(Another) Triforce Tiering and Scaling Revision Thread

[Warren_Valion]

Introduction​

Note: As I promised (And a D'Ambrosio man always keeps their promises), I am making this thread as a continuation of this thread, based on the much-needed discussion surrounding the Triforce's current rating - as it's the previous rating of scaling above Majora is now invalid. I also planned on making a CRT about my problems with some of the Triforce scaling, and thus, I find this a perfect time to discuss it.

Back-to-Back-to-Back Zelda CRTs, such fun.

Anyway, let's get into it.

---

New Triforce Tiering/Justifications​

As mentioned just above, the current Triforce AP description:

"Universe level, likely Universe level+ (Its mere existence sustains the Sacred Realm, and turned it into the Dark World which at the very least is large enough to have a radius of an Earth-to-Sun distance. Is by far the most powerful thing in the series, putting it well beyond the Wind Fish, Majora, and the Fierce Deity)"

Which bases its rating from upscaling from a 3-A to Low 2-C Majora and Fierce Deity is now inaccurate, as they were downgraded back to Large Star level.

So what does that leave us with?

Well, the statements about the Triforce being considered the most powerful thing in the series is true, as it is literally described to be the ultimate power and is the greatest power that exists in the world, and is considered "omnipotent" on numerous occasions within the verse of Zelda.

So the Triforce scaling above other characters, such as Majora or the Wind Fish (And definitely characters like Demise and Hylia, since Demise's entire motivation was to obtain the greater power of the Triforce for himself) are perfectly reasonable assumptions to make.

So the Triforce should be 4-A (Scaling above the Wind Fish), you might be asking? I would argue no, it should likely be higher.

Why you might ask? Well, for the very first thing that is written in the description - Transforming the Sacred Realm into the Dark World and continuously sustaining it.


The main contention that has always existed with this feat is the, frankly, strange belief that the Zelda Universe and/or the Sacred Realm only possesses an Earth-to-Sun distance, (yet simultaneously the Golden Goddesses are Tier 2 for creating numerous parallel universal space-time continuum) and nothing greater without explicit proof otherwise. This logic is extremely contradictive, and frankly, hypocritical.

There is no other verse on the site that has to explicitly prove that their universe is universal in size, unless stated to be bigger or smaller, that's the assumption for any universe made by a creator deity figure in a verse. The idea that Zelda's universe is only a solar system-wide because that's all we see (although we can clearly see countless stars in the sky within the Light World, so it is clearly greater than just that, but I digress) is just pure nonsense. Their universes are universal, that shouldn't be a hot take.


Now on to the feat itself being brought up in question.

Before the events of A Link to the Past, Ganon entered the Sacred Realm (An alternate reality that is the dominion of the Triforce) and once he touched the Triforce, he used its power to transform the Sacred Realm into the Dark World.

As mentioned here:

"Ganon's wish was to conquer the world. That wish changed the golden land into The Dark World."

And it definitively through "The Golden Power" or the Triforce, that this is done:

"The Golden Power is what changed your shape to reflect what is in your heart and mind."

Which is continuously sustained by him and only disappears upon his death:

"But now, you have totally destroyed Ganon. His Dark World will vanish."

Now you might ask, how do we know that by "world", it means "universe", and not "planet". Good question, well, for one, "world" is constantly used in Zelda to refer to the creation of the universe as mentioned in these two examples here:

"The world was created by the three goddesses during a time of chaos."

"And the golden sacred triangles remained at the point where the goddesses left the world."

So we know so far is that the word "world" in Zelda can be indicative of the universe, that the Zelda universe is a universal space-time continuum, and that the Sacred Realm is an alternate realm that Ganon transforms and sustains via the power of the Triforce. But you might ask, how large is this world that Ganon is transforming, the Sacred Realm/Dark World?

There are so many statements mentioning that the Light World and Dark World are parallel universes, that's it's hard to figure out where to go for a specific example of it. So here are two examples right here:

"This world is like a darkened mirror of your own... It looks familiar, but in truth it is very different."

"This world is like the real world, but evil has twisted it."

So the Light World = Dark World = Sacred Realm.

Meaning that Ganon's wish reality warped the entire universe (no space-time is mentioned, so we can assume that it is just physical space), which is further backed up from this quote by a Talking Timber (Sorry for linking to a wiki, and not a video or screenshot, I couldn't find any video that talked to this tree specifically) stating directly that the Triforce created the Dark World to fulfill Ganon's wish of ruling the entire cosmos, which clearly showcases that it is more than just a kingdom or planet:

"Wow! I haven't seen a normal person in a few hundred years! Let me talk to you for a while. Surprisingly, the Triforce created this world to fulfill Ganon's wish. What is Ganon's wish, you ask? It is to rule the entire cosmos! Don't you think it might be possible with the power of the Triforce behind you?"

TriforcePower1 supplied a better translation, but the same points stand:

"Ooh, I'm really surprised. I didn't think that I'll ever see someone that is not insane. It's been few hundred years. Well, let me talk with you for a sec. Do you know this story..... They say that this world was created to grant Ganon’s every wish. What is Ganondorf's wish, you say? To be King of all worlds/all this world (probably the former) of course. He can do it with magical energy of the Dark World, can't he?"

So with all that information, I think it's safe to say that The Triforce should at least be 4-A for scaling above the Wind Fish, and likely be 3-A for transforming and sustaining a universal space that is the Dark World.

---

Issues with Triforce Scaling and Fixes​

I mentioned that I had issues with the Triforce scaling, and there they are:

Can someone explain to me why we consider Ganondorf in ALttP to be empowered by the full Triforce?


Like, don't get me wrong, he definitely had the Triforce, I am not doubting that - it is visually shown to us after all, and mentioned constantly in the game.

But why do we assume that Ganondorf absorbed the entire Triforce into his body, augmenting his powers, as he does with the Triforce of Power in all the other games?

