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Anui-El vs M─üra

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Wouldn't being infinite to 1-A still make you 1-A? It's just stacking one infinity above an other one. For you to be of a higher tier, you'd have to completely transcend this in the first place. Like viewing a 1-A like the 1-A see the 11 or something.

As for the gender thing, it just means Hajun was born a man first, it has nothing to do with either you transcend gender or dualism or whatever.

Some authors like to create a formless, identityless, ungraspable deity thing that will never appear and do anyting at all. In effect, they are useless.

Then others want these beings to interact with characters or the story, thus a form or a gender is given. Be it, that's what it would identify as, what it was born as before transcending it, or what the avatar it chooses to create or use. From a storytelling point of view, the second one is much better and shouldn't hinder the bieng's power. Ficton has kept doing this because it is much easier to use, and better if you mean to make it interact.

It shouldn't hinder the rating of these beings.

And also the Et'Ada couldn't distinguish between themselves and the others, it doesn't mean that the Daedra princes today are any lower than they were as Et'Ada because they have a personality? As far as we know, the "infinity, boundless being" does not reffer to "power", but to "existence".
 
@Tony

Even if one does transcend an infinite Outerversal hierarchy ( view baseline 1-A the same way 1-A sees dimensioned beings ), it wouldn't necessarily make them higher than tier 1-A, you have to be the absolute peak of your own verse with little to no weakness to be considered tier 0.

Though that doesn't mean tier 0 always stomps 1-A as there are 1-As who transcend hierarchies far larger, more expensive than some of them.

Having said all that, I pretty much agree with your post, you don't have to be the typical "boundless, formless abstract being" to be as powerful.

Now why don't we all just let this thread die?

EDIT: ah shit, forgot there are two Tonies in the thread.
 
Ravenous4th said:
@Tony
Even if one does transcend an infinite Outerversal hierarchy ( view baseline 1-A the same way 1-A sees dimensioned beings ), it wouldn't necessarily make them higher than tier 1-A, you have to be the absolute peak of your own verse with little to no weakness to be considered tier 0.

Though that doesn't mean tier 0 always stomps 1-A as there are 1-As who transcend hierarchies far larger, more expensive than some of them.

Having said all that, I pretty much agree with your post, you don't have to be the typical "boundless, formless abstract being" to be as powerful.

Now why don't we all just let this thread die?

EDIT: ah shit, forgot there are two Tonies in the thread.
Click to expand...
Die? You only talked about AP, Taikyoku and Manji Mandala... only SansNom provided some argument besides what you understand. If I made this thread is because I want to know other people's point of view. If you want me to close this thread... then JUST ASK ME TO. It's very obvious that you're uncomfortable with this
 
Because AP is only thing that matters? We've been through this several times, everyone's tired of it.

Tony didn't provide any argument regarding the VS, he was pointing out that being a typical beyond-comprehension formless abstract doesn't make you any higher in hierarchical transcendence.

And I pretty much agreed to it, because it's an obvious fact

Yes, yes, yes we all know you want to hear opinions, but please bear in mind that the only so called opinions you'll ever see are those of "why x is above Y in transcendence" and vice-versa unless you equalize AP which isn't what we usually do.

Nothing will come out of 1-A threads.

Imagine putting a 5-D imp up against infinite dimensional deities, what we get in 1-A threads are roughly the same type of arguments.

It always ends up using circular logic.

I'm not trying to offend you in any conceivable manner nor am I trying to undermine your efforts in making the thread, by the way.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Turning philosophical statements and theological concepts into RPG number stat crunching measuring matches makes me sick in my stomach.
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That's like, the entire point of what we do here, though.

We take a character or beings' feats and statements and judge them according to our own criteria to see where they rank on our tier list.

Just because something is philosophical or a concept doesn't exempt them from being ranked - other series have concepts or are philiosphical and they are ranked just fine. The Elder Scrolls isn't special in that regard.

And besides, the series itself determines a hierarchy with this philisophical concept according to the AP description - as Anu is described as "standing completely transcendent over even the IS/IS-NOT interplay of Anui-El and Sithis, with the former being merely a small aspect of Anu, formed so that it might acquire self-awareness." And the ANU the Amamarth is stated to have transcended everything in The Elder Scrolls verse entirely.

That's a heirachy that which shows that "RPG number stat crunching" is something that exists within this verse too - funnily enough, a verse that is an RPG.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Turning philosophical statements and theological concepts into RPG number stat crunching measuring matches makes me sick in my stomach.
Click to expand...
I mean, no offense but what exactly did you expect? The main attraction of this site is mostly VS Debating and comparing the rankings of overpowered characters or concepts, even if its focus isn't exactly centered around that anymore. It's only natural that this sort of thing would occur when put into a website with such a mechanical background.
 
