Anos vs Exdeath

[Theglassman12]

where does it say order is concepts? I only see source being labeled as a concept.

The amount of magic power an individual has not only determines the amount of spells they are capable of casting, but also determines their overall power, like strength (attack potency), toughness (durability), and rarely even their speed.

This just says they can cast more spells with the higher magic power they have, not that the potency of their magic gets stronger.

@Antvasima I will, just need some thing clarified first.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Question of Interest
If each of these layered worlds are higher, superior and more complex than the other in a hierarchical structure
Why isn't Anos 1-B as yet?
I'm surprised no one has made a case for 1-B Anos as of yet

A Tier 1 argument can certainly be made, but supporters are waiting for some stuff to finish first

 

[Dereck03]

This is simple... The order of layer 1 does not compare with that of layer 2 and so on... Anos could easily destroy the source (which is the concept of the existence of the beings in the verse) but he could not destroy the concept of a deeper inhabitant, so he had to deepen his cm in order to destroy it.

Venzudonoa and Anos scales above the entire SS and it's layers and order

 

[Orioreeem]

@Theglassman12

Please close this thread again when you have finished this discussion. I am too busy to continuously patrol this thread.

Why is derailment of a thread allowed?

 

[Dereck03]

@Theglassman12

Order

"The various laws that make up the world, or the power of the gods that keep these laws normal. There are various orders such as “time”, “creation”, and “destruction”, and the same number of gods control them." ~ LN Keyword

"Gods are the race that controls the world. Each person has some kind of "order" as their authority and is extremely powerful." ~ LN Keyword

"The order of the world, the laws of the world, or providence, are embodied by the Guardian Deities." ~ WN Chapter 29

"It is the reason why this world is the world it is. Why is a bird a bird, why is a demon a demon? The heavens send down rain to moisten the earth and nurture the trees. If you draw a magic circle and put magic power into the magic formula, the light will come on. These are what we call the laws of nature, the laws of magic, the order that makes this world what it is."
[...]
"And the beings who maintain that order, the beings who embody that order, are the higher order divine race, the gods." ~ WN Chapter 120

秩序 - chitsujo :: Translations: order; regularity; system

Order is the laws and concepts that define and maintain the world. Gods maintain order by either controlling an order or protecting it from being disrupted. Completely erasing an order from the world would destroy the world as a by-product. Disrupting an order means that the order has only been removed from the natural system of the world, and not completely erased.

"All things without exception must eventually lead to destruction, however, because the Demon King stole the Order of Destruction, the world has been limited. Those that should have died did not die, those that should have brought about ruin did not and thus the natural law was disrupted. Other gods stepped in to compensate for it but the order was not completely restored." ~ WN Chapter 120

<Venuzdonoa> is a weapon created by the Order of Destruction. The order was not completely erased, but rather disrupted and turned into a weapon. After removing the order from the natural system of the world, the concept of destruction and all laws related to it across the entire world was affected.

A god's divine order, also referred to as an authority, is connected to that god's respective order, and seemingly utilises that order.

- Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha: Terminology & Cosmology Blog

 

[Dereck03]

Why is derailment of a thread allowed?

Orioreem please stop, it's better to settle this right here or people will continue bothering

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

where does it say order is concepts? I only see source being labeled as a concept.

Example

This just says they can cast more spells with the higher magic power they have, not that the potency of their magic gets stronger.

"According to the Order of the Silver Sea, magic power flows to the deep layer and the Order exerts its power to the depths. The magic power of the Shallow Layer World shifts by one, same for its Order."

"Magic power flows from shallow to deep. The 7th of Elenesia is a world located deeper than Balandias. Therefore, the order of Balandias works. This includes magical laws."
The Militia World is temporarily layer 0.
There is no world shallower than that, so only the order of that world could work.

You said that our students can use it, but Deep Mark <Drum> is a magic that uses fire dew as a catalyst, right? If you were to improve it to not use fire dew, wouldn't you need an enormous amount of magic power, just like Anos?"
"Kakaka, of course, it's not as effective as when you use fire dew. Deep Mark <Drum> needed fire dew because it was used for attribute conversion, in addition to its role of magic power amplification."

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dereck03 where in the quotes does it say it's a concept? It only refers to it as a law, not a concept.

@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless That doesn't really explain hax potency for magic power, again the blog mentions the greater one's magic power is, the more magic spells they can use compared to others so I don't really see the potency of hax being stronger here.