Where's the proof of this?

In ALttP, when Ganon is destroyed, Link has to enter a backroom. In the room, there is an altar with an opening, and within the altar is the Triforce. Pretty directly showing us that Triforce isn't in Ganondorf's body, but in a room separated from his and Link's positioning at the time.

Now you might say that they wouldn't be able to show it coming out of the Ganon's body because of hardware limitations.

I counter this point by bringing up the fact that in the original Legend of Zelda for the NES, we actually see Ganon turn into a puff of red mist, and guess what? The Triforce of Power was mixed in with the leftover remains of Ganon - showing that Ganon had it absorbed into his body.

So if the original showed the Triforce being a remain of Ganondorf's body when he was destroyed, then why didn't ALttP do that?

The events paint a clear picture, Ganon didn't absorb the full power of the Triforce within himself, but that he held onto it and left the Triforce in a secret room.


And please note, there is a clear difference between having the Triforce in your possession, and having it absorbed into your body, as shown here in the Wind Waker with the Triforce of Courage.

I would also like to mention that the wish-granting powers of the Triforce are never shown to be used by those with the Triforce absorbed into their body, it is always shown that the user must summon the Triforce pieces outside of their body, touch the Triforce directly, and make a wish, for it to work. So if Ganon was sustaining his wish that turned the Sacred Realm into the Dark World, it makes sense for Ganon to NOT absorb the Triforce into himself.

It's akin to saying that Omega Shenron has wish-granting abilities because he has absorbed the seven dragon balls, when that's clearly not the case. I believe the same logic applies to the Triforce.

This all goes without mentioning that, if Ganon really did have the full Triforce boosting his strength (and it's the strongest "omnipotent" power in the verse), how could Link ever compete and beat that Ganon?

The response you usually get is that in A Link to the Past, it was stated that Master Sword possessed powers that negated the Triforce as mentioned here.

The problem with this, barring the nonsensical and hypocritical viewpoint that is made when saying that the Triforce is the greatest power that exists and was created by the Goddesses themselves, and yet mortals can create a weapon to match it, but it also goes against the fact that this lore is HEAVILY retconned and outdated, and thus, non-applicable.

In Skyward Sword, we literally see Link forge the Master Sword from the Goddess Sword (which was created by Hylia) by tempering it in the flames of the Goddesses.

As stated, this ancient lore that states that the people made it, is clearly shown to be incorrect and was heavily retconned, unlike the other lore used from the game in this CRT. And using this as an excuse just doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever.

That, in addition to everything I mentioned, makes me adamantly believe that scaling ALTTP Ganon and Link to the Triforce's tier is incorrect, and that it would be far more appropriate to scale have an "At least Multi-Solar System level, likely Universe level with Triforce" added to their tier and ap descriptions instead, since the Triforce is a separated tool that they can use, and they are not physically on such a level themselves for the reasons I have just gone over.

And that's about it.

---

Conclusion/Tl;DR​

In this CRT, I have set out to do and prove two things:

• Give new proper justification for the Triforce's rating with proper clips and scans
• Explain why ALTTP characters scaling to Triforce is non-sensical.

If you have any questions or are willing to point out any mistakes (I did this at 3 in the morning, so there are likely mistakes), feel free to ask and tell me respectively in the comment section below.

Thank you.

---

Votes​

New Triforce Tiering/Justification​

• Agree: 0
• Disagree: 0
• Ambivalent: 0

Issues with Triforce Scaling and Fixes​

• Agree: 0
• Disagree: 0
• Ambivalent: 0

 

[Warren_Valion]

Please note that it is 3:30 AM where I am, and I frankly could have gotten tons of more quotes for nearly everything.

So to sum up what I am about to say, this isn't my best work and this is likely to have many mistakes.

Sorry about that, please point them out to me, and I will address them at a future time.

 

[SilentLyfe]

Not really that knowledge on tiering but your point on alttp Ganon makes sense. I always wondered why people thought he used the Triforce when you clearly get it in the next room.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I’m fine with the first part, but I remember that the Tree’s statement was different in the Japanese version, as I once asked Shiro to translate it. I’ll see if I can dig up that thread.

About the second part, the reason why we assumed Ganon had it absorbed is exactly because it was NOT in the room behind, but we literally see it appearing after Link enters the room. It wasn’t there before.

Also, the Japanese version has many differences from the American version, differences including how the Master Sword was made: it was made following the voice of a god (Hylia through Impa to Link?) to a Hylian (Japanese doesn’t use plurals, and the word used is Hyrule-jin, which only means hylian(s), kind of like america-jin would mean American) long before ALTTP in order to fight any evil person who may get their hands on the Triforce (Demise?). What I’m trying to say is that the explanation in the manual wasn’t necessarily retconnected and was probably taken into consideration when writing SS’s plot. Admittedly, the Japanese version also mentions that the master Sword repels “any evil who may kidnap the Triforce”, not the Triforce powers themselves. I guess it could still be interpreted that way though. Source: http://www.zeldalegends.net/files/text/z3translation/z3_manual_story.html

The reason Link can beat with Ganon isn’t because he’s stronger than Ganon (he isn’t) but because Ganon’s ultra weak to the Master Sword. They’re still somewhat comparable since Link can take a hit, but he’s still far weaker.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I’ve found the thread. Shiro’s final translation was this:

"Ooh, I'm really surprised. I didn't think that I'll ever see someone that is not insane. It's been few hundred years. Well, let me talk with you for a sec. Do you know this story..... They say that this world was created to grant Ganon’s every wish. What is Ganondorf's wish, you say? To be King of all worlds/all this world (probably the former) of course. He can do it with magical energy of the Dark World, can't he?"

