(APOKOLIPS WAR SPOILERS.) Big Upgrade for Superman and Darkseid.

[PapiSavitar5025]

In the new movie, Darkseid was capable of fending off Trigon i two battles. The first one being much longer than the video is, and in the second one they go on for several minutes off screen. And, after Trigon leaves Superman, he puts up an extended brawl against Darkseid, and, while it isn't shown in the clip, he's even overpowering the New God for quite some time. Seeing as how it wasn't a complete stomp like it was in JL vs TT, and Darkseid was capable of fending off Trigon for multiple minutes like I said, I think that's good enough for an upgrade, or at least a second key.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I can agree with that (sort of). Darkseid is more or less equal (ok, let's say a little bit weaker than but it's so reduced we can say they're on the same level) than Trigon/Superman. Once Trigon is fully released, he dominates Darkseid with no real problem and even if the New God is capable of slowing him down, Trigon is clearly winning but he can still push the demon back to some minor extent. My guess is that Darkseid (and thus Sup) should be upgraded to some point, like "At least Low 7-C, possibly 5-C" or something like that.

Also, that's not exactly the subject but since we're at it :

- Etrigan is upgraded for being vastly superior to the Parademons and Paradooms and equal to Wonder Woman, thus he should go from "At least 9-A, likely higher" (his current tier) to 8-A. And Destiny should get "At least 8-A, likely higher" for his first key since he very easily defeated Etrigan in the past.

- Darkseid was able to seal Trigon (albeit in a diminushed state) so he would get Sealing and it should be added to explain his tier.

- Trigon keeps his actual tier ("At least 5-C, likely higher") but should get a new key for when he possesses Sup ("At least 7-C, possibly/likely 5-C").

- Constantine gets Invisiblity (for himself and others as he did when his team arrived on Apokolips), Telepathy (since he was able to witness Flash's memories about the Flashpoint), Astral Projection and limited Creation for being able to make objects appearing like what he did with the dagger he would use to kill Raven.

- Shazam would get Limited Creation (for being able to create a leg with lightning).

- Not that it was really doubtfull but here, Batman is clearly shown to be way above Damian.

- Zatanna would get Resurrection for being able to revive Constantine (possibly, i'm not sure what happened here).

Probably forgot many things though.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I do agree with a lot of the points, but it should be noted that we only get two scenes of their fight. The first is their punches clashing, and the second is Trigon overpowering Darkseid In a quick brawl. Which would be far more impressive, if Superman didn't so the same thing only for Darkseid to get back up and start fighting more evenly. Anyways the main point I'm making is that he was able to brawl for several minutes, and I do agree that Trigon is obviously stronger.

 

[PowerToScale]

Raven should also get resurrection and she resurrected Damian.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask the following members to comment here if you wish:

Zensum, C2 of Omego, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, SuperAPM, Zark2099, Elizio33

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I've contacted Omegon, Eficiente, Qaws, and Zark.

 

[Eficiente]

I didn't see this movies but it seems like it could be an outlier given the stuff written in Trigon's profile. If it's going to be added then it should be looked through carefully first.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

@Eficiente You mean the fact that Darkseid was able to resist him for some time in his true form?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I share the same sentiments as Eficiente. I haven't gotten to see all the movies but going by what's on Trigon's profile, he's vastly above everyone else by feats. The Justice League was at least able to harm, batter and begin to overwhelm Darkseid by the share weight of numbers back in War.

If Trigon can effortlessly defeat them all without issue, it makes no sense for Darkseid to be able to fight him, even less for Superman as he participated in a team effort. It sadly seems like an outlier due to this.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

It's pretty clear he was seriously restraining himself. He even takes a moment to thank Raven for her "wonderful gift" (a.k.a an enemy that can survive more than a few seconds against him...wich is basically way more than anyone else could say) and in the very brief shots we have, he clearly has the upper hand.

Don't know if it's an outlier exactly but we can still put Darkseid to "At least Low 7-C, possibly/likely higher" and say after the higher that he was able to fend off Trigon but did nothing more. But again, it's clear that Darkseid is way under Trigon.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Superman did not participate in the team effort in the fight against Darkseid, only until after Trigon was forced out of Darkseid they were to begin fighting, and after that encounter Darkseid was able to fight on for several minutes against Trigon, while off screen, it still hapened. It was nowhere near as badly as a stomp as it was in the other movie.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

'S'uperman did not participate in the team effort in the fight against Darkseid...

In Justice League War? Yes, he did, just at the tail end of the fight. He got in multiple blows, heat vision-ed Darkseid's eyes and helped push him into the Boom Tube.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Oh. You mean War. I was talking about Apokolips War. Darkseid was already heavily injured and both of his eyes carved out, negating his main source of attack, physically blind too and he was already on the verge of being knocked back to Apokolyps. No wonder why he was on the defensive so much, but Superman obviously got far stronger, he went from getting one-shot by Darkseid's Omega Beams, to taking a few of them and holding a brawl for several minutes with the New God.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

"It was nowhere near as badly as a stomp as it was in the other movie." The simple fact that Darkseid wasn't one-shot proved it wasn't, i agree. Still, he's nowhere near Trigon's level while still being able to put a fight for some time (putting aside the fact that Trigon was holding back), wich is why i think putting him (and Sup) to "At least Low 7-C, likely higher" is good. That or it might be considered as an outlier.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we leave the profiles as they are then?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Seems like we're gonna need to discuss about this. The debate here is not the only one for Apokolips War, there are other stuff that will need to be discussed (on the general thread for the DC Animated Movies Universe i think), though most shouldn't take long to have a conclusion.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Sun-Eater]

Trigon was far smaller than he was in JL vs TT as well. I don't think there's anything suggest that he was weaken in-universe but meta explanation is they don't want a big name like Darkseid to get utterly destroy in a movie that he's suppose to be the big bad. On one hand, Seid match him when they do punch parry and he last about one minute and half against Trigon without dying, on the other, Trigon was never look like he's in any real danger.