 

[Dereck03]

I'mma try to reply later... I have problems with my phone charger and it's seems that I have to buy a new one

Here we also have another little explanation about why its treated as such

https://vsbattles.com/threads/universal-laws-concept.124985/#post-4170852

 

[Bobsican]

Bump because I'm legitimately curious over how the 99 layer stuff is still usable.
For the record, simply being "stronger" hax-wise isn't inherently comparable to a resistance to begin with, so there should be a way to relate each "raise" in potency to a proper resistance or else it's just unquantificable for these purposes and thus unusable.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[speedster352]

Anos fra

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah I'm still waiting for the explanation on the 99+ layer hax because the cosmology blog just raises more questions than answers.

 

[kuramamyfav68]

Bump because I'm legitimately curious over how the 99 layer stuff is still usable.
For the record, simply being "stronger" hax-wise isn't inherently comparable to a resistance to begin with, so there should be a way to relate each "raise" in potency to a proper resistance or else it's just unquantificable for these purposes and thus unusable.

There's an uncountable difference in strength/everything between layers. How's that not enough for hax layers?

 

[Bobsican]

As much as we don't make up numbers for an stat amplification to make it "usable".
It has to be related to an actual resistance in some manner or else it's just unusable as of this CRT, I'm afraid.

 

[kuramamyfav68]

As much as we don't make up numbers for an stat amplification to make it "usable".

But order/concepts and laws in layer 1>>> (countlessly) order in layer 0. How's this not potency?

 

[Dereck03]

An easy example would be that Anos who could easily destroy the concepts in the shallow worlds could not destroy the concept of a deeper world and he himself had to deepen his conceptual manipulation in order to destroy this concept.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh no, that's not exactly the issue, sure, it's "higher" and all, but still unquantificably so for the purposes of comparing it to a resistance to begin with.
"Countless potency" above something is irrelevant if it's never shown to bypass a resistance to begin with, or in cases like this one a second resistance layer or so.

For example, character A has X hax, it has no effect on B as he resists it, character A gets an amp on X hax, but it's unquantificable as it's never shown to bypass a resistance of B's level (or above), so we'd go with B still resisting it.

However...

An easy example would be that Anos who could easily destroy the concepts in the shallow worlds could not destroy the concept of a deeper world and he himself had to deepen his conceptual manipulation in order to destroy this concept.

I guess the 99 layer stuff is legitimate then for these purposes.

 

[Dereck03]

I guess the 99 layer stuff is legitimate then for these purposes.

You can also check this thread, also remember that order = Law & Concepts

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

You can also check this thread, also remember that order = Law & Concepts

How'd you make an gif icon?

 

[Theglassman12]

An easy example would be that Anos who could easily destroy the concepts in the shallow worlds could not destroy the concept of a deeper world and he himself had to deepen his conceptual manipulation in order to destroy this concept.

Do you have any scans of this? Because the only scan I’ve seen is just destroying an object being tougher than anything else.

 

[Dereck03]

Do you have any scans of this? Because the only scan I’ve seen is just destroying an object being tougher than anything else.

Sure, I'll try to look it up, as I don't remember the exact chapter.

 

[Dereck03]

Tch, I did not find it, it is difficult since I do not remember the chapter and I was looking for possible threads in which I saw the scan, I found similar feats in chapters 587 and 623 but it is not explained as much as in the chapter I am looking for.

I will try to explain what happened, Anos was fighting against a deeper world inhabitant, then Anos used <Bebesd> to destroy the source (Concept) of the inhabitant, but this had no effect on him (<Bebesd> is one of the few ways in which you can destroy the concept of a person apart from Weapons like <Venuzdonoa> and other means that other characters possess). <Bebesd>was instantly negated, even though it could easily destroy a concept of a person in a shallow world but it became powerful enough to easily destroy the concept of the inhabitant after Deepen it. If you want to know exactly what Anos use for deepen <Bebesd> then you can read this specific section of the blog.
Also

Spoiler: This

The overall power, meaning attack potency, durability and speed, as well as the strength of laws and concepts from a deeper universe is at least innumerably greater than that of a shallower universe. The difference between layers is compared to the difference between dimensions, but it is not stated that deeper layers are higher dimensions.

My way of calling it would be "Higher Realities", it is a term that is still used because it is correct enough to compare with the differences that exist between the layers instead of "Higher Dimensions". It has even been used by Staffs and regular members so I think it's fine. And it is already common knowledge the difference between the layers, so I would recommend to read carefully the Null Blog if you still have some doubts, as well as some of the threads where we tried to upgrade Anos' Cm potency back then.