Maybe you can use it for some CRT since there’s still some very interesting info.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I mean, for me the Triforce should be possibly Low 2-C, the triforce was stated to be capable of altering the essence of all things, so it can possibly effect space-time continuum too, no? It wouldn't be weird, especially considering that there are beings like Demise who exists before time was created.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I mean, for me the Triforce should be possibly Low 2-C, the triforce was stated to be capable of altering the essence of all things, so it can possibly effect space-time continuum too, no? It wouldn't be weird, especially considering that there are beings like Demise who exists before time was created.

This is so painfully vague, and has nothing to do with the Ganon feat.

It's just 3-A.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know, I wrote the step by step bullet points; but each of those points should probably source the scans.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I’m fine with the first part, but I remember that the Tree’s statement was different in the Japanese version, as I once asked Shiro to translate it. I’ll see if I can dig up that thread.

About the second part, the reason why we assumed Ganon had it absorbed is exactly because it was NOT in the room behind, but we literally see it appearing after Link enters the room. It wasn’t there before.

Also, the Japanese version has many differences from the American version, differences including how the Master Sword was made: it was made following the voice of a god (Hylia through Impa to Link?) to a Hylian (Japanese doesn’t use plurals, and the word used is Hyrule-jin, which only means hylian(s), kind of like america-jin would mean American) long before ALTTP in order to fight any evil person who may get their hands on the Triforce (Demise?). What I’m trying to say is that the explanation in the manual wasn’t necessarily retconnected and was probably taken into consideration when writing SS’s plot. Admittedly, the Japanese version also mentions that the master Sword repels “any evil who may kidnap the Triforce”, not the Triforce powers themselves. I guess it could still be interpreted that way though. Source: http://www.zeldalegends.net/files/text/z3translation/z3_manual_story.html

The reason Link can beat with Ganon isn’t because he’s stronger than Ganon (he isn’t) but because Ganon’s ultra weak to the Master Sword. They’re still somewhat comparable since Link can take a hit, but he’s still far weaker.

Wat?

We literally see it come from the hole in the altar in the next room, and NOT Ganon's body like in the original (Ignore the watermark):

This argument makes no sense - Ganon didn't absorb the Triforce, there is nothing proving that he did, and the visual evidence given to us by the game is clear proof of that not being the case.


Also, your trying to stretch out the passage and link it Skyward Sword just doesn't work, this is what the translation says:

"For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane."

For one thing, it's not a message from a God, but a message from the Gods, and "Gods" in this context are the Golden Goddesses.

And another thing is that this message was for the people of Hyrule, not a Hero or anything of the sort, nothing about this manual gives any solid reference to any story elements in Skyward Sword.

And no? Nintendo has made it abundantly clear that keeping continuity or actually forming a coherent canon is the last thing on their mind when making a Zelda game, Breath of the Wild is a perfect example of that.


And are you reading what you are writing? For one, no one is saying that Link is stronger than Ganon, but that's not the problem with the logic.

How can you believe whatsoever that Link (without any pieces of the Triforce) can legitimately be comparable to a Fully Triforce absorbed Ganon, to the point where he can take hits from the guy and walk it off, in any way? This is the same relic that stated to be "omnipotent" in that very game, but Link can take hits from that guy?


The logic doesn't make any sense, and along with the fact that we blatantly see the Triforce appear tucked away in a separate room - it's obvious, that on all levels. Link and Ganon from A Link to the Past own tier physical scaling to the Triforce is just wrong.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I know, I wrote the step by step bullet points; but each of those points should probably source the scans.

???

I feel like I am missing half of the conversation here.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Sad to say, but I will be incredibly busy for the rest of the day, so I won't be able to continue responding with anything.


I want to say, if you agree or disagree with upgrades, please blatantly say "I agree with X and/or Y", so I can have an easier time tracking down all the votes.

Thank you.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I agree with the Triforce being Tier 3/2 again. The Sacred Realm being a universe seems good considering the fact it has a sun, so it clearly isn't limited to just being a planet when they refer to "world" as well. It's only logical that it's a universe when going up the rung, so I agree that the feats involving it are Universal/Universal+.

I disagree with the second portion regarding A Link to the Past Ganon not being empowered via Triforce's reasons.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

The triforce states Ganon was his owner and that he was building up his power to make his wish come true, and that it needs a new owner aka Link and that Ganon was sustaining the dark world, which will now vanish via his death:


LoZ example doesn't really work because Ganon stole the triforce of power in that game from Zelda (trifroce back then was also considered like a physical object you hold onto, not something inside of you, look at how Link just holds up the triforce of wisdom along with the triforce of power), in ALTTP he entered the sacred realm and touched the triforce breaking them into 3 and then killed OoT Link to reform it and never got his wish completed due to the sages sealing him

 

[TriforcePower1]

Ah, ops, I thought the pieces came from outside the scene. My bad.

And about Link being able to fight Ganon, well, I guess “it just be like that sometimes”. The Master Sword was powered up by a Great Fairy that lived in the same place as the Triforce itself. She’s also the same fairy that gives you the Silver Arrows, the only thing capable of defeating Ganon in ALTTP (at least lore-wise. I’ve never actually tried to defeat Ganon without them).

Lastly, about the manual information. While the Zelda team generally don’t care about the lore, SS is a very clear exception considering that it pretty much created most of Zelda’s lore. They probably looked at what they said in previous games and then expanded on it. Since Japanese doesn’t use plurals, “gods” can also technically be just “god” (Hylia), the people of Hyrule can also be just “the person of Hyrule” (or, to be more precise, just hylian as I’ve explained above). Obviously this doesn’t contain SS elements, but what I’m saying is that the writers reinterpretated and expanded what was already stated in previous games, hence that information is still canon since it didn’t get retconnected.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Golden master Sword is amped by fairy and tempered by dwarfs with the statement that it amps Link while he holds it.

