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(Another) Triforce Tiering and Scaling Revision Thread

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Complete Triforce is what made Ganon permanently lose his base Gerudo form, and he was now able to keep his sharp mind on top of staying giant. Or even wiser thanks to having the Triforce of Wisdom. The reincarnated one in FSA being giant via the Trident as Firestorm said yes.
 
I'm ok with the Triforce being 4-A via scaling to the Wind Fish, but I don't really buy 3-A via world statements. Mostly because the whole clip on the creation of hyrule, they refer to the "world" as the earth that they're creating. Nothing in the context of OoT's triforce origins remotely mentions the world being anything universal, and I double checked on the 3DS version of OoT and they didn't really change the dialogue. They still refer to the "world" as Earth, and not the universe. So I'm ok with 4-A Triforce.

As for the whole empowering triforce thing, where are those scans regarding the whole "Ganon gets stronger thanks to the triforce helping him" comes from? Cause Zelda ain't exactly new when it comes to retconning some established lore for older games, cough Master Sword being made by the people of Hyrule cough
 
Theglassman12 said:
I'm ok with the Triforce being 4-A via scaling to the Wind Fish, but I don't really buy 3-A via world statements. Mostly because the whole clip on the creation of hyrule, they refer to the "world" as the earth that they're creating. Nothing in the context of OoT's triforce origins remotely mentions the world being anything universal, and I double checked on the 3DS version of OoT and they didn't really change the dialogue. They still refer to the "world" as Earth, and not the universe. So I'm ok with 4-A Triforce.

As for the whole empowering triforce thing, where are those scans regarding the whole "Ganon gets stronger thanks to the triforce helping him" comes from? Cause Zelda ain't exactly new when it comes to retconning some established lore for older games, cough Master Sword being made by the people of Hyrule cough
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Unless you think that the Light World is just Earth floating in the Void and the GGs are only 5-B for creating multiple planets, which is contradicted by starry skies showing us that space does exist around Earth and like a dozen tier 4 feats done by infinitely weaker characters, it's very obvious that by the "world" the GGs created, it means they created Hyrule/Earth and everything else in creation.

Let's not forget there is a statement that directly says that Ganon's desire to rule the cosmos as well and that it can only be done with the Triforce, which is pretty explicit proof that it means more than just a mere planet.
 
Let's not forget the statements of the GG's literally creating MILLIONS of alternate universes by accident.

So like Warren said unless you think the light world is just some planet floating in empty space your pretty wrong, especially when wind waker and majoras mask shows our entire star constellations in the games especially BOTW.
 
The world in that context doesn't tell me it's the universe, they literally refer to the world as the earth. And I never once said that the GG's are 5-B. I said that the world that they're referring to was elaborated as the earth.

The cosmos translation you said was from an older translation, the better translation "that you said btw", doesn't tell me it's the cosmos, just that it refers to alternate worlds.

when was that stated to be something the GG's have done?
 
Din creating the Land/Earth is not the part that's Tier 2, Nayru creating the concept of Order is more arguably that, but I'm iffy about scaling anyone directly from the goddesses.

The part that's universe is just that multiple scans back to back eventually leads to at the very least the body of space in which Hyrule takes place in is an actual universe. I'll compare and contrast some known details with things needing scans.

For things common knowledge recap
  • Sacred Realm is at least High 4-C via sheer size given image linked on profile. Being a High 4-C sized pocket reality or Universe is up to debate.
  • Hyrule does have starry skies, so it's either 4-A sized or a Universe. But it does share the same constellations as the Milky Way Galaxy in Wind Waker, so universe seems more believable. This isn't evidence that anyone is universal yet, but just that universes exist seems common knowledge.
Things that need scans
  • Sacred Realm being a "Parallel World/Dimension" to the Light World/World of Hyrule. This would upgrade Sacred Realm to universal size.
 
Literally this the light world and every other worlds are universal sized it makes no sense for the main setting created by 3 2-B being to cap at planetary or solar system.


And this was there AFTER the retcon and thus still making it valid plus every Zelda game that happens in another universe like lorule, subrosia, labrynna etc are realms created by them.

Screenshot_20190331-002805.png
 
And again this was a
Extremely casual feat done by them. this is reinforced by the fact that almost every universe that we know of have their own triforce (and triforces are only created by the GGs).


normal translation says that the triforces contains their powers not "a fraction" or "a small part" just that it contains their combined powers in it.
 