Most probably my explanation could be confusing and poor, but I don't remember very well the context of the chapter and I can't find the exact chapter. I'm also a bit tired of people getting a bit critical and start complaining "where this feat was accepted from or why this character has this ability" even when it was already accepted previously and every time there is an upgrade, we keep highlighting such statment, just because they dont wanna see their favorite character losing to Anos.
So I will not keep giving explanations every time they come with the same thing because it has already happened to me more than once and I'm bored with those repetitive questions, so I'm just going to unwacth this thread and ask for it to be closed, because the purpose of this thread was a battle in which Anos stomp and not an explanation room, if any of you want to complain about something about Anos you can make a Q&A thread or ask in the verse thread.

 

[Antvasima]

I was asked to close this thread. Is that acceptable?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/all-purpose-request-thread-new-forum.107534/post-4626810

 

[Dereck03]

I was asked to close this thread. Is that acceptable?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/all-purpose-request-thread-new-forum.107534/post-4626810

The purpose of this thread was a VS Thread between Anos and Exdeath in which Anos stomp, but the only reason this stays open is because people started complaining about Anos.

if any of you want to complain about something about Anos you can make a Q&A thread or ask in the verse thread.

So i think is okay to close the thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so then.

 

[Theglassman12]

I still have several questions regarding the matchup and how the potency works as a whole, but I'm gonna be a bit occupied due to exams, so I'm going to reopen this to finish the discussion when I'm free.

 

[Theglassman12]

Alright back, anyways the cosmology blog you linked again doesn't really explain that deeper worlds have stronger concepts than the shallower ones. Hell the scans imply the opposite

There is no world shallower than that, so only the order of that world could work.
However, the deeper the world goes, the more the order and magical laws of another world get mixed in.
It must be very chaotic at the bottom.
"Can the magic of a deeper world not be used in a shallower world?"

If this was seriously a higher scaled hax ability then the deeper worlds should affect the shallower ones by this logic, but it doesn't, it just mentions that only the magics on the specific worlds only work on their respective worlds unless the reverse formula's done. Also doesn't help that with Qliphoth's translation in the blog mentioning it being more AP focused than hax focused (though that can also just be another "it only works on that world" schtick) and the fact having stronger magic means your stats are better and your magic is more varied it doesn't really back up the layered hax argument.

Anyways even if we were to accept this being layered hax on 99+ levels, how exactly does Exdeath get stomped here when he has high godly regen which means he can come back from conceptual destruction? He resurrects right after he gets "killed" and even assuming anos just tries to spam his abilities and ignore some of exdeath's passive abilities with other hax that can work on Anos that would lead to an incapacitation, this seems like an inconclusive match as Anos wouldn't be able to kill Exdeath and just be stuck in limbo forever.

Also side note stop with the whole "people only question Anos' abilities because they don't want to see their favorite characters lose" argument from belief bullshit. By this logic I can flip the script on you and claim you're only closing this thread without having to let others speak because you don't want Anos to lose. Not only that but YOU'RE the one who made this thread so why are you complaining about people asking how his abilities work in a versus thread you made in the first place? Expect people who aren't familiar with how the character's abilities function to ask questions.

 

[theultimate5105]

Anyways even if we were to accept this being layered hax on 99+ levels, how exactly does Exdeath get stomped here when he has high godly regen which means he can come back from conceptual destruction? He resurrects right after he gets "killed" and even assuming anos just tries to spam his abilities and ignore some of exdeath's passive abilities with other hax that can work on Anos that would lead to an incapacitation, this seems like an inconclusive match as Anos wouldn't be able to kill Exdeath and just be stuck in limbo forever.

ignoring the previous since I agree with you on that front
Anos has High godly negation

 

[Theglassman12]

Exdeath resists high godly negation dude, it's literally the first thing he resists on his page.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, given what Glassman quoted, it seems these are just power/cosmological semantics that prevent powers from just working in a manner that wouldn't scale for quantificable potency, rather than layers of power and whatever.

 

[imZer0Null]

Alright back, anyways the cosmology blog you linked again doesn't really explain that deeper worlds have stronger concepts than the shallower ones. Hell the scans imply the opposite.

This is completely incorrect. I seriously doubt you actually read the cosmology blog if you think this.

Order
The various laws that make up the world, or the power of the gods that keep these laws normal. There are various orders such as “time”, “creation”, and “destruction”, and the same number of gods control them.