I think he was mostly referring to the fact that complex philosophical concepts have been perverted and reduced to just a new hip substitute for a power level, "level of transcendence" and the like.
 
then don't use the complex philosophical concepts as the ap justification if you don't want it to be used to find power levels
 
CrimsonStarFallen said:
Idk how Warren's post implies the only thing he took away from ANU's description is power levels, since, you know, people can appreciate a good phylosophial description of an interesting concept, but also try to find out how strong said concept is. It's not like this is the whole point of the site or anything...
But whatever.
Click to expand...
But @Crimson, @Warren provided a point of view that isn't blinded by the lack of arguments. Actually I think is a good moment to apologise to him about the whole Rein vs TSM (The Star Maker), but on the other hand I have to thank him for bring an argument regarding ANU's existence.

You see, when I talk about a DEBATE... I was talking about the concept M─üra represents, how does he could trascend Anui-El and, if he wins, then how does he does it. I said it VERY VERY VERY clearly in the OP: I don't hate any verse, I don't want spite, nor I want senseless arguments (well, I didn't said that in the OP but the point is clear).
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
No it does not. The fact that the only thing you take from ANU's explanation is power levels is extremely disheartening.
Click to expand...
The fact that you thought me mentioning ANU's AP description was because I only care about power levels is what is truly disheartening.

Believe me when I say that I love reading about lore and philosophy more than most, especially those my age.

With that having been said, however, acting like a character is beyond having a placement on the our tier list because of it is "philosophical" and that "it's a concept" is preposterous as there are plenty of characters from plenty of other verses that are philosophical and are concepts, and they are listed on our tier list just fine. And the AP description on Anu's page shows that it is no different - there is a clear distinction in strength between these characters.

If a character can't be placed on the list because their level of strength is too vague to have a specific placement on the list, then they would be unknown.
 
What debate, in 1-A everything comes down to trascendence and AP, the only thing besides that is people gettin mad at other people or some other bs.
 
Since I'm the OP I can't say who wins and who don't. I just want people to give REASONS for Anui-El or Hajun victory. You didn't bring the S-word ("Stomp", I mean) and you weren't fighting other users just because a character you like isn't winning straight away.
 
The only possible reasons for anyone's victory in a 1-A match is being higher into 1-A than the opponent
 
1- Even if Hajun's is immeasurable, isn't Taikyoku a quantified value?

2- If you come with arguments so simple again... I'm going to put a theme that you won't gonna like for this battle. A theme that doesn't fit this fight
 
No, you can't quantify him at all. Best you can do is scale him off Yato and put a certain "range" to his power. Let's say that he completely breaks Taiji numerical scale and rises beyond, if the scale caps at infinity, then he transcends an infinite hierarchy and goes beyond, which is actually very likely as Yato compared the idea of fighting him to man fighting God. Not to mention that it also scales with his opponents. You can have any set number of Taikyoku and he'll take a shit or two on your law.

Also, the difference between Taikyoku, or what you call a dimension-like hierarchy holds no weight in a cross-verse fight at all as the combatants already transcended dimensional limitations. It's just used to pinpoint a God's standing in his own verse, nothing more.

Secondly, what are you ranting about again? What do you expect from 1-A debates? "Simple" arguments? There are no arguments present in the thread besides what I stated earlier "level of transcedence", you either get stomped or you don't.

If you don't like it, try equalizing AP and we'll get an actual debate, but I highly doubt that there'll be an accepted outcome.

We've been through this several times by now, and I don't think you understand why 1-A fights are discouraged.
 
Raven, you only have a very simple reasoning regarding trascendence, AP, abstractness or what both represent. I know that 1-A battles aren't added, but only you (and maybe the Bugalu-one) keep the same arguments regarding the power of both characters. It's not about stomps (unless you make a Yakou vs Shub-Niggurath/Padomay) but talking with other people about why does Hajun defeat Anui-El. You said:

Ravenous4th said:
Because AP is only thing that matters? We've been through this several times, everyone's tired of it.
Tony didn't provide any argument regarding the VS, he was pointing out that being a typical beyond-comprehension formless abstract doesn't make you any higher in hierarchical transcendence.

And I pretty much agreed to it, because it's an obvious fact

Yes, yes, yes we all know you want to hear opinions, but please bear in mind that the only so called opinions you'll ever see are those of "why x is above Y in transcendence" and vice-versa unless you equalize AP which isn't what we usually do.