Termina was confirmed to be a Universe, but there's just no evidence Majora actually created it. But Universal+ range is something Majora still has.
 
Ok can you give me actual translations on them being the exact same power? I want actual scans on the triforce flat out stated them being on that level. Cause I don't recall them ever stated to be on the same level as the golden goddesses. On top of every single world ever having a triforce.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Termina was confirmed to be a Universe, but there's just no evidence Majora actually created it. But Universal+ range is something Majora still has.
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Yup plus universal mindhax and madness manip since he corruptes the universe with just his mind or something like that(but what happened to the realm he created in the moon?)
 
"After forming all that is, when it was time for them to depart this realm, the gods consummated the land with a symbol forged of their own power, in the form of a sacred, golden, triangle: the "Triforce.""


Plus every single universe having a triforce is practically almost a given, light world, Lorule, Age of calamity alternate timeline, Hyrule Warriors (it is considered a world created by them and Canon within the zelda verse just independent of the main timeline), Cadence of Hyrule is surprisingly canon/ambiguously Canon.



All of these have their own triforces not surprising since the triforces is what keeps the balance of their respective universe in check since its literally imbued with the concept of law (Nayru) and like Hylia said "it can change/affect the essence of all things"
 
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Warren_Valion said:
You do realize that none of these scans are on the profiles or are currently used on them as the proof for these claims, right?

These scans actually do provide evidence of your claims, but they should be on the profiles.

Except this one doesn't prove that it boosted Ganon's power - just that Ganon used the Triforce to make an Evil wish. But the other two work since they directly imply that Ganon's power is boosted by the Triforce, instead of circumstantial nonsense like, "He's the owner" or "he made a bad wish".

Where did you get these scans btw? Like which guide? How credible is that source?


And are you serious with this quote? His "laugh" being heard throughout Hyrule, transcending time and space?

This doesn't say much of anything at all. It also doesn't say it's because of the Triforce amping up his power either, just that the Triforce was going to grant his wish, so he laughed.
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Apologies that it took so long to reply btw. My sickness lasted a couple of days after I said that, and I had forgotten about this thread until a friend brought it up.

If the profiles do not currently use them, we would add them as further justification. They don't receive use because this is pretty commonly accepted, but I can understand the qualm. That scan should be genuine support for the idea too. It mentions how Ganon tuned its power for his evil purposes.

You can find the scans in a SNES Player's Guide; I'd say it's credible considering it's officially licensed, approved, and comes from Nintendo itself (from what I've looked up). I've been reading Hyrule Encyclopedia recently too, and the idea seems supported in there. It notes that Ganondorf transforming in his Beast Form was testing the Triforce of Power's limits. Considering he has a full transformation in A Link to the Past, the implication would seemingly be he's using the Complete Triforce when permanently staying in the form (this is consistent with the fact that he was a human before coming in contact with it too).

Yes, I am serious with that quote. The laugh isn't what transcends space-time either. Ganon does that while he is transcending space-time. Not only does it show his transformation into his pig form (aligning with the Hyrule Encyclopedia entry), but he only transcended space-time because of the Triforce. I'm not sure how that wouldn't show Ganondorf's amplification upfront.
 
The first post seems to make sense to me, but I am not the best person to ask.

What are the conclusions so far here?
 
Let's already add the new justifactions for the triforce and let's wait for an answer from Warren about A Link to the Past, even though I think that Ploz makes the most sense here.
 
Which was debunked by Ploz.

So far I would say: Ploz, DDM, Dat, Firestorm808, Ionist(?), Lgamer and I agree that Link and Ganondorf from ALTTP do scale to the Triforce (the scans posted by Ploz proves it).

Glass and Warren (he hasn't said anything yet but that was his stance before) are against it.
 
I didn't get notifications for my own thread.

Nice.


Also, I don't know where this belief that I was still against the idea of 3-A Ganon being a thing, when I have directly said, "Holy shit, someone actually gave direct proof of their claims."

Unlike everyone else that kept saying something along the lines of, "He is the owner of the Triforce so obviously he is using it to augment his strength" or, "He is noted to be getting stronger, so it has to be the Triforce making him stronger" despite the visual evidence implying otherwise.