"It is the reason why this world is the world it is. Why is a bird a bird, why is a demon a demon? The heavens send down rain to moisten the earth and nurture the trees. If you draw a magic circle and put magic power into the magic formula, the light will come on. These are what we call the laws of nature, the laws of magic, the order that makes this world what it is."

Order is the laws and concepts that define and maintain the world. You're nit-picking that the word "concept" is never mentioned, but it's directly stated that order is the reason birds are birds and demons are demons for example, which is how concepts (universals) work. Any knowledgeable verse member will tell you that order = laws and concepts, because that's how it's portrayed in the story.

Silver Water Holy Sea
An area that encompasses many "worlds", that extends outside of these worlds. Each world exists in a hierarchy, and the deeper the world, the stronger its order, and the more powerful its inhabitants appropriately are.

"The World's depth is the strength of the World's Order. It refers to the great influence the Small Worlds have on the Silver Sea. Magic power flows from the Shallow Layer to the Deep Layer, and the Order exerts its power from Shallow to Deep."
The spherical blackboard must have been a magical tool as it was transparent and what appeared inside were silver bubbles.
It seemingly imitated five Shallow Layer Worlds and one Deep Layer World.
"Let's say, for example, that the Shallow Layer Worlds have a magic power of 10 and the weight of their Order is 10. The same goes for the Deep Layer World."
'Shallow Layer World: Magic Power: 10. Weight: 10'
'Deep Layer World: Magic Power: 10. Weight: 10' was added.
"According to the Order of the Silver Sea, magic power flows to the deep layer and the Order exerts its power to the depths. The magic power of the Shallow Layer World shifts by one, same for its Order."
One magic power and weight are subtracted.
It was rewritten as 'Shallow Layer World: Magic Power 9. Weight 9'.
"The magic power and Order are given to the Deep Layer World, turning it into power."
From each of the five Shallow Layer Worlds, one magic power and weight are transferred for a total of five magic power and weight, which are added to the ones the Deep Layer World originally had.
There, the Deep Layer World becomes 'Magic Power 15, Weight 15'.
"It's actually not that simple, but this is the basic principle of the Silver Sea's Order. A small world that possesses numerous magic power and a strong functioning Order is heavy and sinks into the depths. Thus, it is considered deep."

"Because it's inefficient to measure all of the small world's order and the amount of magic power it possesses, we'll use the amount of fire dew it possesses to determine the hierarchy. The more fire dew a small world has, the deeper it is located."
Location is not a matter of place, but of the strength of order in that world.

"In this small world, which exists deeper than your small world, the power of everything is in another dimension. Strength, speed, toughness, magic power, everything. Even the resistance of a grain of air would be a weight to you. If you unleash your shallow, world-destroying magic, you will not be able to destroy a single ship here."

"Hmm. It seems that the magic power is flowing in from somewhere?"
"It's from Balandias."
Ottlulu, who was standing behind me, said.
"Magic power flows from shallow to deep. The 7th of Elenesia is a world located deeper than Balandias. Therefore, the order of Balandias works. This includes magical laws."
The Militia World is temporarily layer 0.
There is no world shallower than that, so only the order of that world could work.
However, the deeper the world goes, the more the order and magical laws of another world get mixed in.
It must be very chaotic at the bottom.
"Can the magic of a deeper world not be used in a shallower world?"
[...]
Every small world has certain common magical laws, and magic that use them can be used without problems.
"Deep magic that can only be used with the order of a deep world cannot be used in a shallower world. However, this is also not absolute. There exists a reverse formula."
"Is the magical laws of the deep world flowing to the shallower world in the opposite direction?"
"Yes. If a deep magic incorporates a reverse formula, it can be used in a shallower world."
[...]
"You inhabitants of the bubble world have only one chance of defeating us, the twenty-first layer world of Tiger Castle Academy, and that is to acquire a twenty-second or beyond layer of deep magic and use the reverse formula."

"You said that our students can use it, but Deep Mark <Drum> is a magic that uses fire dew as a catalyst, right? If you were to improve it to not use fire dew, wouldn't you need an enormous amount of magic power, just like Anos?"
"Kakaka, of course, it's not as effective as when you use fire dew. Deep Mark <Drum> needed fire dew because it was used for attribute conversion, in addition to its role of magic power amplification."
[...]
"A formula that views the depth of magic as an ocean and dives magic into it. Therefore, shallow magic becomes deeper."
[...]
What about Deep Attack <Zels>?"
"Only the Dark Lord was able to master that one. It is similar to diving magic, but instead of magic, it causes strikes and sword attacks to reach deeper. Its usage is similar to Armament Strengthening <Adesin>, but he said it would consume a large amount of magic power. Would you like to hear the opinions of the Demon King's right hand man and the hero?"

