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(Another) Triforce Tiering and Scaling Revision Thread

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I'll come back to maybe counter some arguments, but I feel like there were a couple strawmans. But I'm pretty sure he only implied True Master Sword from SS and Golden Sword from ALttP are Universal tier.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'll come back to maybe counter some arguments, but I feel like there were a couple strawmans. But I'm pretty sure he only implied True Master Sword from SS and Golden Sword from ALttP are Universal tier.
Click to expand...

Strawman? Are ******* serious?


Look at these quotes from him:

"Din's Flame (literally the Triforce of power) is what imbued the sword with the Power to Repel Evil."

"Every flames (pieces of the Triforce) was literally used to make the MS. The master sword is literally the Triforce in sword form without the wishing abilities but it has everything else."

How am I straw-manning? He literally said the Sacred Flames = Triforce Piece and that Master Sword = Full Triforce without wishing abilities.

I responded that those ideas are unsubstantiated by anything - it's not a strawman.

He considers the blessings from Hylia, and from the Full Triforce apparently (although that never happened IIRC), etc are just icing on the cake.
 
I was only talking about the "All Master Sword forms are 3-A" that's the only strawman part. But I'm running a bit late for work atm, so I may have said something hasty.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I was only talking about the "All Master Sword forms are 3-A" that's the only strawman part. But I'm running a bit late for work atm, so I may have said something hasty.
Click to expand...
If Master Sword (without any blessings) is = The Full Triforce because they were tempered in the sacred flames, which to him equal a piece of the Triforce, then yes. That would make every Link with the MS 3-A.

That's the logic that he is giving. It's not a strawman.


Have fun at work
 
Dude what are you talking about? That's one hell of a strawman I only said several times that the only things that scales to the Full Triforce is the Freaking True master sword, Golden Master sword and master sword Lv. 4.


Never have I said that all versions of Link gets to be on the same level as the ones who clearly scales to the master sword so I don't see where you got that idea from.

Especially when 3 of the master sword form is clearly superior to all the other ones.


Plus what headcanon? Impa literally bloody tells you that the sacred flames are the pieces of triforces did you not read the quotes?

"There can be no doubt. The sacred flames have purified this blade. Well done, Link. That sword holds tremendous power. That power is a sacred force. It is a divine power left to us by the gods of old. The same power that is spoken of in the Ballad of the Goddess." — Impa (Skyward Sword)

The only divine power left by the GGs was the Triforce the same thing the ballad of the goddess songs literally tells you to go find because every flame you get LITERALLY gives you a piece of the Triforce.

"All the while, Link continued with his task of tempering the Goddess Sword in the Sacred Flames of the Golden Goddesses. Imbued with the immense, sacred power of the Force, the Goddess Sword was transformed into the Master Sword." (Hyrule Historia (Dark Horse Books) pg. 75)

It literally tells you that your sword was imbued with the sacred power "the Force" this is literally another way to call the Triforce it is also referred to as the "Golden Power" or the "Master Force"

So no there's no headcanon going around when the proof that the true master sword or its other upgraded version comparable to it is basically an equal to the TF when the whole point of the multipart quest in SS was to upgrade the goddesse's sword into the master and the only way to do it told by Impa was to use the power of the Force/sacred flames/pieces of triforce.

Because again the Sacred flames were pieces of triforce

2:00 to 2:46 and I dare you to say the Triforce of power is not the sacred flame

"that doesn't mean it's power is equivalent to a piece of the Triforce, and that the Master Sword is equivalent to the Full Triforce. "

Lmao no that video literally prove that notion wrong when again every flame is literally a piece of the Triforce and Impa confirms that the master sword was fused with each of their powers.

And once you completed the master sword the symbol of the Triforce is engraved in it signifying that the power of the Triforce is also embued in it



You literally see the Triforce shining on Link's hand and going through the sword giving its power and engraving the crest of the Full Triforce.

So yeah you were wrong.

One last thing let's not forget when Link weilds the MS it amps him with its powers
 
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AshenCrow777 said:
Dude what are you talking about? That's one hell of a strawman I only said several times that the only things that scales to the Full Triforce is the Freaking True master sword, Golden Master sword and master sword Lv. 4.


Never have I said that all versions of Link gets to be on the same level as the ones who clearly scales to the master sword so I don't see where you got that idea from.

