Apocalymon vs Giratina

[Dragonmasterxyz]

You act as if Apocalymon's needs to stand still. He has countless other attacks like Absolute Zero and Existence Erasure and Death Hax.

He can keep it from being altered not erased. Unless you can prove it in a CRT.

Apocalymon's is always bloodlusted so it wouldn't matter.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Dragon. PaChi is right. If it were infinite, he'd be 2-A given the size of the Digimon multiverse. Anything done in a period of time infinitely is 2-A. So unless he's 2-A, then yes, it's an NLF, hyperbole, outlier, or whatever.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kaltias

Yes it is. Yhwach for example has immunity to precog via absorbing Mimihagi as Mimihagi is able to escape the eyes of the Almighty, eyes that see all possible futures.

Going by that, Dialga is literally the concept of time itself and unlike the Almighty, Dialga can very well witness all events throughout the past, present and future all at once for BEING those past, present and futures. The fact Giratina is able to fight against and even give the drop on Dialga suggests Giratina is able to escape his view of time just like Mimihagi can towards the Almighty, implying an immunity to precog.

 

[Kaltias]

1) If anything, only Unsealed Dialga could do this, seeing how sealed Dialga isn't omnipresent throughout time

2) Being omnipresent throughout time doesn't grant precog

3) Fighting someone who has precog is possible even if you don't negate it

 

[PaChi2]

You act as if Apocalymon's needs to stand still. He has countless other attacks like Absolute Zero and Existence Erasure and Death Hax.

He can keep it from being altered not erased. Unless you can prove it in a CRT.

Apocalymon's is always bloodlusted so it wouldn't matter.

Power Negation (as long as it exists, neither world can be destroyed),

From giratina's page.

Once he is in the DW, its end.

@Executor Apocalymon's true form isnt used in the battle, so we just stick to the avatar, if the avatar loses, he loses. I think that's the way its done in vs debating (otherwise how do any of the Seven Demon Lords lose if their higher avatar's can respawn the bodies?).

And what's apocalymon's true form? the Dawn and Dusk one?

 

[PaChi2]

1) If anything, only Unsealed Dialga could do this, seeing how sealed Dialga isn't omnipresent throughout time

2) Being omnipresent throughout time doesn't grant precog

3) Fighting someone who has precog is possible even if you don't negate it

Giratina has some precog on his own, so... I think precot isnt an advantage here for either side.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1) Fair enough here

2) How does being omnipresent throughout time not grant you precog? You are literally viewing all events throughout time.

3) This isnt negating precog its just escaping its view. For example Mimihagi doesnt negate the Almightys precog, he himself is just naturally outside what its eyes can view, hence Yhwach's immunity after absorbing him. Giratina would be in the same boat. And yes its possible but there are diff levels of precog and it surely isnt possible to fight against temporal precog that views all time-based events simutaneously without existing outside of space-time.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, why exactly aren't we talking about what Giratina has that can put down Apocalymon instead of almost exclusively talking about Apocalymon's powers.

 

[NeoZex6399]

Shadow Force can ignore shields and precognition.

 

[PaChi2]

@Cal as I said before: if Giratina bfrs, its 100% win.

Otherwise, I think Giratina can shadow force his way through Apocalymon's techniques, tho the latter one seems to have the upper hand haxwise.

 

[Executor_N0]

@PaChi2 The true form of Apocalymon is the darkness in the Darkness Zone, they wanted a body to manifest and thus destroy the universe and for that they created the body we know. The difference between this and the SGDL is that the true form of Apocalymon is already in combat and at any moment can be invoked, just cast the Darkness Zone, while the SGDL does not. And did not think there were rules about it, so much so that they always say that Arceus can come back to exist because it is a manifestation body of Original One (They say that same in the Low version 2-C of the Arceus).

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

N0 is right about manifestation rules. Though how do we know the darkness isn't all inside Apocalymon? I've proven that Arceus' main consciousness doesn't exist in a single body. Is that the same case for Apocalymon?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Cal Dude. I said erasing countless universes overtime is not NLF.... And Low 2-C can do that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It says infinite. If it's infinite in a verse with infinite universes (at least), then not every Low 2-C can do that.

 

[Executor_N0]

@Cal

The body that was created to destroy! He's the largest Digimon there is!! Within the Dark Space that seemed to spread forever, the more the hatred within him grew the more gigantic Apocalymon's body became! This is everything that's left of those who disappeared from system of evolution!!

Over time, Digimon have gone through all kinds of evolution to get where we are now. However among them there were an innumerable amount of species that disappeared because they couldn't evolve. Apocalymon was born when their grudge were given a physical form!!

Apocalymon Speech

Okay, there are the scenes referring to that. As you can see Darkness Zone is not inside Apocalymon.

 

[PaChi2]

@Executor

If that is true, both arceus and Apocalymon need Low-godly regen in their lower forms.

However, I think Apocalymon wasnt instantly born, iirc it took time for him to appear. Also, once he was defeated, he didnt instantly respawn. So its likely that Apocalymon needs time to recreate a body.

Anyway, giratina has multi-universal travel, he could attack the Darness Zone?

 

[Kaltias]

@Kukui

Being omnipresent throughout time doesn't grant precog for the same reason why being tier 2 doesn't grant time paradox immunity/ immeasurable speed by default. Even if it's logical, that's not how fiction does it

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui
Being omnipresent throughout time doesn't grant precog for the same reason why being tier 2 doesn't grant time paradox immunity/ immeasurable speed by default. Even if it's logical, that's not how fiction does it

Forgive me, but this sort of doesnt answer my question. I don't even see how both have anything to do with each other. You can be a tier 2 and have none of that added to the package. But what I don't understand is how can you not be aware of all events that happen throughout time when you are time. And we know Dialga witnesses events in the time stream such as when he sent Ash and co. back in time in the Arceus movie and the instant they completed what they needed to do he called them back.

 

[Kaltias]

1) Dialga never actually used it in combat.

2) Embodying time =/= Perceiving all the possible time. I can't perceive everything that is going on in my body.

3) Correct me if i'm wrong, but what brought them back was the time paradox caused by the fact that they had no more reason to be in the past.

4) There is also the whole complicated thing about how 4D beings move linearly trough a higher dimensional time so that perceiving regular time kinda doesn't help understanding what they do.

Also, sorry for the derailing cal

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1) Because the only beings who he's ever fought against were Palkia, Giratina and their creator Arceus so temporal precog wouldn't work against them.

2) Not true in this case. Dialga watches over time in the pokeverse and has witnessed events taking place throughout time as mentioned. He saw them give the jewel to Arceus, he teleported them further through time, he can see when Sheena calls out for him, he even saw when Arceus was attacking Michina Town.

3) No that's wrong. You might be confusing it with the PIS Arceus dying scene. That's when the time paradox kicked in. When actually going back to the future Dialga summoned them back and Sheena even said "Dialga is calling".

4) Sort of confused here but I'll leave that alone.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

While all you guys are arguing this here, you're all derailing the thread. Just make a CRT.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

My bad Dragon. Will do in a bit.