ALTTP was made back when Miyamoto was still in charge of Zelda, Miyamoto's a dude who really doesn't care about story that much:

Zelda Creator Shigeru Miyamoto Explains the Importance of Story in Games - IGN

Nintendo creative fellow and lauded game designer Shigeru Miyamoto…

www.ign.com

Aonuma just took stuff from pre-established lore and fixed it up. Master Sword being able to resist triforce effects is answered by the sword receiving each of the goddesses essences to power it up as an example.

 

[Ionliosite]

I obviously agree with the new scaling for the Triforce.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Triforce shouldn't just be 4-A to 3-A by the mere fact actual translations says that it contains the powers of all 3 golden goddesses, not a peice, not a portion but that it literally just contains all there powers.

Three 2-B beings who created millions of dimensions/universes/parallel worlds(casually and by accident) , who poured their powers, their very essence into something that will be known as the triforce(or triforces because almost every world alternate realities have their own).

Dosent makes sense for it to cap out at 3-A

And the fact that the Triforce plays an important part of creation makes sense an entire universe space/time/law/physics is literally bound by a triforce makes sense since Nayru made it so. and the destruction of one clearly started to break down Lorule apart and I mean the entire reality of it.



As for Ganondorf he was clearly powered by the triforce. The triforce dosent needs to be with you to do anything, Skyward sword fixed that misconception with Aonuma making Link still powered by the Triforce, when he left it in the past to go fight Demise but at the end we see Link power through armies of Demise with little to no difficulty despite not being near it or in the same time period.

And the fact that SS is now the origin story of the triforce yet again fix stuff for link to the past. Since one the master swords goals was to be the ultimate defensive weapon against the TF incase Demise ever got it.

This is just your standard recton to fix the story for future zelda games.

ALBW literally is a ALTTP 2.0 but the story flows better thanks to the recton with the master sword and the game says it a lot of time that you have to upgrade the master sword to its all powerful self or at least close to its "True Master sword form"

Also "mere mortals" can't just do something to match the TF like it was nothing. it literally requires divine powers, sacred energy, blessing from the 3 goddesses or at least the TF itself to make something that comes close to its powers.

BOTW is the perfect example of that, all the royal guards weapons that you see? The elite black ones? These are all failed recreation of the master sword the ancient and current Sheikas most advanced race in both magic and technology aside from the Zonai couldn't replacate the master in any way.

Hell they even tried to recreate the base depowered form of it but they still couldn't. that alone shows that the MS isn't just a weapon that so happens to match the TF.


So people saying that MS fully powered(or evolved) matching the TF makes sense.


Yuga Ganon was still powered by the full triforce when fighting link and we all know how that went Link needed to power up it sword to ridiculous degree in a very specific way.

Hero of Light the one that literally appears after Link left (Post ALTTP) goes to the pedestal grabs the golden master sword where it is said to be the same sword Link had in his final fight with triforce powered Ganon.

HoL went on to save Hyrule again and utterly curbstomped Ganon like it was nothing and that time Ganon didn't have the Triforce to back him up.

Somethings obviously had to be retconned in ALTTP considering its director at the time didn't care much about lore consistency.

Also Triforce being 4-A wouldn't even make sense, since then you have the God pantheons and some baddies matching it, so just no.

Heck most gods have difficulty matching a SINGLE peice of triforce (Ganondorf with the triforce of power went to town with everyone divine beings included) 1 piece made Yuga a threat, 2 pieces nearly made him unstoppable and we all know how things went when he got the TF.

Adventures of Link with Link weilding 2 pieces made everyone else look like a joke apparently.

So 3-A to Low 2-C|possibly higher is more fitting.

Spoiler: Age of calamity

Hell in age of calamity Zelda with the full Triforce causes another timeline split

Also someone should put the proper rating of the 3 golden goddesses 2-B (and Vaati's 4-A rating since he literally uses the power of Hylia).

 

[Warren_Valion]

I agree with the Triforce being Tier 3/2 again. The Sacred Realm being a universe seems good considering the fact it has a sun, so it clearly isn't limited to just being a planet when they refer to "world" as well. It's only logical that it's a universe when going up the rung, so I agree that the feats involving it are Universal/Universal+.

I disagree with the second portion regarding A Link to the Past Ganon not being empowered via Triforce's reasons.

But he didn't give any reasons other than "it wasn't in the other room", which my images prove that it very clearly was in the altar in the next room.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The triforce states Ganon was his owner and that he was building up his power to make his wish come true, and that it needs a new owner aka Link and that Ganon was sustaining the dark world, which will now vanish via his death:


LoZ example doesn't really work because Ganon stole the triforce of power in that game from Zelda (trifroce back then was also considered like a physical object you hold onto, not something inside of you, look at how Link just holds up the triforce of wisdom along with the triforce of power), in ALTTP he entered the sacred realm and touched the triforce breaking them into 3 and then killed OoT Link to reform it and never got his wish completed due to the sages sealing him

Being the owner of something =/= it being absorbed and fused into your soul. In the same way Link is the "owner" of the Triforce when he touches it and makes a wish on it.

Again, there is a difference in Wind Waker when Link has possession of the Triforce of Courage, and when he has fused with it.

And if you are claiming that the LoZ example isn't applicable because "back then the Triforce was considered a physical object you hold onto, not something inside of you", then doesn't this also prove my point exactly?

How would ALttP be any different, especially with no proof of the contrary, and explicit visual proof of it being so?

 

[Warren_Valion]

And about Link being able to fight Ganon, well, I guess “it just be like that sometimes”. The Master Sword was powered up by a Great Fairy that lived in the same place as the Triforce itself. She’s also the same fairy that gives you the Silver Arrows, the only thing capable of defeating Ganon in ALTTP (at least lore-wise. I’ve never actually tried to defeat Ganon without them).