Especially when 3 of the master sword form is clearly superior to all the other ones.


Plus what headcanon? Impa literally bloody tells you that the sacred flames are the pieces of triforces did you not read the quotes?

"There can be no doubt. The sacred flames have purified this blade. Well done, Link. That sword holds tremendous power. That power is a sacred force. It is a divine power left to us by the gods of old. The same power that is spoken of in the Ballad of the Goddess." — Impa (Skyward Sword)

The only divine power left by the GGs was the Triforce the same thing the ballad of the goddess songs literally tells you to go find because every flame you get LITERALLY gives you a piece of the Triforce.

"All the while, Link continued with his task of tempering the Goddess Sword in the Sacred Flames of the Golden Goddesses. Imbued with the immense, sacred power of the Force, the Goddess Sword was transformed into the Master Sword." (Hyrule Historia (Dark Horse Books) pg. 75)

It literally tells you that your sword was imbued with the sacred power "the Force" this is literally another way to call the Triforce it is also referred to as the "Golden Power" or the "Master Force"

So no there's no headcanon going around when the proof that the true master sword or its other upgraded version comparable to it is basically an equal to the TF when the whole point of the multipart quest in SS was to upgrade the goddesse's sword into the master and the only way to do it told by Impa was to use the power of the Force/sacred flames/pieces of triforce.

Because again the Sacred flames were pieces of triforce

2:00 to 2:46 and I dare you to say the Triforce of power is not the sacred flame

"that doesn't mean it's power is equivalent to a piece of the Triforce, and that the Master Sword is equivalent to the Full Triforce. "

Lmao no that video literally prove that notion wrong when again every flame is literally a piece of the Triforce and Impa confirms that the master sword was fused with each of their powers.

And once you completed the master sword the symbol of the Triforce is engraved in it signifying that the power of the Triforce is also embued in it



You literally see the Triforce shining on Link's hand and going through the sword giving its power and engraving the crest of the Full Triforce.

So yeah you were wrong.

One last thing let's not forget when Link weilds the MS it amps him with its powers
Click to expand...

You can not say that each flame is = Triforce piece and that Master Sword = The Triforce without the ability to grant wishes and then act like that doesn't affect every user of the Master Sword.

"Din's Flame (literally the Triforce of power) is what imbued the sword with the Power to Repel Evil."

"Every flames (pieces of the Triforce) was literally used to make the MS. The master sword is literally the Triforce in sword form without the wishing abilities but it has everything else."

You never said, "With Hylia's blessing, the True Master Sword/Golden Sword = The Triforce (Which nothing proves btw)".

You said, as shown with the quotes above, each Sacred Flame = Piece of the Triforce. And that the Master Sword created from the Sacred Flames is what is equivalent to the Full Triforce, as it is the Triforce in sword form with everything the Triforce barring the wish-granting abilities (This would be the regular Master Sword, not any amped version of it), this is the logic of your words. Through this logic, this would imply that all Link's that wield the Master Sword should scale to the Triforce because the Sacred Flames gave the Goddess Sword power equivalent to the Triforce when it transformed it into the Master Sword.

So I'm not strawmanning, I explaining to you the effects of the logic you are using.


And no, the "divine power left to us by the gods of old" isn't just the Triforce, the Sacred Flames were also left by the Golden Goddesses - and they are clearly a different power. You need to understand that just because two things possess the power of another, doesn't mean those things are equivalent in strength. As an example, Pernida Parnkgjas and Mimihagi are both arms of the Soul King in Bleach, but they aren't close to the same level of power. The same thing is possible for Zelda, just because the Sacred Flames and the Triforce have power that comes from the GGs, doesn't make them equal to one another.

And again, no, the Sacred Flames do NOT give you a piece of the Triforce! Did you play Skyward Sword? Every piece of the Triforce is kept in the Sky Keep in Skyloft, the Final Dungeon. The Triforce appearing on Link's hand with each piece glowing is symbolic of Link proving that he has obtained that virtue of each Goddess. You know, the equivalent three virtues that are needed in the individual to have so that making a wish on the Triforce doesn't split it into three pieces like what happened with Ganondorf in Ocarina of time. A wish that Link needs to make to kill the Imprisoned.

