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Hyper Sonic vs Giratina
- Thread starter Spilxson2
- Start date
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bro...sonic cant interact with giratina coz of the NEP
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Are you able to elaborate on what NEP is?
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a nonexistent aspect of a character
i think of it as a higher version of incorporeality
sonic has no feats of interacting with nep like that
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He has attacked Solaris’s consciousness in his Super Form so he does have access to interacting with aspects that are not physical. Furthermore, he has resistances to Dark Gia’s Conceptual Manipulation so that does give him an edge here.
Furthermore, AP Wise:
Super Sonic = 2-A -> Super Sonic with Super Sonic Boost and Arrow of Light = Higher -> Hyper Sonic = Far Higher -> Hyper Sonic with Super Sonic Boost and Arrow of Light -> Even Higher
Speed wise:
Super Sonic = Immeasurable -> Hyper Sonic = Far Higher
With all of this in mind, Hyper Sonic would not only be able to overpower Giratina in AP, but also can keep up in speed. Throwing in all of his haxes, Hyper Sonic should be able to take Giratina out for good.
My vote goes out to Hyper Sonic
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- Thread starter
- #6
Would it be fine if I made it Super Sonic then?
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Yeah. That would be more fair.
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- Thread starter
- #8
Alright I changed it to Super Sonic. I didn't see Non-Existence Physiology on Solaris' page so I still don't know if Sonic can attack Giratina. Might vote Inconclusive if neither of them can affect each other but I'm going to wait for more input since I'm not a Sonic expert
I'll also wait for more input on whether or not I should equalize speed or if it won't matter
I'll also wait for more input on whether or not I should equalize speed or if it won't matter
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Well, attacking a conscious should count as non-physical damage so there shouldn’t be a reason why not Super Sonic can attack Giratina even with NEP. Furthermore, due to Solaris having a Higher Dimensional Existence and Super Sonic scaling to that, Super Sonic should be able to attack Giratina in that regard as well.
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- Thread starter
- #10
Alright well I'll count it as one vote for Super Sonic until someone explains otherwise
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attacking something that is non physical isnt enough to interact with NEP....without further context
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With access to a higher dimensional existence, it should be possible. Also, how so? Super Sonic was able to do so on a higher dimensional being so there should be a level of tangible attacks he can do against Giratina (especially with Super Sonic Boost and Arrow of Light)
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man idk how to explain it to you
but sonic cant interact with characters who have better NEP, look at this thread for example
Sonic vs Wei Huo
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(Modern) VS https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Wei_Huo SBA Speed =
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You never answered any of my questions towards you in my previous response. Are you trying to say that this match is inconclusive if that’s the case? Furthermore, when looking at The End’s profile, I see that Super Sonic was able to defeat it (alongside Sage of course) with Super Sonic dealing the final blow. So, Super Sonic should be able to attack beings that contain a level of NEP. Thus, Super Sonic can fight Giratina. Fortunately, this isn’t Hyper Sonic being used otherwise this match would be over pretty quickly.man idk how to explain it to you
but sonic cant interact with characters who have better NEP, look at this thread for example
Sonic vs Wei Huo
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(Modern) VS https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Wei_Huo SBA Speed =vsbattles.com
Oliver_de_jesus
He/Him- 23,304
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The End will lose his NEP iirc
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And even if Sonic can interact with the ends NEP, the ends NEP and Giratinas NEP are completely different
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No, im not saying this is inconclusive
im saying this might be a stomp for giratina coz sonic has no way of interacting with him while giratina has all the time to attack
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- Thread starter
- #18
Doesn't Sonic have Immeasurable speed though? What does Giratina have that Sonic doesn't resist?
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How?
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That shouldn’t be possible due to Super Sonic being a higher dimensional being and able to harm beings on that tier like Solaris and The End
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Nothing to my knowledge.
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sonic being higher dimensional isn't accepted on the profile
thats an NLF. interacting with someone who has HDE doesn't mean you can interact with someone who has NEP.
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What I meant to say was being able to harm a higher dimensional being. It does mean you can if you’re able to resist, outhax, have higher AP/Speed, exist in a higher plane of existence compared to the being that has NEP, and/or a combination of all of that.
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using this logic any smurf character who can interact with a higher dimensional being can interact with NEP even though they have no feats of doing so
we dont do things like that
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I don’t mean interact. I mean damage/be able to kill the enemy.
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how is sonic gonna damage/be able to kill giratina
coz NEP ignores AP
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Being able to harm higher dimensional beings should allow him to harm those with NEP due to his attacks affecting those who live/operate on a higher dimensional plane. Furthermore, Super Sonic was able to damage an enemy that has NEP (being The End) so he should be able to do the same here.
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thats a straight up NLF
we dont treat people who can interact with higher dimensional beings mean they can interact with NEP
the end's NEP and Giratina's NEP are completely different
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You still never answered my previous question on how The End’s NEP is different from Giratina’s.
