note: Zenon can still spam his bones to occupy her while using another spell simultaneously.
Fortunately there is nothing affecting her. She is just chilling in another dimension or "cube". No harm done to her nor is there anything going on after being sent somewhere else. So there is nothing for the Apostle to disintegrate. Unless you're claiming she disintegrates the dimension which shouldn't be possible.
Naiz BFR ability is quite pointless if it only sends you a couple hundreds of kilometers. Wont the target simply come back? Apostles have limitless stamina. Why did it seem like he couldn't bfr silver apostle? Was it because he had not tried it on a silver apostle yet? If he tried it on a regular apostle why wouldn't it work on a silver apostle? Since it requires touch to activate, won't the apostle immediately defend herself against Naiz? Especially when the apostle is probably stronger and faster than him.
Spatial magic uses Law and conceptual manipulation to manipulate space. It shouldn't matter how space is manipulated because spatial manipulation is still spatial manipulation. In fact, I think manipulating space directly is more efficient. But those are my thoughts and the objective reality is using Law and Conceptual Manipulation means to manipulate space doesn't make it literally better since it's the same space Zenon manipulates. It is only better if it's a higher-dimensional space. Moreover, comparing conceptual EE to regular EE has nothing to do with using conceptual manipulation to manipulate space and just manipulating space, that is fallacious. Conceptual EE erases more things than Regular EE so it is obviously better/higher. This is the best example to explain this logic: Using conceptual erasure is higher than using conceptual manipulation to perform regular existence erasure. Manipulating space is still manipulating space so unless he is a smurf that manipulates higher spaces (4D, 5D, 6D 7D... spaces), there is nothing suggesting using Law and conceptual manipulation for spatial manipulation makes their spatial manipulation higher than others. This logic above applies to the misconception that Law based Fate manipulation is better or higher than regular Fate manipulation because it is possible for regular fate manipulators to manipulate it at a higher level than those who manipulate Fate with Law manipulation For example, Anos, do I need to say more? The man literally manipulates impossibilities among possibilities without using law manipulation. It's just all redundant, to say the least, and requires extra proof with layers like you were about to do anyway. Otherwise, I do not see why fruit ninja dainsleif won't work. But like I said before he doesn't need it. BFR and Power Nullification are enough, so let's see how you handle them.
Zenon should too.
The claim I made was for the speed of disintegration rather than the potency of the disintegration itself. Of course, I know it is higher but is it fast enough to fight Zenon's bone regeneration speed? It doesn't help that Zenon has more than one way to boost his speed on top of his bone regeneration speed. I think I made this point more than once so for the sake of not making this post a light novel, I will ignore your responses to Zenon's deconstruction resistance via bone regeneration speed only if it talks about the potency of disintegration and not the speed.
Noted. I had a feeling this disintegration would pose a threat to Dainsleif (the sword that rips space apart) thats why I left that out of the wincons Zenon has. But don't forget that Zenon has the speed advantage as well as danmaku, so are you sure she is unaffected by space manipulation or she just has a good way to defend against it. If it's the latter alone then Zenon could win with his Dainsleif before she gets her wings off.
Noted. If the disintegration magic negs the effects of ancient magic and not the magic itself to negate the effects then it is allowed in the tournament. Thanks for the scans they provided a ton of context and I can paint a picture in my mind.
With the exception of the heart (the organ Apostle needs to strike to kill Zenon), devils are unaffected by Holy manipulation.
Wait are you counting multipliers into layers? Actually, now that I think about it, Using multipliers to layer hax too actually makes sense to me.
With that said, There was a time Langris got crazy and threw a barrage of spatial erasing orbs at Asta. Asta called for Zora to use his attack reflection to shoot back the attack at double the layer and speed. Zora's magic is trap magic where he either draws magic circles on his body, in the air, or on other surfaces to boost enemy spells by two folds including its speed. Langris' rage power kicked in and he overcame the layer and speed difference to intercept the orbs and erase his own attack.