And no, "The Force" is not inherently the Triforce. It's just divine power - like the Light Force is.

The "immense sacred power of the Force" that turned the Master Sword into the Golden Sword is also proof of this, as we know for a fact, that it wasn't the Triforce, because that was owned and empowering Ganon at the time. The same thing for the Sacred Flames, they possess divine power, but there is NOTHING that says the power of the Sacred Flames (And the power that they give the Master Sword) is equivalent to any piece of the Triforce nor the whole thing combined - it just says it's very powerful, and that doesn't mean much of anything.

And you think that if the Sacred Flames were so powerful, equivalent to the Triforce, then Demise might have sought them out like he did the Triforce. But he didn't, he doesn't even ever mention them. So that, plus the very clear descriptions of how the Triforce is the ultimate power on Earth, implies that the power of the Triforce is completely and utterly beyond the power of the Sacred Flames or The Master Sword.


"One last thing let's not forget when Link weilds the MS it amps him with its powers"

Where and when was this EVER stated to be a thing?

I asked for proof of this in my last response, and haven't gotten any answers at all so far. Nothing proves, that I have seen, that Link gets a physical amp from the Master Sword. And from the description of the Master Sword, the Blade of Evil's Bane - with the ability to repel evil, it implies its power works by being a weakness to enemies instead of buffing Link's strength.

It would be like saying that Lex Luthor is buffed to Superman's level of strength because he is using Kryptonite - it's not how that works. The Master Sword is described in the same way, except it's the Kryptonite of all Evil, the Blade of Evil's Bane.

So I have no idea where did this belief that it buffs Link's strength comes from, and because of that, I once again ask.

Proof?



Anyway, I am not going to respond for the rest of the night, so don't expect me to do so.
 
I'm gonna work on a response but this response just smells of denial the mere fact that sacred flames the very essence of the GGs powers in individual forms does not equal triforce pieces (separated) or the Full Triforce (when combined) is ridiculous.





By your logic you are basically saying that sacred flames is not comparable to the individual pieces of triforce despite all 6 of them being created out of the very essence of the same beings who made them...the very same power source they are all connected to.

Plus the Lex luthor example is a bad case of whataboutism.
 
Warren_Valion said:
.

So I have no idea where did this belief that it buffs Link's strength comes from, and because of that, I once again ask.

Proof?
Click to expand...
Here's your proof

2:01https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kgjN0YyfeDQ


"Great! your sword is stronger! You can feel the sheer power flow through your body"

Well, well would you look at that...and this isn't the first time the master sword was to said to have amped Link.

To say otherwise is ridiculous.


And here 5 minutes of cutscene where every flames gives you a piece of the Triforce



The Sky keep dungeons was just there to see if you were truly worthy of it after sky keep dungeons are just trials to make sure you truly deserved it.
 
Lex's example is not a bad case of whataboutism. That's literally what the Master Sword is made for, to repel all Evil, the literal translation notes you send me said that exact same thing when addressing the whole text about the master sword resisting the triforce. It's literally a sword that's all evil's weakness. Scaling someone to a stronger character cause they have their weakness should not be an argument for the weaker character because it flies in the face on how their weakness works to begin with.

That text doesn't imply he literally gets stronger. That's about as legit as saying I grow stronger by feeling the weight of the shotgun blast when I fire the gun. I can feel the power, that doesn't mean I literally have it's power to begin with. In your own words: To say otherwise is ridiculous.

That's blatantly wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start. First off those fires at best were just Link proving he has Courage, Wisdom and Power, which is the prerequisites on using the triforce to begin with. Secondly that the fires that went inside Link's sword and the symbol on Link's hand was never the triforce because in a much LATER dungeon in that game, you literally had to get a key to find the hidden location of the Triforce. Which Fi, the talking robot with analyzing as part of their conversation not only says that it's in the temple you unlock much later after the silent realm, but you literally pick up every single piece of the triforce in that dungeon in the end. And literally the entire point of Skyward Sword when it came to collecting the Triforce was to kill Demise with it. If the flames that Link collected was always the triforce, why wouldn't Fi bring that very important fact to Link that he apparantly had the full thing to begin with? This argument adds way too much questions than answers when the game shows you on screen how Link got them in the first place. So stop with this nonsense that the flames that Link collects is the triforce cause the endgame disproves this claim immensely.
 