Lastly, about the manual information. While the Zelda team generally don’t care about the lore, SS is a very clear exception considering that it pretty much created most of Zelda’s lore. They probably looked at what they said in previous games and then expanded on it. Since Japanese doesn’t use plurals, “gods” can also technically be just “god” (Hylia), the people of Hyrule can also be just “the person of Hyrule” (or, to be more precise, just hylian as I’ve explained above). Obviously this doesn’t contain SS elements, but what I’m saying is that the writers reinterpretated and expanded what was already stated in previous games, hence that information is still canon since it didn’t get retconnected.

"It just be like that" is not a response as to why a Triforceless Link would be able to take hits from a Full Triforce Ganon, it just doesn't make sense at all. And besides, the argument isn't even solely about this, this is just a small part of the overarching problems and contradiction seen in lore and in the game when saying that Ganon in ALttP had the Triforce fully absorbed into his body.

And no, the context for "Gods" in the manual is clearly the Golden Goddesses, you would need a pretty direct statement from Aonuma or something to actually justify this combination of old and new lore. Occam's Razor clearly leans in saying that this lore is old and has been retconned.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Triforce shouldn't just be 4-A to 3-A by the mere fact actual translations says that it contains the powers of all 3 golden goddesses, not a peice, not a portion but that it literally just contains all there powers.

Three 2-B beings who created millions of dimensions/universes/parallel worlds(casually and by accident) , who poured their powers, their very essence into something that will be known as the triforce(or triforces because almost every world alternate realities have their own).

Dosent makes sense for it to cap out at 3-A

And the fact that the Triforce plays an important part of creation makes sense an entire universe space/time/law/physics is literally bound by a triforce makes sense since Nayru made it so. and the destruction of one clearly started to break down Lorule apart and I mean the entire reality of it.



As for Ganondorf he was clearly powered by the triforce. The triforce dosent needs to be with you to do anything, Skyward sword fixed that misconception with Aonuma making Link still powered by the Triforce, when he left it in the past to go fight Demise but at the end we see Link power through armies of Demise with little to no difficulty despite not being near it or in the same time period.

And the fact that SS is now the origin story of the triforce yet again fix stuff for link to the past. Since one the master swords goals was to be the ultimate defensive weapon against the TF incase Demise ever got it.

This is just your standard recton to fix the story for future zelda games.

ALBW literally is a ALTTP 2.0 but the story flows better thanks to the recton with the master sword and the game says it a lot of time that you have to upgrade the master sword to its all powerful self or at least close to its "True Master sword form"

Also "mere mortals" can't just do something to match the TF like it was nothing. it literally requires divine powers, sacred energy, blessing from the 3 goddesses or at least the TF itself to make something that comes close to its powers.

BOTW is the perfect example of that, all the royal guards weapons that you see? The elite black ones? These are all failed recreation of the master sword the ancient and current Sheikas most advanced race in both magic and technology aside from the Zonai couldn't replacate the master in any way.

Hell they even tried to recreate the base depowered form of it but they still couldn't. that alone shows that the MS isn't just a weapon that so happens to match the TF.


So people saying that MS fully powered(or evolved) matching the TF makes sense.


Yuga Ganon was still powered by the full triforce when fighting link and we all know how that went Link needed to power up it sword to ridiculous degree in a very specific way.

Hero of Light the one that literally appears after Link left (Post ALTTP) goes to the pedestal grabs the golden master sword where it is said to be the same sword Link had in his final fight with triforce powered Ganon.

HoL went on to save Hyrule again and utterly curbstomped Ganon like it was nothing and that time Ganon didn't have the Triforce to back him up.

Somethings obviously had to be retconned in ALTTP considering its director at the time didn't care much about lore consistency.

Also Triforce being 4-A wouldn't even make sense, since then you have the God pantheons and some baddies matching it, so just no.

Heck most gods have difficulty matching a SINGLE peice of triforce (Ganondorf with the triforce of power went to town with everyone divine beings included) 1 piece made Yuga a threat, 2 pieces nearly made him unstoppable and we all know how things went when he got the TF.

Adventures of Link with Link weilding 2 pieces made everyone else look like a joke apparently.

So 3-A to Low 2-C|possibly higher is more fitting.

"Putting their essence into something" =/= their full power.

Nothing proves that, there is no feat that comes close to matching such a statement. The Triforce caps at 3-A because that's the best feat it's done.

The idea that Ganon or Link, just by having the Triforce in their possession, would be on the GGs level, is ludicrous.


And what? What Aonuma statement? The Triforce has never done anything of the sort in its existence, especially not from someone thousands of years in the past, and this was NEVER hinted in Skyward Sword to be a thing.

Link defeating a horde of moblins just means that Link is significantly stronger than they are, which makes sense considering he bested Ghirahim and Demise like ten minutes after. And if the Triforce was empowering Link, don't you think Demise would have mentioned it? You know, the character whose entire objective is collecting the Triforces power for himself?

Ganon wasn't clearly empowered by the Triforce because nothing implies that he was, all that is said is that the Triforce sustains his wish to rule over the world. Nothing about making him stronger, and with what we know about Zelda, it clearly isn't the case.


The problem is that there is no logical way for a Triforceless Link to take hits from a Full Triforce empowered Ganon, that doesn't make sense, even with a sword that can kill him, it's illogical, and because of that, along with all the other points I brought up, the most logical conclusion would be that Ganon wasn't empowered by the Full Triforce, as nothing proves he was.

And finally, where are you getting Low 2-C from?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Being the owner of something =/= it being absorbed and fused into your soul. In the same way Link is the "owner" of the Triforce when he touches it and makes a wish on it.

Again, there is a difference in Wind Waker when Link has possession of the Triforce of Courage, and when he has fused with it.

And if you are claiming that the LoZ example isn't applicable because "back then the Triforce was considered a physical object you hold onto, not something inside of you", then doesn't this also prove my point exactly?

How would ALttP be any different, especially with no proof of the contrary, and explicit visual proof of it being so?

