Hyper Sonic vs Giratina

[DaReaperMan]

Alright then. Might try putting Xeno Goku against Giratina next

I won't be there, so have fun I guess

 

[FaceOff81]

That really doesn't matter, I'm here to correct the misconception, not debate the match because honest to God I don't give a rat's ass about Sonic lol

Yeah, a scaling chain from Baseline 2-A... so Baseline 2-A cause we both know what infinity multiplied by anything is. Giratina's true form is inaccessible to both Palkia and Dialga, two things which are Baseline 2-A and form the 2-A Pokémon multiverse, without literally letting them into the distortion world... which is Giratina's true form. The same inaccessible relationship applied to Giratina and Arceus when the latter was 2-A only. Unless you have very explicit proof of inaccessibility(which Giratina has for it's true form), you're basically stuck at Baseline 2-A no matter how big your infinite balls are or how far you can launch those balls

Then why were you previously debating in your previous response to my post? You were claiming how Sonic isn't going to do anything to Giratina even though I was providing my reasoning on why I believe that. You ignored everything I had previously said and just brushed it off as nothing but me "throwing a bunch of fluff that doesn't really matter" restated both of your claims. You were debating me on this yet you ignore everything I say. So, yes it DOES matter. Thank you for admitting that you don't care about Sonic. Now I know the type of person I am dealing with now since I can infer based on your response that you don't know that much about Sonic or his abilities.

Regarding Giratina's role in forming the Pokemon multiverse, he, Dialga, and Palkia were the three who did so. Not just Dialga and Palkia like how you described it as. When looking at both Dialga and Palkia's profile, we see that at their peak, they are labeled as baseline 2-A but are considered higher in their true forms making them above the baseline 2-A. When looking at Giratina's profile, we see he is labeled as baseline 2-A but is considered to scale higher than baseline 2-A with his Origin Form and far higher his True Avatar Form. Of course both Dialga and Palkia are not going to be able to have access in getting into the distortion world because Giratina's Origin form scales higher and Giratina's True Avatar form scales far higher compared to their status in baseline 2-A and above with their True Avatar forms.

Now, when comparing Giratina to Sonic's profile, it states he ALSO scales above baseline 2-A. For Sonic's case, it's his Super Form at his peak (with the Super Sonic Boost and Arrow of Light) that is considered higher than baseline 2-A. Going further beyond, his Hyper Form scales far higher than his Super Form, and his Hyper Form at his peak (with the Super Sonic Boost and Arrow of Light) being considered higher than that. At the very least, we know that Hyper Sonic at his peak has gained more amps in AP compared to Giratina's Origin and True Avatar forms (being 3-2 in Sonic's favor) above the baseline 2-A tier.

While Giratina's True Avatar Form is considered to be Nigh-Omnipresent, due to the speed amps being placed on top of Sonic's Super and Hyper Forms, it should either eventually close the gap, or make the gap much closer than before regarding range and speed. Looking into Giratina's NEP, it is stated to be "It's nonexisent in nature but still exists" and "Giratina embodies the concept of Nothingness/Nonexistence. Lacks a spirit". We know that Sonic was trapped in and broke out of/affected a space that was labeled as "A closed off space where absolutely nothing exists" it's clear that Sonic's Base form let alone Super and Hyper forms would be able to affect something that is the "embodiment of Nothingness/Nonexistence". With all of this in mind, Hyper Sonic would most certainly be able to gain access with his Hyper Form, greatly resist anything Giratina can throw at him, and thanks to my explanation with Base Sonic breaking out of Null Space, he should also be able to perform some level of NEP against Giratina. Even if he can't interact with Giratina's NEP, he still greatly resists anything Giratina can throw at him making this match inconclusive at the very least.

 

[FaceOff81]

He won't even be able to get to the true form lol

Yes he would.

 

[DaReaperMan]

If we're dismissing pretty blatant feats then why don't I dismiss that Sonic is 2-A hmmmm?