Link actually creates the True Master Sword before entering the temple, so the part about using the complete Triforce to create the Master Sword isn't quite true. And I'm not quite certain about True Master Sword scaling; and think it should just be comparable to Demise. But if you scroll up above; some other Zelda supporters actually found Japanese text translated by Shiro. The more recent Japanese texts say "Demon's Bane" not "Evil's bane". So the Lex Luthor analogy didn't make sense, and also doesn't explain Link taking hits from Complete Triforce Ganon; Golden Sword still has its own feats.
 
That's arguing semantics at this point and doesn't change the point considering Ganon is literally Demise's reincarnation, who's a demon. And one of his nicknames is the Demon King, Demon's Bane or evil's bane doesn't change the fact that the master sword was made to counter anything evil or demonic in nature.
 
To my understanding, being the blade of Demon's/Evil's Bane is just for putting down demons in the long run.

For example, OoT Link could bring ToP Ganon down with the Biggoron Sword, but he needed the Master Sword to finish the fight.

Also, ALTTP Link still survives attacks from Full Triforce Ganon. It's not like Link uses his sword to block attacks.
 
Warren_Valion said:
This is nonsense.
Click to expand...
If you mean the idea he doesn't scale is nonsense, I agree.
Warren_Valion said:
The Triforce is described as "omnipotent" in the setting of A Link to the Past. The fact that you proved Ganon was amped by the Full Triforce, makes his downfall illogical.
Click to expand...
Being described as Omnipotent ≠ Automatically make something an outlier. Super Buu has similar statements as having Omnipotence in Dragon Ball Z's setting, but the most augmented form he has got its ass throttled by Vegito. Does that suddenly make that instance an outlier too?

Omnipotence receives frequent usage in a fashion for describing great power within fiction. In that sense, the Triforce has great power because it's imbued with strength from the Golden Goddesses and is above most things in the verse, duh. However, I don't see how someone who also comes in with Goddess amps with a version of a weapon, consistently emphasized to be the strongest it has ever been (meaning random iterations can't scale to it remotely), is an outlier. What you're insinuating here makes absolutely no sense; it comes off as an awful attempt to make Link not scale here.
Warren_Valion said:
A fairy amping the Master Sword =/= Totally viable for Link to be as strong as Ganon with the Full Triforce

Why would an amp from a Fairy, even a Great Fairy, mean anything to the might of the Golden Goddesses? That doesn't make any sense.

Also, the sword's strength is exceptionally effective against Evil, and it is stated that the Triforce's energy becomes evil when used to make an Evil wish - so, at the very best, Link defeating Ganon is due to the Master Sword's mechanics of repelling evil, not Link's physical strength, and at worst, an outlier.

In either case, he wouldn't scale.
Click to expand...
I don't see what the problem is at all. Great Fairies have shown the ability to bestow Goddess magic and amps in the past; this is yet just another showing of it.

The Master Sword is more effective against evil beings, yes. However, it should still be roughly comparable even against non-evil beings. It still affects them drastically, and it has several allusions of its own power too. If the Master Sword was just a weapon that only affects evil beings heavily, it shouldn't have these types of statements or ones where being superior to its power is supposed to be impressive. That'd make no literal sense for narrative implications.

Can you even say why it would be an outlier in your worst-case scenario? You keep suggesting that Link cannot scale to it, but he has a weapon with those Goddess amps (which is further noted and supported with how it's the fiercest version of the Master Sword) that specifically would amplify him. If your entire reason is "it's a Triforceless Link" here, we've already been over how that logic doesn't devalue the feat. You can either prove what you're pushing right now or accept him scaling.

In the end, none of this would be able to explain why Link can tank attacks from Ganon either. Your entire idea here is just that it's an outlier. The moment that gets thrown remotely into question, your full argument surrounding this gets immediately debunked by extension. If your entire point here surrounding this is contingent on a questionable pre-conceived notion, I'm going to go out on a limb and say your arguments require far too much stretching for consideration.
Warren_Valion said:
Also, where is this idea that The Master Sword amps Link's strength comes from?

I don't ever remember this being stated at all. Just that Master Sword repels evil as it is the Blade of Evil's Bane. You would think if the sword made you physically stronger, it would be more noted within the verse.
Click to expand...
From years worth of statements?