Personally I said both of them remain in their tier, character as powerful as Trigon most likely can alter his size and strength. Maybe he handicapped himself for some good fight?

Oh, and Darkseid trap Trigon with OB, although to my understanding, he's not at full power due to being partially bounded at that point.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Yeah, Trigon gets captured in a weakened form (it's even stated by Constantine that he trapped Trigon to try to persuade him to take him as a host).

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

That is head canon that Trigon was surpressing himself from Moon Level to Small Town level, in the two movies he's been in, he was just as casual as always, we've never seen him rather serious, he's always been frighteningly calm and casual, there's nothing to suggest that he was holding back more than he already does. Darkseid was capable of matching punches with him, both being very casual. There was no noticible wounds on Darkseid during their fight, though it did appear Trigon had the upper hand in martial skill, that's about it. Their punches collided, and in the next scene we can see Trigon out-manuvering and bullying him with superior skill, the only time we see Trigon having superior strength is him catching Darkseid's punch, which, someone on the same tier as someone else can do that pretty easily too.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

So what, we make Darkseid (and Sup and Doomsday) 56c then ? Or we simply put them to "At least Low 7-C, likely higher" ?

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I recommend at least a second key, like with the DCAU profile.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Like a key for Apok War only? Seems weird but I guess it can be used.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I mean there's a key for DCAU for JL vs FF only, so I'm not sure if there's any real problems with it.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Unless you'd think it would be better to up their Tier's to 5-C completely.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I was super against the separate keys for DCAU Superman, especially since we know of his later depiction in Batman Beyond (also I see his Tier 5 AP still has not been fixed).

Personally I say we give Trigon multiple keys or consider the Tier 5 thing an outlier. But I imagine most of you wouldn't be for that, so a specific Tier 5 key for the movie is the best of a bad option imo.

 

[Antvasima]

Please elaborate regarding DCAU Superman.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Currently his 5-C AP justification is "Should be as powerful as he is durable", which has no backing to it and the reasoning doesn't make sense in the first place.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I mean I don't see why we would consider such a feat an outlier. It's obviously meant to show the progression in Strength that character's have gone through since their debut, Darkseid is capable of at least holding his own against Trigon, whom is as casual as he's always been. It's not like Trigon is lashing out full strength against Darkseid.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I say we should put Dark and Sup to "At least Low 7-C, likely higher" with the justification for Darkseid being that he was able to fight Trigon for a certain amount of time even if Trigon was winning and very likely restraining himself (he annihilated an entire world in a matter of seconds before and overpowered the entire JL, including Superman who can harm Darkseid, like if they were nothing, he's obviously restraining here) and we give another key to Trigon for when he possessed Superman with the same tier as Darkseid. And no, i don't think considering a clear on-screen feat of a world destroyed with a moon shattered in the process as an outlier is a good idea or option.

And i agree that the idea of giving a new key based on the fact that it's a different movie is a bad idea, it's the same universe after all.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Again, looking at DCAU Superman kind of negates your argument's final point.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

About giving a new key based on the fact that it's a different movie ?

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Same universe, different movie, different keys. Literally the same thing going on here, like in the other thread.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I mean, i can accept it (i'm not strongly against it) but my idea is that there should be a specific reason for why he's more powerful (like developping new powers or the idea that he hadn't reached his true potential at the time like Thor in the MCU). Then again, i'm not strongly against it, it is Qawsedf who is really opposed to the idea.

What i'm against is the idea of considering Trigon's feat of destroying Azarath as an outlier like suggested above.

 

[PowerToScale]

I was thinking, maybe Trigon gets Healing and Cloth Manipulation. As when he took over Superman he was already poisened (Kryptonite in his blood) and weakened with no top, but once he came out/broke hold of his possesion, he was completely healed and had his clothes

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Don't know for Cloth Manipulation (although it's acceptable) but i agree with Healing, as he literally purged Supes's body from the Kryptonite.

 

[PowerToScale]

Don't know for Cloth Manipulation (although it's acceptable) but i agree with Healing, as he literally purged Supes's body from the Kryptonite.

Cloth Manipulation comes from that fact Supes got a a fresh new fit of clothing. Although, I've seen characters get Matter Manipulation for creating/repairing clothing.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Mmh. Creating clothing is obviously Cloth Manipulation but repairing them can be considered as matter (at least to me). Anyway, i kind of agree with this.

So if we summurize the new powers point :

- Trigon gets Cloth Manipulation and Healing.

- Zatanna and Raven get Resurrrection.

- Constantine gets Telepathy, Invisibility, Limited Creation, Petrification and Astral Projection.

- Shazam gets Limited Creation.

 

[Hellbeast1]

While I'm here

WW tiers get downgraded

Their tier is based upothis calculatio which is deemed invalid under the current revisions as it's based on moving an object at a certain speed which i think is only used for super sized objects.

Adding to this, them staggering Darkseid and Supes should be deemed an outlier since they don't do much damage at all and are generally weaker.

Darkseid also shouldn't scale to Trigon in any means since Sealing is just hax (I'll see if there's any solid feats tho)

I'm also looking If there's any speed feats on my rewatch

 

[PowerToScale]

I'm also looking If there's any speed feats on my rewatch

There was a scene where they are dodging bullets when going up Lex's tower. Probably some good supersonic speed feats there