In this case it does since it's specifically in context it's the very thing that allows him to keep stuff like the dark world sustained. Idk what the Link triforce example is supposed to be, he naturally has the full triforce amp too.

Link the scene, I think I know what you're talking about and if it is what I'm thinking about there's context being missing.

Not really since ALTTP changed the rules right after with Ganondorf being the triforce's owner rather then it being an inanimate object he holds.

The essence of the triforce's existence, the fact that it directly states him being it's owner is what sustained the dark world, the fact that it's stated he's building power via it, etc.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

The problem is that there is no logical way for a Triforceless Link to take hits from a Full Triforce empowered Ganon, that doesn't make sense, even with a sword that can kill him, it's illogical, and because of that, along with all the other points I brought up, the most logical conclusion would be that Ganon wasn't empowered by the Full Triforce, as nothing proves he was.

Yes there is, the fact that he has a massively amped Golden master Sword which is specifically made to fight against the triforce not only by the manuals, but by the fact that the Master Sword along with the triforce is cultivated by the goddesses flames along with being blessed by the gods as stated in Wind Waker. He also has the silver arrows which can perma kill Ganon as shown in OG LoZ. You arguing it "makes no logical sense" is not an argument whatsoever, when you're missing what this triforceless Link has in context.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

But he didn't give any reasons other than "it wasn't in the other room", which my images prove that it very clearly was in the altar in the next room.

That doesn't change the fact that the Triforce openly acknowledged Ganon as its owner and amplified. The Triforce is what even allowed Ganon to originally "transcend space and time," which isn't something he would've done normally otherwise. It clearly amped him, regardless of the room.

 

[Warren_Valion]

That doesn't change the fact that the Triforce openly acknowledged Ganon as its owner and amplified. The Triforce is what even allowed Ganon to originally "transcend space and time," which isn't something he would've done normally otherwise. It clearly amped him, regardless of the room.

Being an owner =/= it being absorbed in your body

Where are you getting this nonsense?

Link walked up to the Triforce, and the Triforce said, "Make a wish and become my new master".



And WHAT? The Triforce never did that. Nothing proves that Ganon was amped whatsoever, where are you getting this from? The fact that Ganon needed to increase his strength to conquer the Light World, instead of using the Triforce, shows that alternating multiple realms simultaneously is beyond its capabilities.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Yes there is, the fact that he has a massively amped Golden master Sword which is specifically made to fight against the triforce not only by the manuals, but by the fact that the Master Sword along with the triforce is cultivated by the goddesses flames along with being blessed by the gods as stated in Wind Waker. He also has the silver arrows which can perma kill Ganon as shown in OG LoZ. You arguing it "makes no logical sense" is not an argument whatsoever, when you're missing what this triforceless Link has in context.

1. DId you read the proper translations of the manuals? It wasn't made to contest the Triforce, but the person who took the Triforce.

2. Even if it was as you say, this lore has clearly been retconned and is non-applicable.

3. Just because the Master Sword was forged in the Goddesses flames and blessed by Gods doesn't mean anything, Base Ganondorf deals with the regular Master Sword.


Having arrows or weapons that a character is weak to or negates their immortality =/= they are physical a match against their opponent. I don't have a problem with Link killing Ganon, but being able to take attacks from him. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Warren_Valion]

In this case it does since it's specifically in context it's the very thing that allows him to keep stuff like the dark world sustained. Idk what the Link triforce example is supposed to be, he naturally has the full triforce amp too.

Link the scene, I think I know what you're talking about and if it is what I'm thinking about there's context being missing.

Not really since ALTTP changed the rules right after with Ganondorf being the triforce's owner rather then it being an inanimate object he holds.

The essence of the triforce's existence, the fact that it directly states him being it's owner is what sustained the dark world, the fact that it's stated he's building power via it, etc.

No, it doesn't. Ganon's wish was to rule the world. To do that, the Triforce transformed the Sacred Realm to reflect what was in Ganon's heart. Ganon's wish wasn't temporary, so the Triforce sustains that wish, if Ganon dies, there's no evil to reflect onto the world. The Link example shows that you become the "owner" of the Triforce, when you touch the Triforce and make a wish - not absorb it. So being the Triforce's "owner" doesn't mean that you've absorbed the whole thing in your body.

As I mentioned in my original post, the Triforce's wish-granting abilities have never ever EVER been used by a person with the Triforce absorbed into their skin. They always have to summon the Triforce outside of their body, touch the Triforce, and then make their wish. And assuming a character with the Triforce absorbed into them can make wishes is completely instantiated. I gave a reference to Omega Shenron as a perfect comparison as to why you can't make this assumption, as that's not how that works.

I linked it in the OP, and no, there is no context missing. Link reforges the Triforce of Courage, goes to the entrance of Hyrule at the Tower of the Gods, holds up the Triforce, the entrances opens, and then he looks at his hand to see the Triforce piece has fused with him.

Actually, now that I remember it, I know your full of shit - because, in the artwork of Adventure of Link, we literally see the Triforce of Courage being within Link. Showing that even back then in the NES Zelda days, it was an object that can be absorbed. So you're wrong.


The Triforce having sentience doesn't mean it's absorbed into Ganondorf's body, The Triforce being in possession of another doesn't mean it's absorbed into Ganondorf's body, The Triforce answering Ganon's wish doesn't mean it's absorbed into Ganondorf's body (In fact, it implies the opposite). Ganon gaining more and more power over time so he can conquer the Light World doesn't mean it's absorbed into Ganondorf's body, and no? The Triforce never says it is the reason for Ganon's growth in power, this is the quote.

"Ganon was building up this power here so he could conquer the Light World and make his wish come completely true."

Nothing about this says that the Triforce is increasing Ganon's power - if it did, then you would have a piece of evidence for a viable argument.