 

[Spilxson2]

I'm almost wondering if this arguing about who can affect the other is enough to call this Inconclusive... almost

 

[FaceOff81]

If we're dismissing pretty blatant feats then why don't I dismiss that Sonic is 2-A hmmmm?

I’m not dismissing blatant feats. I’m providing my reasoning why Sonic would either be able to defeat and resist Giratina’s abilities. Please stop arguing in bad faith.

 

[FaceOff81]

I'm almost wondering if this arguing about who can affect the other is enough to call this Inconclusive... almost

At the absolute worst, it’s inconclusive. I showed my reasoning in why I believe Sonic would win and why Super Sonic would be enough as opposed to Hyper Sonic, but at this point, putting inconclusive regarding this match would make sense.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I’m not dismissing blatant feats. I’m providing my reasoning why Sonic would either be able to defeat and resist Giratina’s abilities. Please stop arguing in bad faith.

You stop first.

The Distortion World in inaccessible to things with baseline 2-A range(Palkia and Dialga)

Oops! That means it's inaccessible to Sonic too seeing as he doesn't have anything inaccessible to baseline 2-A range in his kit.

The CT might be comparable in true forms even if Giratina has the better avatars usually, but if you're gonna do advanced mental gymnastics to try and say Giratina's true form isn't inaccessible, then I'm not exactly gonna be kind in this F&G thread

 

[FaceOff81]

You stop first.

The Distortion World in inaccessible to things with baseline 2-A range(Palkia and Dialga)

Oops! That means it's inaccessible to Sonic too seeing as he doesn't have anything inaccessible to baseline 2-A range in his kit.

The CT might be comparable in true forms even if Giratina has the better avatars usually, but if you're gonna do advanced mental gymnastics to try and say Giratina's true form isn't inaccessible, then I'm not exactly gonna be kind in this F&G thread

You were the one here who was acting in bad faith first such as ignoring any of my arguments, my reasoning, and everything in general. Your admission of you not caring about Sonic/his profile and ignoring any counterpoints is proof to me that you're only here to either act in bad faith, or just wanted to muddy the waters in this discussion.

Never did I state once that Giratina's True Form was inaccessible. I did however compared him and Sonic together and concluded that Sonic would be able to match if not surpass his true form. If you read my previous giant response, you would see that I explained why Dialga and Palkia wouldn't be able to have access to Giratina's True form due to them being placed in a lower tier of baseline 2-A compared to Giratina. I then compared that with Sonic and his amps within his Super Form being able to not only match, but surpass not only the baseline 2-A tier, but also Giratina's True From regarding accessibility. I also explained how him being able to break out of/affect a dimension that is considered to be "Absolutely Nothing" would mean he would be able to interact with/damage Giratina's NEP. Now, stop acting in bad faith please.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You were the one here who was acting in bad faith first such as ignoring any of my arguments, my reasoning, and everything in general. Your admission of you not caring about Sonic/his profile and ignoring any counterpoints is proof to me that you're only here to either act in bad faith, or just wanted to muddy the waters in this discussion.

Never did I state once that Giratina's True Form was inaccessible. I did however compared him and Sonic together and concluded that Sonic would be able to match if not surpass his true form. If you read my previous giant response, you would see that I explained why Dialga and Palkia wouldn't be able to have access to Giratina's True form due to them being placed in a lower tier of baseline 2-A compared to Giratina. I then compared that with Sonic and his amps within his Super Form being able to not only match, but surpass not only the baseline 2-A tier, but also Giratina's True From regarding accessibility. I also explained how him being able to break out of/affect a dimension that is considered to be "Absolutely Nothing" would mean he would be able to interact with/damage Giratina's NEP. Now, stop acting in bad faith please.

Is that a concession that no matter what Sonic does, he isn't getting to Giratina's true form?

Cause that was my point in the first place!

 

[FaceOff81]

Is that a concession that no matter what Sonic does, he isn't getting to Giratina's true form?