The Master Sword has a decent amount of statements showing this. All aspects of your being are in tune with it to even use it. The same game we're talking about has a pretty clear statement to illustrate this too. The moment the Master Sword gets upgraded to the Tempered Sword, the game goes out of its way to note that it's more powerful, with Link feeling the difference as it courses throughout his body. That's such an explicit example that it shouldn't even require further discussion.

The main reason it receives less attention is that the most defining aspect of the Master Sword is its effectiveness against evil. You can think of it as similar to the Keyblade in that regard, where the Keyblade's most known for eradicating the darkness. However, it has clear statements and showings of physically amplifying people.
Warren_Valion said:
Also, no. The Master Sword needing 13 hearts in Breath of the Wild doesn't count, it is a game mechanic - otherwise, that would mean that every other Link with just three hearts is stronger than BotW Link, which is absurd.
Click to expand...
I have a legitimate question here. How is it a game mechanic? Also, I have yet another: can you name a single time a Link has walked up to the Master Sword with only three hearts and successfully wielded it no problem? Otherwise, you're banking your point on a non-existent example. I shouldn't have to explain how dumb that is.

Back to my original question, BotW Link receiving harm from the Master Sword is an accurate reflection of lore statements. The Master Sword has descriptions of rejecting or outright killing people if they're not worthy of it. You can even look to other Links for examples of this too. OoT Link got sealed for seven years through the Master Sword because he wasn't worthy to wield it at that point. WW Link is unable to use it until the sages restore it, and he's finally worthy. The Master Sword rejecting people with ill effects to those not fully realized as the hero is stated and shown many times. Hell, there is a statement regarding the thing you're saying is just a game mechanic. Right before Link attempts to pull out the Master Sword, the Great Deku Tree says this exact thing would happen if he hadn't been ready. Unless you want to write off the Great Deku Tree's statement (which you have no current reason to), then it's just showing a depiction of that. How you can say what's a reflection of one of the most consistently reiterated lore pieces across the franchise is beyond me.
 
I am not able to solve this argument for you, but everybody please calm down. We should all at least try to be friendly here.
 
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We will Ant don't worry and yeah I agree with Ploz on everything.

And let's not forget the fact every time a Loz upgrade and scaling is brought up people are quick to throw the words outlier left and right main examples being Vaati, wind fish, Demise/Hylia, LoZ cosmology, Triforce (universal statements and on screen feats) and the list could go on.

Because the base of your argument truly hangs on the fact that you think Being described as Omnipotent ≠ Automatically make something an outlier. It just makes no sense when you also throw in the fact that lore wise plus multiple statements from reliable source materials, characters plus on screen shows the master sword actually Amp Link's strength.

"Great! Your sword is stronger! You can feel the sheer power flow through your body!"

How is this statement even questioned in the first place? The narrator straight up tells you. The strength of the sword, the "sheer power" is "flowing" through your body... how is this not an Amp?

"Whether skyward bound, adrift in time, or steeped in the glowing embers of twilight...The sacred blade is forever bound to the soul of the Hero" — Zelda (Breath of the Wild)

The sword is literally linked to Link's soul they are both attuned to each other


"pulling the sword and getting damaged is game mechanics."

Smh.

Like Ploz said

Literally a full on lore explanation is given to you if you tried to pull it out plus past instance of that kind of thing happened on several occasions


This is just as bad as the whole" Did roshi actually destroy the moon? despite having on screen feats of it and character statements?"


so I'm gonna leave it at that.

So an insane version of the master sword by extension Link at its strongest should not scale to the Triforce because something is "omnipotent thus anything matching it is an outlier"?

Are we going to forget the fact that ALBW follows the same storyline and is a sequel to it (many years after obviously) and the game literally makes you upgrade the master sword to its strongest form.


Before making you go up against Yiga welding 2 pieces of the triforces and amped by the trident and Ganondorf's powers plus challenging Link for the authority of the ToC (its an actual thing triforce users can challenge each other for each others pieces)

A lot of these events happened just like ALTTP did...


You're gonna tell me that's an outlier too? That ALBW link shouldnt scale when the games literally says you have to do what ALTTP did with his sword before fighting the main baddies?

The mere fact that these events happened twice almost step by step completely goes against what an outlier stands for my dude.