These aren't reasonings that coincide with this argument. These are either unrelated points or just straight-up wrong statements. The fact that you can't directly give me any evidence that Ganon has absorbed the Full Triforce, and it is clearly shown that he hasn't visually, shows that he didn't do it.

And scaling him to it is inaccurate.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

No, it doesn't. Ganon's wish was to rule the world. To do that, the Triforce transformed the Sacred Realm to reflect what was in Ganon's heart. Ganon's wish wasn't temporary, so the Triforce sustains that wish, if Ganon dies, there's no evil to reflect onto the world. The Link example shows that you become the "owner" of the Triforce, when you touch the Triforce and make a wish - not absorb it. So being the Triforce's "owner" doesn't mean that you've absorbed the whole thing in your body.

As I mentioned in my original post, the Triforce's wish-granting abilities have never ever EVER been used by a person with the Triforce absorbed into their skin. They always have to summon the Triforce outside of their body, touch the Triforce, and then make their wish. And assuming a character with the Triforce absorbed into them can make wishes is completely instantiated. I gave a reference to Omega Shenron as a perfect comparison as to why you can't make this assumption, as that's not how that works.

I linked it in the OP, and no, there is no context missing. Link reforges the Triforce of Courage, goes to the entrance of Hyrule at the Tower of the Gods, holds up the Triforce, the entrances opens, and then he looks at his hand to see the Triforce piece has fused with him.

Actually, now that I remember it, I know your full of shit - because, in the artwork of Adventure of Link, we literally see the Triforce of Courage being within Link. Showing that even back then in the NES Zelda days, it was an object that can be absorbed. So you're wrong.


The Triforce having sentience doesn't mean it's absorbed into Ganondorf's body, The Triforce being in possession of another doesn't mean it's absorbed into Ganondorf's body, The Triforce answering Ganon's wish doesn't mean it's absorbed into Ganondorf's body (In fact, it implies the opposite). Ganon gaining more and more power over time so he can conquer the Light World doesn't mean it's absorbed into Ganondorf's body, and no? The Triforce never says it is the reason for Ganon's growth in power, this is the quote.

"Ganon was building up this power here so he could conquer the Light World and make his wish come completely true."

Nothing about this says that the Triforce is increasing Ganon's power - if it did, then you would have a piece of evidence for a viable argument.

These aren't reasonings that coincide with this argument. These are either unrelated points or just straight-up wrong statements. The fact that you can't directly give me any evidence that Ganon has absorbed the Full Triforce, and it is clearly shown that he hasn't visually, shows that he didn't do it.

And scaling him to it is inaccurate.

His wish was to rule both the light and dark world, he hasn't ruled both yet so his wish was never complete, there's no wish to be sustained as the conditions haven't been fully met. Also there is evil to reflect onto the world, the hundreds of other thieves and evil monsters in the dark world. The Link example shows you become the owner of the triforce when you touch it, not that you have to touch it for all of time, no one argued against you needing to touch the triforce first before you can wield it. So this example is for an argument that was never made. You don't need to absorb it because it empowers you from your wish alone, hence why Ganon has become an all-powerful being that needed to be sealed away before his wish was complete.

Age of Calamity's entire plot is what you're trying to argue was never done. Also the full argument you're making here is something that doesn't work because we've only see the full triforce used in 2-3 instances with each being situational and specific wishes being made for each one.

No, this is greatly out of context. In Wind Waker your job is to fully assemble the triforce of courage and present it to the gods, by this point in the game Link is not considered/recognized as the true hero yet, the entire reason he isn't amped is because it's not his triforce piece until the gods eventually officialize it. He's not even the owner of the triforce of courage he's holding, it's a piece he reassembled. This is missing context greatly.

Why are you getting unnecessarily aggressive just because one game that's not the original LoZ did that? The original LoZ was the example you used, not adventure of Link. The example I refuted was based off original LoZ. Original LoZ the triforce of wisdom and power aren't fused within your soul, they're floating objects that amp you. Notice official artwork of Link killing Ganon with triforce of wisdom or how in the story Zelda takes the triforce of wisdom and breaks it into pieces across Hyrule. Hence why the example of LoZ doesn't work, the way triforce pieces worked then aren't the way they work afterwards.

If that was the reason alone sure, but actually refute the claim along with the entire sentence other then trying to act like I said purely because the triforce is sentient Ganon is amped by it. None of my arguments revolve around it being absorbed into his body I'm saying it doesn't need to be in his body to amp him as shown from what Ganon can do due to the full triforce and how it still recognized Ganon as it's owner.

He was building up power to make his wish come true, where did his wish come from? The Triforce. Put two and two together and stop acting like an explicit statement is needed for something self-evident. It's clear the triforce is the one building his power since Ganon has never beforehand displayed getting passively stronger and it's only done specifically when he does his wish.

These are reasons that coincide with the argument, not my fault if you don't see that. I gave you evidence, you're attempting to get unnecessarily hostile and jump to conclusions like it's almost like you're taking this way too ******* seriously lmao, calm down my boy.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Being an owner =/= it being absorbed in your body

Where are you getting this nonsense?

Link walked up to the Triforce, and the Triforce said, "Make a wish and become my new master".

And WHAT? The Triforce never did that. Nothing proves that Ganon was amped whatsoever, where are you getting this from? The fact that Ganon needed to increase his strength to conquer the Light World, instead of using the Triforce, shows that alternating multiple realms simultaneously is beyond its capabilities.

It literally wouldn't matter if it was absorbed into him or not; it very clearly amplified him. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure this out.

Okay? What does that debunk at all. That'd just mean that Link came in possession of the Triforce after slaughtering the pigman who had.

Yes, it quite literally did. I remember seeing the thread where it was translated that the Triforce specifically allowed him to do that.