Nothing will come out of 1-A threads.

Imagine putting a 5-D imp up against infinite dimensional deities, what we get in 1-A threads are roughly the same type of arguments.

It always ends up using circular logic.

I'm not trying to offend you in any conceivable manner nor am I trying to undermine your efforts in making the thread, by the way.
Click to expand...
Not trying to dismiss you, but your opinion is very limited to not explaining yourself. If you belive that Hajun wins, then explain me something else besides Manji Mandala. Hajun is a VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY powerful 1-A, yes, but when you say the whole thing about Taikyouku not being utilizable in crosss verse fights, then why did you used the same (Taikyoku) for quantify Hajun's trascendence? Please, explain your point of view, not saying that you're wrong but I don't understand what you try to make me understand.

BTW... LOOK WHAT YOU MAKE ME DO!!! The fight's theme is "How Soon is Now?". Gotta thank you for that, since I looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooove Morrissey <3
 
You don't because you didn't read my early posts at all.

You kept blabbering about how much you want to hear opinions that are completely unrelated to any possible outcome of the fight.

1-A debates don't work like that, people don't debate philosophical ideas, they debate power.

Taikyoku isn't supposed to mean anything past in-verse fight since it is, to most people, an attempt to fit beyond-dimensional entities in a dimension-like hierarchy, which just doesn't work. Trying to quantify beyond-dimensional beings using dimensioned logic is a fruitless endeavor.

So that means debating ideas is more preferable, right? right?

The answer is no, equalizing AP will make it even more confusing for people since most of them don't even have required knowledge to participate in such debates in the first place.

It'll most likely end up being inconclusive/stalemate, and people don't like stalemate/inconclusive, so instead of debating ideas they turned to hierarchical transcendence, comparing the characters' relative standings in their verses which are supposed to be irrelevant, that's why 1-A debates are pointless and bland.

The line of reasoning you loathe, that we all loathe so much is ironically the only key to a conceivable outcome.

And when it comes to this, 1-A/0 fights are always stomp, there is no real winner. Higher AP will always triumph over lower one, there is no debate at all. Just that it's undecidable in most cases.

You don't like AP as an argument? Well then get used to it. Classic debates that you long for so much can only happen if you equalize AP, which once again isn't what we usually do.

Heck, Warren even highlighted that the only way to properly discuss it without getting a headache is to use circular logic that is AP. It's always sutompu.
 
I just don't get what Peach wants, a philosophical debate? About what, Taijii? What are Hadou Gods? That we talk about the concepts in TES?

Not only we don't have a good explanation blog for Masada, none has read the TES blog like it really matters because people is lazy. (Except for Matt and supporters of the verse and Warren)

And even then all that matters is AP and unless you want to make a thread changing that this will go nowhere.
 
Warren Valion said:
Honeslty, why were the unbanned? There are no two verses on the same level of 1-A, and it makes every fight a stomp for either one character or the other.
Click to expand...
Long story short is "They were unbanned because they could lead to very interesting discussions, then after unbanning them we realized that 1-A threads were nigh-universally terrible so adding the results was forbidden again"
 
Discussing 1A matches should never be banned as long as dont add them, precisly because the tier is so broad and convoluted. Even if we dont "ban" the adding of 1A matches they would still never be added, because they will never be fair. The sheer differences in Cosmology size and hierachical positioning makes it impossible.

That said though, i dont believe that comparing 1A beings is flawed per se. You dont need deep philosophical understanding to see that Nyarlalothep is under every other Outer god, as fathomable or unfathomable the difference is. Its just that the actual comparason sucks. It would require 2 deeply knowledgeable persons debating out the cosmology size, the hierachy in it and the deeper philosophys behind everything, to reach a satisfying consensus.

And well, neither is ready, able or willing to do so.

So lets just let everything 1A related die or debate it out in peaceful manner, where every parcitipant is doing so for the sake of the actual debate and not for the outcome itself.
 
As stupid as it is, its the only thing that can be compared in Outerversal realms, correct or not. People should be allowed to do that as long as it stays civil. The worst thing that comes out of it is a general picture of 1A beings being deemed weaker or stronger than the other. A image if you want to put it that way. If its "correct" than hurray. If its not then change it.
 
How can we even compare their state of being in some metaphysical hierarchy when the OP completely denies it? He wants a debate of philosophies, debate of ideas.

He also made his position clear that comparing AP is something too "limited", "simple" and unacceptable.

So what can we do besides letting it die?
 
Uh, nothing because i didnt talk about this thread in particular but generally speaking. This one can die for what i care lol.
 
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