So add a layer to Zenon's spatial manipulation layers and power nullification layers because Langris could negate his own attack reflected back at him, and Zenon scales higher than Langris as shown in my previous post.
I addressed it in the first paragraph i think. so i will keep this short.
Yuno's magic is star magic (he also has wind magic). With star magic, he is able to teleport between stars. Yuno simply escaped the dimension by teleporting to one of his stars outside the dimension. This gives him interdimensional range with star magic. Should be on his profile too. I gave you context that he was sent there by Zenon in the previous paragraph. Yuno was on the battle feild and he vanished to another dimension or "cube" and then comes back with star magic.
She needs pocket dimension manipulation to counter this with disintegration. She doesn't have that on her profile. Has she ever disintegrated a pocket dimension before?
She needs interdimensional range to escape through space. I think she also needs interdimensional network to communicate with Ehit, you might probably think the range doesn't matter so I am willing to read why it doesn't in your next post.
This is what I was afraid of... But I think I can handle it since the rate of disintegration is at least comparable to her combat speed. So Zenon's bone regenerative speeds amped by his respective amps should take care of this. Zenon should be able to regenerate faster than she can disintegrate them.
Oh no worries
Noted. However, Black Clover's humans, devils, and one elf matches this fairly easily. The humans with fully developed magic have resistance to mind manipulation and this gets layered as stronger humans come into the picture. Thanks to a number of factors such as magic power, willpower, and accelerated development granting humans resistances. Licht, an elf, gains resistance to possession of the mind and body using forbidden magic. Devils are naturally resistant to mind manipulation. Even Leibe, a devil, who has absolutely no magic has resistance to mind manipulation. Despite the resistance to mind manipulation, Devils can still mind control themselves depending on their rank. A higher ranking devil manipulates a lower rank and a resistant to the mind manipulation from a lower rank and those weaker than them on the same rank. This grants too many layers to count due to the massive population of devils in the underworld. The low-ranking devils, mid-ranking devils, high-ranking devils and supreme rank all have resistance to mind possession from lower beings amongst themselves.
Zenon is fortunate to have become a devil. Not only does he have his layered human resistance, he also gained layered devil resistance up to High ranking devil level. Trust me he isn't getting possessed anytime soon.
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UPDATE: POWER FROM THE UNDERWORLD IS SIMILAR TO ANCIENT MAGIC
I am a slow typer and a very busy person so during my dinner I stumbled accross what Ancient Magic definitions. I saw the scans for it and saw its similarity to Arcane Stage magic in black clover. Before I begin to show you why Ancient magic and Arcane magic are similar concepts. Let me just start by saying that Human Zenon at 100% Devil power scales higher than 60% Dante who was able to nullify an arcane stage mage (Vanessa) so hard they lost all their magic. Now lets begin.
Ancient magic is a type of magic capable of interfering with concept and laws of the world. Arcane magic is also magic possessed by humans, the power is from the underworld and is capable of affecting the laws of the world as well. Arcane Stage mages have the potential to beat devils. Asta (he was regarded as arcane since he is a devil host and his anti magic can beat devils), Yami, Vengeance, Nero (Uses Ancient Sealing Magic and has used forbidden magic to amp it before) , Vanessa, Licht (used too much forbidden magic and his magic got curropted), Lumiere (absorbed forbidden magic when fighting curropted Licht, so he got curropted too), and Grey (Dante detected Arcane magic when he sensed her magic), are all arcane stage mages. Devil hosts and Devils themselves can kill each other and their power literally originates from the underworld so they should also be arcane. Devils like Naamah and Lilith are also capable of erasing invisible concepts. Lucifero (who is one of the ruler of the underworld) gave Morris the ability to manipulate concepts after he became his host. Zenon hosts one of the three rulers of the underworld and Lucius hosts the last ruler. With Devil power literally coming from the underworld, Zenon should have both "Conceptual levels" of power.
Now let us get back to the discussion. I only did this so you can stop saying conceptual manipulation and law manipulation a big deal. It definitely isnt a big deal to me. Not a new thing in Black Clover lol.