At this point, I'm convinced you're just trolling. Re-read all of my posts regarding on why I think Sonic either beats Giratina, or shows that this match is inconclusive. I've tackled and debunked all of your arguments yet you ignore everything I say and engage in bad faith whenever I respond. Go find another thread to muddy the waters in.

 

[DaReaperMan]

At this point, I'm convinced you're just trolling. Re-read all of my posts regarding on why I think Sonic either beats Giratina, or shows that this match is inconclusive. I've tackled and debunked all of your arguments yet you ignore everything I say and engage in bad faith whenever I respond. Go find another thread to muddy the waters in.

How does Sonic beat someone he can't even get to? Or... even touch, while I'm on that. That's really it at the end of the day, Sonic can't touch Giratina, so it stalls him out. He can't get to it, either, so it stalls him out.

Sonic can have every other advantage but if he can't break Giratina's broken defenses he's not getting anything but an inconclusive. It is literally impossible lol

If you don't like that very simple fact... that's fair, I want Giratina to actually be matchable, not just stall out every damn fight against something it really should just lose to like Sonic, it's an incon machine and not the good kind

 

[FaceOff81]

How does Sonic beat someone he can't even get to? Or... even touch, while I'm on that. That's really it at the end of the day, Sonic can't touch Giratina, so it stalls him out. He can't get to it, either, so it stalls him out.

Sonic can have every other advantage but if he can't break Giratina's broken defenses he's not getting anything but an inconclusive. It is literally impossible lol

If you don't like that very simple fact... that's fair, I want Giratina to actually be matchable, not just stall out every damn fight against something it really should just lose to like Sonic, it's an incon machine and not the good kind

I already told you to re-read my previous responses as I addressed how Sonic would be able to do so. While I do agree that if Sonic isn't able to damage Giratina's True Form due to Giratina's NEP, the match would be Inconclusive. HOWEVER, in my previous responses, I HAVE addressed that and shown how Sonic would not only be able to, but on why I believe he would win. I hate that you keep brining up this same argument while ignoring everything I had already said previously. That's why I keep telling you to re-read my responses.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I already told you to re-read my previous responses as I addressed how Sonic would be able to do so. While I do agree that if Sonic isn't able to damage Giratina's True Form due to Giratina's NEP, the match would be Inconclusive. HOWEVER, in my previous responses, I HAVE addressed that and shown how Sonic would not only be able to, but on why I believe he would win. I hate that you keep brining up this same argument while ignoring everything I had already said previously. That's why I keep telling you to re-read my responses.

Well make a CRT to make Sonic's range above baseline 2-A... Spoiler alert, the requirements of getting that are specific and overcomplicated to the point you might as well not even try.

Okay, show me Sonic's Non-Physical Interaction towards NEP Type 1 Aspect 1! Go ahead! You can find something in IDW or one of the over five dozen Sonic games to then make a Content Revision Thread to put that onto Sonic's prodile.

 

[FaceOff81]

Well make a CRT to make Sonic's range above baseline 2-A... Spoiler alert, the requirements of getting that are specific and overcomplicated to the point you might as well not even try.

Okay, show me Sonic's Non-Physical Interaction towards NEP Type 1 Aspect 1! Go ahead! You can find something in IDW or one of the over five dozen Sonic games to then make a Content Revision Thread to put that onto Sonic's prodile.

I already explained both of those within previous response of mine. I'll link you the responses that have that info:

Base Sonic was able to break out of Null Space through a double boost. Null Space was classified by Doctor Eggman as "a closed off space where absolutely nothing exists." In Null Space, Sonic described it as "A prison that goes on forever." and when he escaped, he states "Nothing happened. Literally." pertaining to Null Space. While Sonic was with the Custom Character Avatar when this had happened, when powering up into at least his Super Form, he would be able to break out of there alone. That alone should pertain to Sonic being able to have so sort of NEP interaction in his base form if he's able to break out of/affect a space that is the essence of nothingness. While his profile classifies it as "Pocket Reality Manipulation & Enhanced Dimensional Travel", I disagree that it should only be labeled as such since Null Space was described by Doctor Eggman as "a closed off space where absolutely nothing exists." Being able to break out of/affect the essence of nothingness should be labeled as some sort of NEP interaction. This should upscale with going into his Excalibur, Darkspine, Super, and Hyper Forms respectively. I will link the cutscenes/gameplay YouTube videos if necessary.

