Anos Volidgoad Resistance Analysis and Changes [Maou Gakuin]

[ImmortalDread]

I think due a sudden stress from my college (end of days is always like this), I will nolonger perform.

I will create later the counter-thread, addressing it all.

 

[BadSystems]

Agree with some of the Anti-Magic points and removal of resistance to fire manip, ice manip, and transmutation.

The main part of Anti-Magic I disagree with is that it can only really function as power nullification. It can also raise someone’s magic resist when cast on the body, shown earlier in the thread.

I’m neutral on the electricity manipulation part because I’m not sure what the relationship between Anos and Avos is. Some dude in the thread said that the electricity man was drawing power from Avos rather than Anos.

 

[BadSystems]

This scan is hilarious btw, this shit ain't magic resistance when it literally says it weakens his resistance

Wait, missed this. Here Anos is saying his descendant’s natural magic resistance has grown weaker as a result of him relying on Anti-Magic to resist things.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I’m neutral on the electricity manipulation part because I’m not sure what the relationship between Anos and Avos is. Some dude in the thread said that the electricity man was drawing power from Avos rather than Anos.

To my understanding, Zepes merely believed he was drawing power from Avos, when in reality he was drawing it from Anos the whole time. Haven't seen any scans proving otherwise.

The main part of Anti-Magic I disagree with is that it can only really function as power nullification. It can also raise someone’s magic resist when cast on the body, shown earlier in the thread.

Wait, missed this. Here Anos is saying his descendant’s natural magic resistance has grown weaker as a result of him relying on Anti-Magic to resist things.

The thing is, I don't recall magic resistance having a power level component like anti-magic does, so even if there's still an element of 'resistance' in anti-magic (which is kinda subjective at this point), it'd still be mechanically different enough from magic resistance to be indexed separately. Also, the latter sentence can probably be included as a weakness for anti-magic users if that's the interpretation we go with.

 

[Phoenks]

Notably, this would mean Venuzdonoa loses its resistance to power null, as it overcoming “layers upon layers of anti-magic” hardly means anything when it’s a sword, which is a physical attack.

Isn't this still resistance because Ven is a magical sword?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Isn't this still resistance because Ven is a magical sword?

That is true, but I think the power level argument would still work. Venuzdonoa is currently overwhelmingly stronger than anyone in the verse; No anti-magic can stop it because nobody is strong enough to oppose it, not because it has a resistance to power null.

 

[Phoenks]

That is true, but I think the power level argument would still work. Venuzdonoa is currently overwhelmingly stronger than anyone in the verse; No anti-magic can stop it because nobody is strong enough to oppose it, not because it has a resistance to power null.

I would say this is a pretty weak reason to take it's resistance away.

Power nullification is hax ability that doesn't care for the strength of an entity in that way. So just because Ven is stronger doesn't mean it doesn't also have a resistance to that.

And it's necessary to still list these resistances because otherwise on vsbw matches it would be treated as a sword capable of being affected by ANY power nullification. Even if said power nullification only affected 8-Bs or something. This obviously should be the case as Ven has clear resistances seen here, even if that power null might now be that "strong."

That's simply how the ability works on the site.

So, I'll have to disagree with this point.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I would say this is a pretty weak reason to take it's resistance away.

Power nullification is hax ability that doesn't care for the strength of an entity in that way. So just because Ven is stronger doesn't mean it doesn't also have a resistance to that.

And it's necessary to still list these resistances because otherwise on vsbw matches it would be treated as a sword capable of being affected by ANY power nullification. Even if said power nullification only affected 8-Bs or something. This obviously should be the case as Ven has clear resistances seen here, even if that power null might now be that "strong."

That's simply how the ability works on the site.

So, I'll have to disagree with this point.

No I mean

Anti-magic just straight up doesn't work against anything with higher AP than the user. That's a flaw of anti-magic itself, so Venuzdonoa taking advantage of that flaw isn't a special ability of some kinda. It's just verse mechanics at play.

 

[Phoenks]

No I mean

Anti-magic just straight up doesn't work against anything with higher AP than the user. That's a flaw of anti-magic itself, so Venuzdonoa taking advantage of that flaw isn't a special ability of some kinda. It's just verse mechanics at play.

In this case, I suppose I should reply to the bulk of that argument and give my take on it.

So anti-magic is pretty clearly power null, which means it should be removed from the resistance tabber and moved to Anos’ power null justifications. However, this is just the start of the issues. Anti-magic barriers and armor are reliant on the discrepancy in power level between caster and defender; Against origin magic like Jirasd, a typical anti-magic barrier won’t hold because of the vast increase in power. Ivis clearly states that Anos’ magic is far more powerful than his, which allows his anti-magic barriers to be torn apart (this also showcases another flaw of anti-magic: it’s possible to bypass barriers entirely if you just cast a spell inside of it lol). Finally, while there are likely other examples, volume 2 makes explicit mention of how anti-magic is reliant on the power difference between the magic and anti-magic; Any anti-magic can be overcome if you just… make your magic stronger. So while anti-magic is power null, it has a very clearly defined limitation in regards to its mechanics.