It is literally basic verse knowledge that the deeper a world goes, the stronger it becomes. It is stated multiple times that the strength of order (laws and concepts) increases the deeper a world goes. The overall power of a world and its inhabitants also increases the deeper a world goes, and we are directly told that shallow world-destroying magic cannot destroy an ordinary object in a deeper world. It is again directly stated that the "power of everything" is greater in a deeper world, and "everything" is later explained to mean "Strength, speed, toughness, magic power, everything.", i.e. it literally means everything.
It is also explained that magic power and order flow from shallow to deep, and by applying just a little bit of basic maths to the given explanation, we can come to the conclusion that the overall power as well as the strength of laws and concepts in deeper worlds are at least innumerably greater than that of shallower worlds above it. Sure, innumerable is just an unquantifiable amount, but we are shown plenty examples in the story where this unquantifiable difference essentially means that deeper world inhabitants can withstand and resist shallower world attacks and magic.
Balzarondo's explanation is evidence that deeper world inhabitants can withstand shallower world attacks, and the Anos vs Yzak fight is evidence that deeper world inhabitants can resist shallower world magic. Anos had to deepen Bebesd, which is a purely conceptual attack (i.e. not related to AP in any way), because it couldn't destroy Yzak's source (concept) and was useless against Yzak's power, which is conceptual in nature because it's related to Yzak's order, before it was deepened. Bebesd could easily destroy shallower world inhabitants' source and conceptual powers, but couldn't do the same in a deeper world until it was deepened.
We are even told that the only way shallower world inhabitants can defeat deeper world inhabitants is for them to acquire magic from a world one or more layers deeper than the relevant deeper world, so it is made clear that any shallower world magic is useless against deeper world inhabitants, and that magic from only one layer deeper than the relevant deeper world can make shallower world inhabitants stand a chance against deeper world inhabitants.

If this was seriously a higher scaled hax ability then the deeper worlds should affect the shallower ones by this logic, but it doesn't, it just mentions that only the magics on the specific worlds only work on their respective worlds unless the reverse formula's done. Also doesn't help that with Qliphoth's translation in the blog mentioning it being more AP focused than hax focused (though that can also just be another "it only works on that world" schtick) and the fact having stronger magic means your stats are better and your magic is more varied it doesn't really back up the layered hax argument.

This is also completely misinterpreting and nit-picking a statement.

Deeper world magic can very easily affect shallower worlds, and Anos' Egil Grone Angdroa is a very good example of this, but they cannot always function when used inside shallower worlds because some, not all, deeper world magic requires more "complex" (mixed) order and magic laws to function, therefore they can definitely still affect a shallower world, but if the deeper world magic requires deeper world order, then it cannot function when used inside a shallower world that lacks the deeper world order. This is in no way some kind of counter argument to the layered hax argument.

This just says they can cast more spells with the higher magic power they have, not that the potency of their magic gets stronger.

You are once again nit-picking an explanation.

The amount of magic power an individual has not only determines the amount of spells they are capable of casting, but also determines their overall power, like strength (attack potency), toughness (durability), and rarely even their speed.

Any knowledgeable verse member will tell you that if character A and character B are fighting, and A wants to overpower B, either physically or magically (hax), that A would just infuse more magic power into either their body or magic.

In any case, not all of Anos powers are supposed to be layered, especially not 99 layers. To keep things simple, the only things that should be considered to have 99 layers are probably his magic eyes (and Venuzdonoa ofc), and even then probably only the existence erasure, power nullification, logic manip, law manip, and concept manip would be layered.

 

[Theglassman12]

@imZer0Null that statements on bird being a bird with laws being emphasized sounds more like the laws dictate that a certain being functions, especially in a verse where the "Source" is what's referred to as a concept, and not Order.

Instead of linking the entire chapter can you give me the exact text of this deeper stuff needing to be stronger being a necessity?

You missed the point of my explanation regarding magic, being physically stronger has nothing to do with hax potency. You need proof that the potency of the hax actually grows stronger, which going off what little you have on the blog it doesn't explain much. And again, I've still yet to see how Exdeath gets stomped as he still comes back and has abilities that works on Anos.

 

[imZer0Null]

that statements on bird being a bird with laws being emphasized sounds more like the laws dictate that a certain being functions, especially in a verse where the "Source" is what's referred to as a concept, and not Order.

That just doesn't make any sense.