Moving on, in Sonic Generations, we see Base Sonic was able to not only survive "Void Manipulation, Existence Erasure, & Greater Time Manipulation" as when the Time Eater erased history and left everything as a colorless void known as White Space, it was specifically noted that White Space needed Classic and Modern Sonic's speed to restore its flow of time, but he is able to perform "Void Manipulation (Conversion to Existence), Life Manipulation, & Space-Time Manipulation" as "through his running. It’s noted by Classic Tails that when the Time Eater travels through time, it tears space apart and results in said locations being left as a void that leaves them "empty and dead". As stated by Modern Tails, both Sonics are able to accelerate through time to repair space as a consequence of their running; something he describes as “returning color and life”. In the JP script, the Sonics are noted to be restoring the flow of time by them running."

Coupling that with Base Sonic being able to interact with beings that are considered "Non-Physical", we see that he was able to
"tag the Hyudoros and Boos with his attacks. Is likely capable of destroying Dark Gaia Nightmares and other Dark Gaia creatures like his Werehog self, which are manifestations of the ambient fears, doubts, and anger of people across the world." Furthermore, we see he "is able to naturally hit Vector's musical notes" and how Super Sonic was able to attack Solaris' consciousness, he would be able to have Non-Physical Interaction with characters on Solaris' level.

Moving on to another resistance, we see that he also has "Conceptual Mind Manipulation" since he is "able to shrug off the wave of energy that allowed Dark Gaia's creatures to be formed across the entirety of the planet, which are conceptual in nature."

Another resistance he has is "Reality Warping & Law Manipulation" as he "left unaffected by Alf Layla-Wa Layla warping the Arabian Nights reality and leaving it a distorted void despite being a part of the story, a fundamental principle that the Arabian Nights' reality functions on."

Another power would include how he has an "Indomitable Will" through how "his unbreakable spirit made Sage question his ability to persist despite being in a state where he could barely stand, allowing her to realize his drive comes from protecting those precious to him. Despite the various challenges and threats he faced during his time on the Starfall Islands, be it enduring his Cyber Corruption to hazardous encounters with the Titans, The End stated that Sonic's courage had never wavered."


Adding on to this, we see that he also utilizes "Resistance Negation through Chaos Control, Chaos Emeralds can stop time and freeze the likes of Tails in place despite him being shown to be unaffected by other means of Time Stop, such as through the Time Switch. They can also manipulate time to either slow or freeze the likes of Sonic, Shadow, and Silver in place; each of whom were unaffected by White Space, a void that specifically needed Classic and Modern Sonic's speed to restore its flow of time." Of course, this isn't the only resistance that he would be able to negate. We see that Chaos Control is also classified as "Reality Warping Ability; Chaos Control is a reality warping skill and allows it’s user to control the fabric of the universe. The Emeralds themselves are stated to be able to perform miracles and amplify the extent of this power." Because of Chaos Control being utilized as a reality warping tool and a resistance negation tool, it should also be able to translate to other resistance negation abilities other than time stop such as reality warping. Of course, I could be wrong on that front but at the same time, reality warping is an extremely overpowered power.