TL;DR: Anti-magic is a limited form of power null reliant on one’s power level. It only works on magic, and physical blows can bypass it without issue. This also means Venuzdonoa loses resistance to power nullification.

This seems reminiscent of how hax abilities are treated in Dragon Ball. Where simply being more powerful allows one to overcome things like time manipulation or existence erasure because they're used by weaker people. These are still listed as resistances on the wiki, however.

I think those who overpower Anti-Magic in MG should be treated the same way in this case, personally. Since, there isn't really a way to quantify the tier of a power nullification ability in most cases. It isn't ever tiered at all beyond the dimensionality of the capability. Even though a character might have only nullified something like an 8-C or even 9-C attack in their series, on this wiki, it's just "baseline power-nullification," which is treated as equivalent to all other "baseline power-nullification." Meaning that it pretty much works on anything within the same dimensionality without a baseline resistance.

These people in MG who bypass these Anti-Magic barriers are still treated as being beyond those baseline nullification abilities at the least (I'm not really sure where the scaling is in terms of the layers and whatnot), so I still think they should qualify, even if its through the whole power-level mechanics in their verse.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

In this case, I suppose I should reply to the bulk of that argument and give my take on it.



This seems reminiscent of how hax abilities are treated in Dragon Ball. Where simply being more powerful allows one to overcome things like time manipulation or existence erasure because they're used by weaker people. These are still listed as resistances on the wiki, however.

I think those who overpower Anti-Magic in MG should be treated the same way in this case, personally. Since, there isn't really a way to quantify the tier of a power nullification ability in most cases. It isn't ever tiered at all beyond the dimensionality of the capability. Even though a character might have only nullified something like an 8-C or even 9-C attack in their series, on this wiki, it's just "baseline power-nullification," which is treated as equivalent to all other "baseline power-nullification." Meaning that it pretty much works on anything within the same dimensionality without a baseline resistance.

These people in MG who bypass these Anti-Magic barriers are still treated as being beyond those baseline nullification abilities at the least (I'm not really sure where the scaling is in terms of the layers and whatnot), so I still think they should qualify, even if its through the whole power-level mechanics in their verse.

I personally disagree with this premise, and think that resistances based on AP are not equivalent to regular resistances at all. Even if it is technically a resistance via power levels, shouldn't it be limited since anybody with enough brute force can just ignore it despite not having layered hax? This isn't even an MGK thing, I think DB shouldn't have a lot of resistances for this reason either. However, this is a pretty subjective take and there isn't a right or wrong answer so I'll just take note of your opinion.

 

[BadSystems]

To my understanding, Zepes merely believed he was drawing power from Avos, when in reality he was drawing it from Anos the whole time. Haven't seen any scans proving otherwise..

Alright, I agree on removing resistance to electricity manipulation then.

The thing is, I don't recall magic resistance having a power level component like anti-magic does, so even if there's still an element of 'resistance' in anti-magic (which is kinda subjective at this point), it'd still be mechanically different enough from magic resistance to be indexed separately. Also, the latter sentence can probably be included as a weakness for anti-magic users if that's the interpretation we go with

I kind of agree with Phoenks’ point on this. The resistances to magic from Anti-Magic should be kept, but the weakness should be clarified.

Limited Resistance to Magic, maybe? Is that even done on site? I’m not sure if we treat the brute-forcing mechanic as something that can be equalized between verses, if it’s actually reliant on some power level system.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[ShakeResounding]

By no means am I an MGK expert, but the premise of the OP seems to hold up in lieu of ongoing arguments.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Phoenks]

You should call staffs

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

I try not to contact staff too often.

 

[CHIDOSKI]

Doing one of a few threads I promised I’d do a long ass time ago. Basically, Anos has some unsourced resistances on his profile. I’d like to take the opportunity to look at these individually, as well as the nature of anti-magic in MGK and how it works.

Electricity Manipulation

This is from Anos shrugging off the effects of <Jirasd> in volume 1. The feat itself is quite clear, but there is more at play than just tanking a lightning bolt. Jirasd is what’s known as origin magic, or magic that has been greatly amplified due to being drawn from a specific origin. Such magic has a caveat though; It works on everyone except the origin of the magic in question. Wouldn’t you know it, Anos is the one who invented Jirasd, so he naturally isn’t affected by it - not due to his own innate resistance, but due to a weakness of origin magic in general.

Ice Manipulation and Transmutation

This stems from the claim that anti-magic can cancel the effects of Misha’s Eyes of Creation. For reference, Misha uses this ability exactly once, in volume 4 part 1. The one instance of her using this ability shows her transmuting someone into ice; Nobody ever resists it, and she doesn’t even use it against anyone else to begin with. I am legitimately baffled as to where this came from. As seen below, anti-magic would no longer be considered a form of resistance even if this feat was legit.

Fire Manipulation

As mentioned before, anti-magic is not a valid means of granting resistance to anything. However, despite looking through every volume for a source on magic power extinguishing flames, I couldn’t find anything, so I’m fairly certain this needs to go.

Body Puppetry

This one’s pretty legit; It’s repeatedly confirmed that the ability to resist this is reliant on, well, resistance. So just add these scans and we’ll be good to go.