"鮮血に汚れた手で首領がトライフォースに触れると紋章の精霊がささやきました。「汝、望むもの有らば、我もまた、それを望む。」時空を越え、はるか遠くのハイラルにも、こだまするほど首領は大声で笑い続けたそう です。男の名はガノンドロフ、通り名を魔盗族ガノン。" = "After the leader touched Triforce with his bloodied hand, the spirit of the crest whispered. 'You, if you have a wish, that is my wish as well.' The leader laughed, heard throughout the Hyrule, transcending time and space. His name is Ganondorf, the nickname of Demon King Ganon."

Ganon would not be able to do such a thing without the Triforce; that much is evident from the text itself. I'm not sure how you're getting the idea it didn't amp him at all. It's mentioned quite a few times to be the case. Also, that's because the dude was kinda sealed there, lol.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

1. DId you read the proper translations of the manuals? It wasn't made to contest the Triforce, but the person who took the Triforce.

2. Even if it was as you say, this lore has clearly been retconned and is non-applicable.

3. Just because the Master Sword was forged in the Goddesses flames and blessed by Gods doesn't mean anything, Base Ganondorf deals with the regular Master Sword.


Having arrows or weapons that a character is weak to or negates their immortality =/= they are physical a match against their opponent. I don't have a problem with Link killing Ganon, but being able to take attacks from him. It doesn't make any sense.

The person who took the triforce uses it's magic for dark, guess what that means? It's contesting the triforce.

Correction, part of the Lore has been retconned, aka the people forging it got retconend, you realize retcons don't result as a whole no longer existing but the sums no longer existing correct? The part where it's meant to contest the triforce is supported in further establishments with Hylia directly needing to amp the sword with the power of the golden goddessess and their blessings to combat their other sacred object powered by them.

That's not a refute Warren, elaborate rather then giving a incomplete sentence. Base Ganondorf deals with a weakened regular Master Sword.

The Master Sword physically amps Link. Link uses it to harm Ganon. He's a physical match for Ganon.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Ploz is making sense here.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Yup I agree with ploz and giver they basically said all I wanted to say.

 

[Firestorm808]

To my understanding, Ganondorf used the Complete Triforce in this era to make himself as powerful as possible in his new Ganon form much as he did with just the Triforce of Power back in Ocarina of Time.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You don't really need to eat the Triforce to be amped by it, you just need to be in possession of it; an external energy amplification is still an amplification.

 

[AshenCrow777]

^^^this

 

[Warren_Valion]

It literally wouldn't matter if it was absorbed into him or not; it very clearly amplified him. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure this out.

Okay? What does that debunk at all. That'd just mean that Link came in possession of the Triforce after slaughtering the pigman who had.

Yes, it quite literally did. I remember seeing the thread where it was translated that the Triforce specifically allowed him to do that.

"鮮血に汚れた手で首領がトライフォースに触れると紋章の精霊がささやきました。「汝、望むもの有らば、我もまた、それを望む。」時空を越え、はるか遠くのハイラルにも、こだまするほど首領は大声で笑い続けたそう です。男の名はガノンドロフ、通り名を魔盗族ガノン。" = "After the leader touched Triforce with his bloodied hand, the spirit of the crest whispered. 'You, if you have a wish, that is my wish as well.' The leader laughed, heard throughout the Hyrule, transcending time and space. His name is Ganondorf, the nickname of Demon King Ganon."

Ganon would not be able to do such a thing without the Triforce; that much is evident from the text itself. I'm not sure how you're getting the idea it didn't amp him at all. It's mentioned quite a few times to be the case. Also, that's because the dude was kinda sealed there, lol.

You do realize that none of these scans are on the profiles or are currently used on them as the proof for these claims, right?

These scans actually do provide evidence of your claims, but they should be on the profiles.

Except this one doesn't prove that it boosted Ganon's power - just that Ganon used the Triforce to make an Evil wish. But the other two work since they directly imply that Ganon's power is boosted by the Triforce, instead of circumstantial nonsense like, "He's the owner" or "he made a bad wish".

Where did you get these scans btw? Like which guide? How credible is that source?


And are you serious with this quote? His "laugh" being heard throughout Hyrule, transcending time and space?

This doesn't say much of anything at all. It also doesn't say it's because of the Triforce amping up his power either, just that the Triforce was going to grant his wish, so he laughed.

 

[Warren_Valion]

You don't really need to eat the Triforce to be amped by it, you just need to be in possession of it; an external energy amplification is still an amplification.

When has this ever been a thing in the series? Examples, barring the two scans I have conceded to from Ploz's reply?

I am curious, since from what I have seen, no, this is not the case at all.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Anyway, I would like to apologize for not responding, I left the wiki for a week to focus on Finals.

Now that I am done, I am back.


Can everyone clearly restate their positioning on both parts of the thread again, so I can have an easy time counting the votes - I am that lazy, sorry.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do agree Internal energy sources are usually more in your face indicators, being empowered by a sun shining on you doesn't make you star level, but it is possible for it to amp someone more than it looks. And eating a sun is a better reason to be star level.

But that's pretty much the premise; his Giant Boar form was achieved for being amped by the Complete Triforce to begin with and it was why he sought himself as invincible at least until Link came with the re amplified Master Sword.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I do agree Internal energy sources are usually more in your face indicators, being empowered by a sun shining on you doesn't make you star level, but it is possible for it to amp someone more than it looks. And eating a sun is a better reason to be star level.

But that's pretty much the premise; his Giant Boar form was achieved for being amped by the Complete Triforce to begin with and it was why he sought himself as invincible at least until Link came with the re amplified Master Sword.

I mean, Ocarina of Time shows us that it wasn't the Full Triforce that turned Ganon into this Pig Form, just the Triforce of Power.

And correct me if I am wrong, and I am likely wrong since I haven't looked at this game in a decade, but Four Swords Adventure Ganondorf turned into Ganon on his own without the Triforce IIRC.

So I don't think that's entirely a valid interpretation of events.