Of course, Giratina has that ability to reality warp as well, but not only is he not resistant if his opponent does it, but unlike Sonic, he wouldn't be able to negate those resistances. The only real advantage he has here is his NEP. Even if Super Sonic wouldn't be able to interact with Giratina due to Giratina's NEP, he still greatly resists anything that Giratina could throw at him. Keep in mind that I didn't even mention all of the other powers, resistances, and statistics amplifications that Sonic has in not only his base form, but also his Super and Hyper Forms. At worst, this match is inconclusive since Giratina can't really kill Super Sonic due to reistences and vise versa due to NEP. However, with the evidence that I have presented, I do believe that Super Sonic let alone Hyper Sonic would be able to interact with NEP and take out Giratina.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "Giratina's true form might as well be the example of how being inaccessible to Baseline 2-A works in terms of getting higher into the tier."? On Sonic's Profile, at his strongest within his Super Forms, he is classified of being higher than Baseline 2-A. His Hyper Form upscales from that to even higher and adding statistic amplifications on top of that, it gets even higher. I created a Sonic Profile Revision thread in hopes of making this easier for those who want to get a proper understanding of him at his peak. Here is the link to the profile: https://vsbattles.com/threads/moder...ap-speed-and-statistics-amplification.157914/

Then why were you previously debating in your previous response to my post? You were claiming how Sonic isn't going to do anything to Giratina even though I was providing my reasoning on why I believe that. You ignored everything I had previously said and just brushed it off as nothing but me "throwing a bunch of fluff that doesn't really matter" restated both of your claims. You were debating me on this yet you ignore everything I say. So, yes it DOES matter. Thank you for admitting that you don't care about Sonic. Now I know the type of person I am dealing with now since I can infer based on your response that you don't know that much about Sonic or his abilities.

Regarding Giratina's role in forming the Pokemon multiverse, he, Dialga, and Palkia were the three who did so. Not just Dialga and Palkia like how you described it as. When looking at both Dialga and Palkia's profile, we see that at their peak, they are labeled as baseline 2-A but are considered higher in their true forms making them above the baseline 2-A. When looking at Giratina's profile, we see he is labeled as baseline 2-A but is considered to scale higher than baseline 2-A with his Origin Form and far higher his True Avatar Form. Of course both Dialga and Palkia are not going to be able to have access in getting into the distortion world because Giratina's Origin form scales higher and Giratina's True Avatar form scales far higher compared to their status in baseline 2-A and above with their True Avatar forms.

Now, when comparing Giratina to Sonic's profile, it states he ALSO scales above baseline 2-A. For Sonic's case, it's his Super Form at his peak (with the Super Sonic Boost and Arrow of Light) that is considered higher than baseline 2-A. Going further beyond, his Hyper Form scales far higher than his Super Form, and his Hyper Form at his peak (with the Super Sonic Boost and Arrow of Light) being considered higher than that. At the very least, we know that Hyper Sonic at his peak has gained more amps in AP compared to Giratina's Origin and True Avatar forms (being 3-2 in Sonic's favor) above the baseline 2-A tier.

While Giratina's True Avatar Form is considered to be Nigh-Omnipresent, due to the speed amps being placed on top of Sonic's Super and Hyper Forms, it should either eventually close the gap, or make the gap much closer than before regarding range and speed. Looking into Giratina's NEP, it is stated to be "It's nonexisent in nature but still exists" and "Giratina embodies the concept of Nothingness/Nonexistence. Lacks a spirit". We know that Sonic was trapped in and broke out of/affected a space that was labeled as "A closed off space where absolutely nothing exists" it's clear that Sonic's Base form let alone Super and Hyper forms would be able to affect something that is the "embodiment of Nothingness/Nonexistence". With all of this in mind, Hyper Sonic would most certainly be able to gain access with his Hyper Form, greatly resist anything Giratina can throw at him, and thanks to my explanation with Base Sonic breaking out of Null Space, he should also be able to perform some level of NEP against Giratina. Even if he can't interact with Giratina's NEP, he still greatly resists anything Giratina can throw at him making this match inconclusive at the very least.

Even though it's already present within the first response, I will link my Profile Revision Thread here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/moder...ap-speed-and-statistics-amplification.157914/