I am fine with the idea, but since there was no definitive proof, and proof of the opposite, I was actively against it.

Now that I have seen proof, I am in support of it - since there are scans saying as such.

PlozAlcachaz said:
Yes, I am serious with that quote. The laugh isn't what transcends space-time either. Ganon does that while he is transcending space-time. Not only does it show his transformation into his pig form (aligning with the Hyrule Encyclopedia entry), but he only transcended space-time because of the Triforce. I'm not sure how that wouldn't show Ganondorf's amplification upfront.
Click to expand...

"After the leader touched Triforce with his bloodied hand, the spirit of the crest whispered. 'You, if you have a wish, that is my wish as well.' The leader laughed, heard throughout the Hyrule, transcending time and space. His name is Ganondorf, the nickname of Demon King Ganon."

It's not, "the leader, heard throughout Hyrule, transcended space and time", it's the leader laughed, which was heard throughout Hyrule as it was transcending space and time because it was heard in a different reality.

At best this is maybe a statement determining range, maybe, at best? And at worst, and most likely, just flowery nonsense.

Honestly, this quote is ridiculous and it shouldn't be used for anything - push the facts and direct statements that support your narrative, not verbal fluff like this.
 
Warren_Valion said:
"After the leader touched Triforce with his bloodied hand, the spirit of the crest whispered. 'You, if you have a wish, that is my wish as well.' The leader laughed, heard throughout the Hyrule, transcending time and space. His name is Ganondorf, the nickname of Demon King Ganon."

It's not, "the leader, heard throughout Hyrule, transcended space and time", it's the leader laughed, which was heard throughout Hyrule as it was transcending space and time because it was heard in a different reality.

At best this is maybe a statement determining range, maybe, at best? And at worst, and most likely, just flowery nonsense.

Honestly, this quote is ridiculous and it shouldn't be used for anything - push the facts and direct statements that support your narrative, not verbal fluff like this.
Click to expand...
The version you gave would literally illustrate the same point, as it still includes "heard throughout Hyrule." The laugh itself isn't what only transcends space-time is the point, Ganon does as well.

You're missing the point; I was arguing that it allowed him to do something unique. That's not something he can normally do without the Triforce backing him. Also, said, "verbal fluff" is a narrative exposition that supports the point. I'm not using it as my main argument either; that's literally why I said it was just a supporting point broski. I'm not using it to determine any physical statistics, so you're appealing to an argument I never made.

Regardless, considering you agreed that the original idea that he wasn't amplified is wrong, we can drop this subject and move on. Discussing it further is counterintuitive to the thread, and you should focus on Glassman's gripes.
 
The translations doesn't remotely tell me that it's the literal full power of the golden goddesses, it literally just says it's a symbol of their power. By that logic any character who taps into a power of their race, being the "symbol of their power" means that any weak character would just automatically scale to the strongest character with no other justification.
 
I do agree that "Symbol" of their power doesn't mean all of it.
 
Barring any problems that Glass might have, most of what has been brought up here has been concluded, I believe.

So to wrap up things here, I would like to discuss the scaling of characters to the Full Triforce, and some problems have with it.

I would like to admit I was wrong on one notion, the notion that the Master Sword was designed in A Link to the Past as an "anti-Triforce" by repelling its magic wasn't retconned - because it never existed in the first place.

Given the proper translations, as shown here.

Here is the NOA translation:

"Suspecting that Ganon's power was based on the Triforce's magic, the people of Hyrule forged a sword resistant to magic which could repulse even powers granted by the Triforce. This mighty weapon became known as the blade of evil's bane, [...]"

Here is Johan's "Literal" translation:

"Accordingly, to repel an evil "kidnapping" of the Triforce, Hyrule's people were informed by a divine oracle to make an "expel-evil" sword."

Here's Zethar-II's "Cleaner" translation:

"For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane."

And here is an "important note" from the translator:

"Important: the American translation introduces its own story, and thus introduces an inconsistency with later games. A divine oracle (or a "divine message" from the gods, i.e. God's voice) told the people to make a mighty sword, supposedly long before the appearance of Ganondorf. They did not create it by themselves in response to Ganon's rise to power. The Master Sword is indeed older than we thought, since later the sages aren't even sure if it existed and had to search for it (see below). This means it was not created at the time of Ganon's rise, and thus that the sword can be legendary in OoT.