Wait I mean 3 times.

let's not forget the hero of light going also through the entire same ordeal as Link with the master sword Lv 4 and completely curb stomped everyone and destroyed Ganon who couldn't match the hero of light power since he didn't have the Triforce.


hero of light was literally using Link's endgame maxed out sword hence the reason why you couldn't upgrade it.

It was already in its golden form. That's already 3 instances that shows how powerful, how important the Golden master form is.

So no stop it with "Link doesn't scale." or even "outlier".


And like DDM says below : silver arrows were super important into killing Ganon in ALTTP compared to other instances like ALBW and the hero of light who didn't need the silver arrows
 
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The word "Omnipotence" is not an outlier per say; the correct terminology is hyperbole. Hyperbole and Outlier are two widely different things and in technically the opposite based on vocabulary.

Also a side note, in A Link to the Past, he only wears Ganon down with the Golden Sword; he uses 4 Silver Arrows to finish him. Though, those Arrows are amped by the same power source as the Golden Sword via Cursed Fairy.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also a side note, in A Link to the Past, he only wears Ganon down with the Golden Sword; he uses 4 Silver Arrows to finish him. Though, those Arrows are amped by the same power source as the Golden Sword via Cursed Fairy.
Click to expand...
Yeah forgot about the arrows they were a must to defeat Ganon. Link needed a lot of prep before his final fight.
 
So have there been any conclusions here, and is somebody willing to summarise the arguments?
 
I personally think AshenCrow and Ploz are making the most sense; the Golden Sword is confirmed to be the strongest version of the Master Sword by far, so there really isn't any reason for Link defeating a complete Triforce Ganon to be an outlier. Although, I do agree with Warren's points about "Symbol of the Goddesses' power" not quite meaning all their power or 2-B based on the eventual proposals. And there are enough details for the Sacred Realm to be considered a universe apparently after a multitude of back to back statements.
  • Sacred Realm is large enough to contain an Earth to Sun distance, so High 4-C at bare minimum
  • Complete Triforce is clearly far above Wind Fish's feat, which is 4-A.
  • Hyrule is located in a dimension also large enough to have a starry sky, and appears to take place within the milky way galaxy, which the most logical assumption is that it's inside an actual universe not some random Tier 4 sized pocket reality
Stuff that seem legit, but still need scans are these.
  • There are sources describing Sacred Realm as a "Parallel world/dimension" to the world of Hyrule. Which the fact that Sacred Realm is already larger than planet sized it would it mirrors the body of space. Which in itself appears to be a Universe FRA.
  • If that scan is found, At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C looks legit for Complete Triforce Ganon and those who scale from him. If not, then At least 4-A.
  • But I'm waiting on others to retrieve that "Parallel world" statement.
And other than that, there is the scan AshenCrow brought up numerous times to support 2-B Golden Goddesses.
 
Gonna be a bit occupied for the time being regarding IRL and a couple other revisions on the wiki, but I’ll be back to give a response soon.
 
Medeus seems to make sense to me.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Stuff that seem legit, but still need scans are these.
  • There are sources describing Sacred Realm as a "Parallel world/dimension" to the world of Hyrule. Which the fact that Sacred Realm is already larger than planet sized it would it mirrors the body of space. Which in itself appears to be a Universe FRA.
  • If that scan is found, At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C looks legit for Complete Triforce Ganon and those who scale from him. If not, then At least 4-A.
  • But I'm waiting on others to retrieve that "Parallel world" statement.
Click to expand...
Oh, that is easy. Aside from Warren posting a couple of in-game statements in the beginning post, there are numerous other sources that make this explicitly clear.
 
Nah dude the Sacred Realm is a country sized pocket dimension just like Lorule

I agree with the Sacred Realm being universal in size and the Trforce being 3-A
 
Should we apply Medeus' conclusions?
 
Based on Ploz's scans, Dark World/Sacred Realm being a mirror dimension or "Parallel world" to Light World makes the Light World statements seem legit. In addition to the astronomies making it look like Hyrule is located within the milky way galaxy, I also recall it was described as being parallel to Termina which has its own universe sized statements iirc.
So I think Complete Triforce is universal tier from those details.
 
I'm still iffy about that being anything beyond Universal, but I think it's a good back up too.
 
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