Ignoring that, while being higher dimensional does range in what tier of dimensionality, depending on the tier of dimensionality, they should be able to damage users wielding NEP. Considering that Super Sonic was able to defeat higher dimensional beings such as Solaris, Dark Gaia, Time Eater, and The End that had either Void Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation type properties, Higher Dimensional Manipulation, and/or NEP (in The End’s case), it’s clear that Super Sonic not only has resistance to those, but also is able to harm those same beings that posses abilities as well.
Furthermore, having NEP just means the user isn’t affected by typical conventional abilities. When trying to damage those users who do have those abilities, the best way to do so is either through Conceptual Manipulation/Hax, Void Manipulation/Hax, and/or Higher Dimensional Existence/Manipulation/Hax. While Super Sonic doesn’t necessarily have Higher Dimensional Existence/Manipulation, he can damage beings who are
In conclusion, Super Sonic resists anything Giratina can throw at him and is able to outmaneuver him AP/Hax wise. That’s why Super Sonic wins.
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Oh I forgot to add that Sonic broke out of Null Space in base form. A space that is LITERALLY nothing. So, even more proof that he can interact/damage users wielding NEP.
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Giratina's NEP is basically physical and Spiritual nonexistence as type 1 Aspect 1, while The End's NEP is all but worthless as type 3 aspect 5, meaning it isn't physically or spiritually nonexistent like Giratina is, meaning Sonic can't hurt Giratina as he lacks the proper Non-Physical Interaction to do so
Giratina ALSO has Higher Dimensional Existence(HDE for short) of a 4-D level, the same as Sonic's Higher Dimensional Manipulation, you can infer from the profile that Giratina's Nonexistent Physiology is also 4-D, meaning that even if for some ungodly reason you could bypass NEP with a higher-dimensional beatstick, Sonic's is not 5-D and as such is unable to dog Giratina like that.
This isn't even getting into the fact Sonic lacks the range to do anything to True form Giratina, as he is baseline 2-A and Giratina's true form might as well be the example of how being inaccessible to Baseline 2-A works in terms of getting higher into the tier. It isn't simple, but Pokémon manages.
Giratina ALSO has Higher Dimensional Existence(HDE for short) of a 4-D level, the same as Sonic's Higher Dimensional Manipulation, you can infer from the profile that Giratina's Nonexistent Physiology is also 4-D, meaning that even if for some ungodly reason you could bypass NEP with a higher-dimensional beatstick, Sonic's is not 5-D and as such is unable to dog Giratina like that.
This isn't even getting into the fact Sonic lacks the range to do anything to True form Giratina, as he is baseline 2-A and Giratina's true form might as well be the example of how being inaccessible to Baseline 2-A works in terms of getting higher into the tier. It isn't simple, but Pokémon manages.
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I see your understanding regarding The End's NEP. My main issue here is that you're not bringing up the fact that Base Sonic was able to break out of Null Space through a double boost. Null Space was classified by Doctor Eggman as "a closed off space where absolutely nothing exists." In Null Space, Sonic described it as "A prison that goes on forever." and when he escaped, he states "Nothing happened. Literally." pertaining to Null Space. While Sonic was with the Custom Character Avatar when this had happened, when powering up into at least his Super Form, he would be able to break out of there alone. That alone should pertain to Sonic being able to have so sort of NEP interaction in his base form if he's able to break out of/affect a space that is the essence of nothingness. While his profile classifies it as "Pocket Reality Manipulation & Enhanced Dimensional Travel", I disagree that it should only be labeled as such since Null Space was described by Doctor Eggman as "a closed off space where absolutely nothing exists." Being able to break out of/affect the essence of nothingness should be labeled as some sort of NEP interaction. This should upscale with going into his Excalibur, Darkspine, Super, and Hyper Forms respectively. I will link the cutscenes/gameplay YouTube videos if necessary.
Moving on, in Sonic Generations, we see Base Sonic was able to not only survive "Void Manipulation, Existence Erasure, & Greater Time Manipulation" as when the Time Eater erased history and left everything as a colorless void known as White Space, it was specifically noted that White Space needed Classic and Modern Sonic's speed to restore its flow of time, but he is able to perform "Void Manipulation (Conversion to Existence), Life Manipulation, & Space-Time Manipulation" as "through his running. It’s noted by Classic Tails that when the Time Eater travels through time, it tears space apart and results in said locations being left as a void that leaves them "empty and dead". As stated by Modern Tails, both Sonics are able to accelerate through time to repair space as a consequence of their running; something he describes as “returning color and life”. In the JP script, the Sonics are noted to be restoring the flow of time by them running."