Also note that the blade is supposed to repel the evil one who would steal the Triforce, not "powers granted by the Triforce." So it does not, as we previously though, merely repel Triforce magic; it repels ANY evil!"

What this all clearly states is that the idea that The Master Sword repels the Triforce's magic is made up by the North American translation team, and in actuality, what the Master Sword repels is evil.

This is, in retrospect, obvious, since it is the Blade of Evil's Bane. It's meant to be a weapon that repels and kills evil.

What does this mean? Well, this would affect the Master Sword's Powers and Abilities section a bit, but I think that topic should be for a different future thread as it goes off-topic from this thread's topic, which is the Full Triforce.

As for what this means for this thread, mainly, that Link beating Ganon should likely be considered an outlier. And Link scaling to Ganon, and therefore the Full Triforce, is factitious as Link shouldn't have been capable of winning this fight at all, and if he did win the fight, it is due to a weakness of Ganon, not Link's strength, and thus, he shouldn't scale to the Full Triforce.
 
Also, I agree with Dark and Glass that "symbol" =/= whole, and, in fact, implies the opposite - that it is merely a piece of a much greater whole.

Or that it means being a symbol is just representative of what their power is. That the symbol of the Triforce means divinity.
 
Actually, it's been retconned that Master Sword is the "Blade of Evil's bane" in later Japanese versions; it now says "Demon's Bane" specifically.

Also, normally I would have agreed on the outlier part given Link does seems to get much weaker in Link's Awakening. But I think it's better to just say the amped up Master Sword was the source of his power. The Golden Sword is an amplified version that made the Master Sword much stronger than it ever was. So of course returning the Master Sword to its pedestal would give him a downgrade. Same with the Silver Arrows.
 
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Warren_Valion said:
What this all clearly states is that the idea that The Master Sword repels the Triforce's magic is made up by the North American translation team, and in actuality, what the Master Sword repels is evil.

This is, in retrospect, obvious, since it is the Blade of Evil's Bane. It's meant to be a weapon that repels and kills evil.

What does this mean? Well, this would affect the Master Sword's Powers and Abilities section a bit, but I think that topic should be for a different future thread as it goes off-topic from this thread's topic, which is the Full Triforce.

As for what this means for this thread, mainly, that Link beating Ganon should likely be considered an outlier. And Link scaling to Ganon, and therefore the Full Triforce, is factitious as Link shouldn't have been capable of winning this fight at all, and if he did win the fight, it is due to a weakness of Ganon, not Link's strength, and thus, he shouldn't scale to the Full Triforce.
Click to expand...
I heavily disagree with this. Link should still completely scale to Ganon w/ the Full Triforce in A Link to the Past. The Master Sword specifically amplifies its wielder, and the version of the Master Sword this Link uses, the Golden Master Sword, is noted to be the strongest version of it. Going by how the Master Sword works and the specific iteration this version uses, Link winning is something that makes sense. He has a version of the Master Sword that most of the other Links cannot even compare to. If you have the context that this is a ridiculously empowered Link from an amp that others do not have, there is literally no reason to label it as an outlier.
 
Heck need I remind people that parts of ALTTP was retconed in Skyward sword? The translator end up being wrong about the master sword not being a counter to the Triforce when Link in skyward legit made the MS out of the TF.


These translations dates back to 8/25/2003. Skyward sword change some stuff and cleaned up the lore.

Its even said that Hylia specifically attuned Link's soul so that he would be compatible with the Triforce itself. thus explaining why Link was able to be the owner of the Tf several times and other individual pieces.


Din's Flame (literally the Triforce of power) is what imbued the sword with the Power to Repel Evil.

"All the while, Link continued with his task of tempering the Goddess Sword in the Sacred Flames of the Golden Goddesses. Imbued with the immense, sacred power of the Force, the Goddess Sword was transformed into the Master Sword." (Hyrule Historia (Dark Horse Books)

"The sacred red flame has imbued your blade with a divine power that repels evil." — N/A (Skyward Sword)

Every flames (pieces of the Triforce) was literally used to make the MS. The master sword is literally the Triforce in sword form without the wishing abilities but it has everything else.