To begin with, magic power is created from the magical source in our bodies. To put it simply, it's the soul, the spirit, but the source exists even deeper in the abyss, and it's what makes us who we are.

"It is the reason why this world is the world it is. Why is a bird a bird, why is a demon a demon? The heavens send down rain to moisten the earth and nurture the trees. If you draw a magic circle and put magic power into the magic formula, the light will come on. These are what we call the laws of nature, the laws of magic, the order that makes this world what it is."

Instead of linking the entire chapter can you give me the exact text of this deeper stuff needing to be stronger being a necessity?

Idk what you're even asking here..?
I only linked the entire chapter for the Anos vs Yzak fight. I honestly can't be bothered to provide the exact translated text rn, especially if you're just gonna misinterpret the feat again. You can use mtl to translate the chapter to see for yourself that Anos had to deepen Bebesd to compete with Yzak if you seriously don't believe what I said.
Also, don't suddenly start nit-picking scans again. I provided a bunch of scans, and most of them have the relevant evidence.

You missed the point of my explanation regarding magic, being physically stronger has nothing to do with hax potency.

And you just missed my entire explanation in my earlier post.

You need proof that the potency of the hax actually grows stronger, which going off what little you have on the blog it doesn't explain much.

I provided evidence that deeper magic is stronger than shallower magic in my earlier post. If you wanna ignore that and nit-pick the cosmology blog, that's a you problem.

And again, I've still yet to see how Exdeath gets stomped as he still comes back and has abilities that works on Anos.

Idc about the vs match.
I posted something because you keep misinterpreting and nit-picking things.

 

[Delta333]

@Theglassman12 I suggest making a downgrade thread as currently you are disagreeing for things that have been accepted

 

[Theglassman12]

One scan literally talks about the source being who they are, the order just explains how the world functions, I don't see how you can mix the two when they have different meanings in this series going off the scans you've given.

Just give me the text where it's stated he had to deepen the source for it to work because he was using a lower end source instead of linking the entire chapter, how hard is that to do? If you can give me the exact text that explains this then I'll stop arguing against the 99+ layers stuff.

Again irrelevant to the original point to my argument there because I'm not tackling the AP part of the magic explanation, I'm tackling the hax potency as I've seen claims that the magic getting stronger means the hax gets stronger with little explanations.

 

[imZer0Null]

One scan literally talks about the source being who they are, the order just explains how the world functions, I don't see how you can mix the two when they have different meanings in this series going off the scans you've given.

It's like you didn't even read the scans...
The source is described as the thing that "makes us who we are".
Order is described as "the order that makes this world what it is".
You also don't seem to know that sources are type 2 concepts while order is currently accepted as type 1 concepts (+ laws).

Just give me the text where it's stated he had to deepen the source for it to work because he was using a lower end source...

What are you even talking about?
I never said he "had to deepen the source for it to work"... I said he had to deepen the magic Bebesd, which is used for conceptual attacks, for it to work on Yzak.

...instead of linking the entire chapter, how hard is that to do?

And how hard is it to just mtl the entire chapter..?

Again irrelevant to the original point to my argument there because I'm not tackling the AP part of the magic explanation, I'm tackling the hax potency as I've seen claims that the magic getting stronger means the hax gets stronger with little explanations.

Wtf is "the original point" to your argument even?
I've already provided evidence that deeper magic>shallower magic, that deeper world inhabitants can normally resist shallower world magic, and that MGnF characters can use deepening magic to increase the potency of their magic and the strength of their attacks, so I legitimately don't know what you're arguing anymore.
Whether or not you agree that MGnF characters' overall power is determined by their amount of magic power is also kinda irrelevant, because they can still deepen their magic regardless.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah the source doesn't sound like a type 2 concept at all, going through the cosmology blog where it's describing the source that sounds more like a type 3 concept than a type 2 given it's governing something very specific rather than all of reality. Same with Order being type 1 as there's no statements of it predating the reality it governs.

Machine translation? You mean one of the more unreliable source of methods for translating text than having someone who's knowledgeable about the language? I'd rather have an actual expert in the language give the text than rely on a machine translator that would mistranslate certain texts.

My original point is that magic has only shown to increase the variety of their spells and just have stat increase, not HAX increase, nothing in the 3 line long paragraph you have in the blog mentions magic hax being more potent than before the stronger it gets, just that the more magic power one gets, the more spells they can use.

 

[imZer0Null]

All right. I guess this debate is finished then, since you're just repeating circular arguments and ignoring and/or misinterpreting other arguments and evidence.