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I get where you are coming from but these roots are not moving and popping out from no where so how do you know they will still have the same skill when faced with moving bones emerging from every angle in such a way that the space between them are so miniscule that Zenon can use them for absolute defense or to make it impossible for his opponents to maneuver through. Yuno at this point where Devil Zenon's bone regeneration speed and hardness had reached its peak, spammed teleportation and maneuver acrobatically through them. And YET Yuno got caught and impaled by 3 of them. Well he did have one star left to teleport behind Zenon but the star only came from nowhere because Yuno grew stronger. Zenon already wiped out all his stars prior. Dont forget that Zenon can still attack while spamming bones and he still has the combat speed advantage with amps. So these bones emerging and moving about also have the speed advantage against the Apostle. Zenon can simultaneously use his bone whips (I hope they are not his tail) which has piercing damage too.
She is going to cry. She is definitely going to cry facing this. lol.
I figured regeneration speed would matter because the potency of the Apostle's regen could be higher than Yuno's. I am not sure if it is higher than Yuno's because Yuno gained several corrosive boosts and Zenon just keeps on adapting as he increases his devil power before giving up and becoming a literal devil that is capable of further amping himself. I dont mind if Yuno's potency is lesser, I still got the regenerative speed argument as back up.
I dont think its a good idea for you to layer regenrative speed, especially when his bone regeneration speed increases with each devil power percentage. Dont forget that each percentage was stated to be a huge boost. I did not want to bring this scan up earlier, but I did say Zenon's layers are too many to count. So each percentage is a layer of regen speed for Zenon. So that is 50 layers from when Spirit Dive Yuno first complained about Zenon's regens speed at 50% to Zenon reached 100% use of Devil power, Then slap another layer for becoming a literal Devil. Its unclear if Zenon's bone regen speed increases in Devil form but Zenon himself did get stronger over time. So I will end at least 51 Layers.
I am going to assume you have an answer to Zenon's power nullification. Probably in the next paragraph.
Oh okay Apostle's layers dont seem to reach Zenon's power nullification layers. And I already showed how Arcane magic is basically Ancient Magic, So Zenon's power nullification works.
Spatial Domination is similar to Manazone. It is a zone that allows Zenon to have power over all magic within it, nullify whatever magic is already cast and prevent others from casting spells or using magic. So if one can't even cast any spell in the first place, he would not need to worry about spells after it is cast although i believe he can handle it regardless. also he does not nullify mana pools, the mana pool doesn't matter cuz he simply shuts off the ability to use it.
The only way to overcome Devil Zenon's SD is to surpass his layers, which is virtually impossible. Even if you pull a strawman and associate BC verse mechanic to Arifureta Zero, Zenon still has the advantage with several amps at his disposal. It is very unlikely she gets past Spatial Domination.
Naiz makes Dainsleif useless so dainsleif wont be a wincon. I dont mind that. But I should look to BC a bit more just in case. You never know.
Fair point on how she works simultaneously, but i think i already addressed the skill level and feat arguement you made earlier. The bones are moving and appearing from Zenon, the walls and the floors non stop, simultaneously creating walls and walls of bones. So the skill used against roots that were not moving isn't enough, unless they really were moving but thats still one thing compared to bones not moving to form a wall and bones simultaneously appearing to attack her.
I have made counter arguments for most of this. I dont think the range is a big deal especially if he can easily close the gap. I think the range on hs profile is outdated but no worries. She should close the gap on her own too while Zenon does the needful.
Im sure youre aware of the number of amps Zenon has from his devil physiology and regular page. Skill is probably not going to help aagainst a speed advantaged + danmaku. She would need danmaku dodging feats or she will end up like this
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Zenon wins via Power nullification, and BFR. Possibly through bone manipulation.
I am completely and utterly drained. This response took a lot out of me.
However it was more of a blessing than a curse because it made me realize how much I love Black Clover, and I have big plans for this verse on wiki.
Pssing out now. Goodnight. or... morning.