Coupling that with Base Sonic being able to interact with beings that are considered "Non-Physical", we see that he was able to
"tag the Hyudoros and Boos with his attacks. Is likely capable of destroying Dark Gaia Nightmares and other Dark Gaia creatures like his Werehog self, which are manifestations of the ambient fears, doubts, and anger of people across the world." Furthermore, we see he "is able to naturally hit Vector's musical notes" and how Super Sonic was able to attack Solaris' consciousness, he would be able to have Non-Physical Interaction with characters on Solaris' level.
Moving on to another resistance, we see that he also has "Conceptual Mind Manipulation" since he is "able to shrug off the wave of energy that allowed Dark Gaia's creatures to be formed across the entirety of the planet, which are conceptual in nature."
Another resistance he has is "Reality Warping & Law Manipulation" as he "left unaffected by Alf Layla-Wa Layla warping the Arabian Nights reality and leaving it a distorted void despite being a part of the story, a fundamental principle that the Arabian Nights' reality functions on."
Another power would include how he has an "Indomitable Will" through how "his unbreakable spirit made Sage question his ability to persist despite being in a state where he could barely stand, allowing her to realize his drive comes from protecting those precious to him. Despite the various challenges and threats he faced during his time on the Starfall Islands, be it enduring his Cyber Corruption to hazardous encounters with the Titans, The End stated that Sonic's courage had never wavered."
Adding on to this, we see that he also utilizes "Resistance Negation through Chaos Control, Chaos Emeralds can stop time and freeze the likes of Tails in place despite him being shown to be unaffected by other means of Time Stop, such as through the Time Switch. They can also manipulate time to either slow or freeze the likes of Sonic, Shadow, and Silver in place; each of whom were unaffected by White Space, a void that specifically needed Classic and Modern Sonic's speed to restore its flow of time." Of course, this isn't the only resistance that he would be able to negate. We see that Chaos Control is also classified as "Reality Warping Ability; Chaos Control is a reality warping skill and allows it’s user to control the fabric of the universe. The Emeralds themselves are stated to be able to perform miracles and amplify the extent of this power." Because of Chaos Control being utilized as a reality warping tool and a resistance negation tool, it should also be able to translate to other resistance negation abilities other than time stop such as reality warping. Of course, I could be wrong on that front but at the same time, reality warping is an extremely overpowered power.
Of course, Giratina has that ability to reality warp as well, but not only is he not resistant if his opponent does it, but unlike Sonic, he wouldn't be able to negate those resistances. The only real advantage he has here is his NEP. Even if Super Sonic wouldn't be able to interact with Giratina due to Giratina's NEP, he still greatly resists anything that Giratina could throw at him. Keep in mind that I didn't even mention all of the other powers, resistances, and statistics amplifications that Sonic has in not only his base form, but also his Super and Hyper Forms. At worst, this match is inconclusive since Giratina can't really kill Super Sonic due to reistences and vise versa due to NEP. However, with the evidence that I have presented, I do believe that Super Sonic let alone Hyper Sonic would be able to interact with NEP and take out Giratina.
Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "Giratina's true form might as well be the example of how being inaccessible to Baseline 2-A works in terms of getting higher into the tier."? On Sonic's Profile, at his strongest within his Super Forms, he is classified of being higher than Baseline 2-A. His Hyper Form upscales from that to even higher and adding statistic amplifications on top of that, it gets even higher. I created a Sonic Profile Revision thread in hopes of making this easier for those who want to get a proper understanding of him at his peak. Here is the link to the profile: https://vsbattles.com/threads/moder...ap-speed-and-statistics-amplification.157914/
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I love how you just threw a bunch of fluff that doesn't mean shit since Sonic doesn't have the required NEP interaction. The only NEP being in the verse is getting that NEP removed, and it also has the most worthless NEP type/aspect combo out there even currently.
You do not understand that it does not matter if Sonic has hit all of these different things or done this and that when his current profile does not have him interacting with Type 1 aspect 1 Nonexistent Physiology.
There is no arguing about this, if Sonic doesn't have the proof of smacking someone with Giratina's specific kinds of NEP, he's not smacking around Giratina.
And Sonic is Baseline 2-A in range. Giratina is bigger then that. So Sonic can't do anything Notable to Giratina
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- Thread starter
- #38
Hyper Sonic is baseline 2-A?
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In range, yeah. It is VERY hard to get above baseline 2-A in range
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You literally just skimmed through my entire response and ignored just about everything I said in response to you. Please re-read everything and try to dismantle my arguments from there. Even if Sonic cannot interact with Giratina's NEP, he resists enough of Giratina's haxes, abilities, and overall attack potency where it would result in an inconclusive match.
Have you scene Sonic's profile for Super Sonic?! At his peak, he is placed above baseline 2-A. Coupling that with his Hyper Form upscaling far higher and having Super Sonic Boost and Arrow of Light present, he scales above the Baseline 2-A range.