"Along your travels you have found wisdom, power, and courage, and for this I shall bless your sword with the goddess's power. May it give you and your sword the strength to drive back the abomination that threatens this land!" — Zelda (Skyward Sword)

Like said above Link acquired all the pieces and on top of tempering the master sword in the GGs flames (Sacred flames are considered to also be the life force of everything in the universe which makes sense. It's combined form is the Triforce that keeps the balance of the universe in check) it received the blessings of Hylia.

Link with the Master sword at its peak (True Master sword form, Golden Master sword form and Master sword Lv.4) is Amp by all pieces plus Hylia powers.

Just because it's called the sword of evil bane doesn't mean it's only effective against evil people.

Need I remind people the MS literally almost killed Link in BOTW... because it considered its own master too weak to weild them?

And Link is considered the Paragon of his kind the ultimate incarnation of heroism/power/wisdom/courage and good.

And yet the Blade that is "suppose to only affect evil" almost killed him.

"First, you and your sword must grow together. Faron Woods...Eldin Volcano...and Lanayru Desert... A sacred flame is hidden somewhere in each of these lands. Seek them out, and purify your sword in their heat. Only after your blade has been tempered by these three fires will it be fully imbued with the great power for which you search." — Impa (Skyward Sword)

The great power we searched ended being the Triforce and like impa said it (the sword) will be imbued with its power.


"Master, now that it has been tempered by the last of the sacred flames, your blade has finally revealed its true form. You now hold the Master Sword." — Fi (Skyward Sword)

The true form of the master sword can only be achieved by (again) powering it with the full triforce.

"There can be no doubt. The sacred flames have purified this blade. Well done, Link. That sword holds tremendous power. That power is a sacred force. It is a divine power left to us by the gods of old. The same power that is spoken of in the Ballad of the Goddess." — Impa (Skyward Sword)


Impa saying and confirming that the sacred force. the divine power left by the GGs, the same one repeatedly stated in the ballad of the goddess song the same song that helps you find the TF (sacred flames/triforce pieces) has purified/evolved/refined the MS and now MS at full power holds a power equal to the TF since it was literally made out of it.

And all 3 of them (Link, TF and Ms) were literally made for each other.


So no Link winning against Ganon is not an outlier when you actually look into the official history of the Master, the Triforce and by proxy Link.

Link created the ultimate weapon that would last him for generations to come.
 
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Totally agree with Ploz and DarkMedeus.
If It is a unique sword, that most Link hasn't, which is confirmed to boost up Link in that game I don't see why It should be considered an outlier.
It makes sense to me that the most powerful version of the Master Sword can keep up with the Full Triforce in Link's hands.
 
This is nonsense.

A fairy amping the Master Sword =/= Totally viable for Link to be as strong as Ganon with the Full Triforce

The Triforce is described as "omnipotent" in the setting of A Link to the Past. The fact that you proved Ganon was amped by the Full Triforce, makes his downfall illogical.

Why would an amp from a Fairy, even a Great Fairy, mean anything to the might of the Golden Goddesses? That doesn't make any sense.

Also, the sword's strength is exceptionally effective against Evil, and it is stated that the Triforce's energy becomes evil when used to make an Evil wish - so, at the very best, Link defeating Ganon is due to the Master Sword's mechanics of repelling evil, not Link's physical strength, and at worst, an outlier.

In either case, he wouldn't scale.


Also, where is this idea that The Master Sword amps Link's strength comes from?

I don't ever remember this being stated at all. Just that Master Sword repels evil as it is the Blade of Evil's Bane. You would think if the sword made you physically stronger, it would be more noted within the verse.

Also, no. The Master Sword needing 13 hearts in Breath of the Wild doesn't count, it is a game mechanic - otherwise, that would mean that every other Link with just three hearts is stronger than BotW Link, which is absurd.


Also, @AshenCrow777, what is this headcanon nonsense you are spewing?


The flames of the Goddesses that tempered the Goddess Sword into the Master Sword =/= Piece of the Triforce just because they are associated with each Golden Goddess. And the Master Sword =/= The Full Triforce. What?

Just because the flames have divine power from each God, and tempering the Goddess Sword in them imbues it with great power (Turning it into the Master Sword), that doesn't mean it's power is equivalent to a piece of the Triforce, and that the Master Sword is equivalent to the Full Triforce. Nothing proves that, like at all.

And if you take the sword amping the user in tangent with this headcanon, that would make every Link with the Master Sword 3-A, which is just wrong.
 
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