Anti-Magic

Anti-magic is a topic frequently brought up in Maou Gakuin, but Anos’ page does a poor job of explaining what exactly it is. As the name implies, it acts as protection from magic, but it is decidedly not a resistance - as shown here, it’s a very distinct entity from magic resistance, and overreliance on it actually weakens one’s magic resistance. It is directly shown to interfere with or outright cancel magic, so it is moreso power nullification than “resistance” to any individual power.

Given its nature as power null, it has an obvious weakness: No means of countering physical attacks. Anos states this pretty clearly when he encounters a castle with anti-magic barriers in place and responds by casually yeeting it. This is again mentioned when Anos bypasses a door protected by anti-magic by pushing it open, and yet again when a casual sword swing from Ivis tears apart Anos’ anti-magic. Finally, Anos’ anti-magic is easily overcome by Lay’s sword attacks. From this, it’s quite clear that anti-magic is anti-magic alone; Regardless of what form it takes, enough raw muscle can bypass it. Notably, this would mean Venuzdonoa loses its resistance to power null, as it overcoming “layers upon layers of anti-magic” hardly means anything when it’s a sword, which is a physical attack.

So anti-magic is pretty clearly power null, which means it should be removed from the resistance tabber and moved to Anos’ power null justifications. However, this is just the start of the issues. Anti-magic barriers and armor are reliant on the discrepancy in power level between caster and defender; Against origin magic like Jirasd, a typical anti-magic barrier won’t hold because of the vast increase in power. Ivis clearly states that Anos’ magic is far more powerful than his, which allows his anti-magic barriers to be torn apart (this also showcases another flaw of anti-magic: it’s possible to bypass barriers entirely if you just cast a spell inside of it lol). Finally, while there are likely other examples, volume 2 makes explicit mention of how anti-magic is reliant on the power difference between the magic and anti-magic; Any anti-magic can be overcome if you just… make your magic stronger. So while anti-magic is power null, it has a very clearly defined limitation in regards to its mechanics.

TL;DR: Anti-magic is a limited form of power null reliant on one’s power level. It only works on magic, and physical blows can bypass it without issue. This also means Venuzdonoa loses resistance to power nullification.

Why won't Anos gain resistance to electric manipulation, season 2 episode 5 misha ask Anos why is the 7 demon emperor still recognize avos as the demon king instead of him, and Anos replied because her authority is higher than him, so for me if avos is stronger than Anos the electric will hurt him, besides Anos didn't know about avos when he reincarnate

 

[Phoenks]

Bump

I try not to contact staff too often.

Don't you need staff to get any of this applies anyway?

And I doubt most of them are going to check out a Maou thread on their own accord, haha.

Might as well go bother some.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Why won't Anos gain resistance to electric manipulation, season 2 episode 5 misha ask Anos why is the 7 demon emperor still recognize avos as the demon king instead of him, and Anos replied because her authority is higher than him, so for me if avos is stronger than Anos the electric will hurt him, besides Anos didn't know about avos when he reincarnate

That has nothing to do with what's been said.

Don't you need staff to get any of this applies anyway?

And I doubt most of them are going to check out a Maou thread on their own accord, haha.

Might as well go bother some.

fiiiiiine

 

[Duedate8898]

Going over the full thread, I think the OP is fine.

 

[Deagonx]

Electricity Manipulation

This is from Anos shrugging off the effects of <Jirasd> in volume 1. The feat itself is quite clear, but there is more at play than just tanking a lightning bolt. Jirasd is what’s known as origin magic, or magic that has been greatly amplified due to being drawn from a specific origin. Such magic has a caveat though; It works on everyone except the origin of the magic in question. Wouldn’t you know it, Anos is the one who invented Jirasd, so he naturally isn’t affected by it - not due to his own innate resistance, but due to a weakness of origin magic in general.

In absence of a substitute feat, I agree. However big picture I wonder to what extent we should avoid listing specific resistance in situations where the both the ability and the resistance are subsets of a universal magic system, in which any ability can be resisted with sufficient magic power, and magic power can be fashioned in an extreme variety of ways. But I suppose that's a bit off topic.

This stems from the claim that anti-magic can cancel the effects of Misha’s Eyes of Creation. For reference, Misha uses this ability exactly once, in volume 4 part 1. The one instance of her using this ability shows her transmuting someone into ice; Nobody ever resists it, and she doesn’t even use it against anyone else to begin with. I am legitimately baffled as to where this came from. As seen below, anti-magic would no longer be considered a form of resistance even if this feat was legit.

Makes sense.

Fire Manipulation

As mentioned before, anti-magic is not a valid means of granting resistance to anything. However, despite looking through every volume for a source on magic power extinguishing flames, I couldn’t find anything, so I’m fairly certain this needs to go.

Body Puppetry

This one’s pretty legit; It’s repeatedly confirmed that the ability to resist this is reliant on, well, resistance. So just add these scans and we’ll be good to go.

Looks good.

Anti-Magic

Anti-magic is a topic frequently brought up in Maou Gakuin, but Anos’ page does a poor job of explaining what exactly it is. As the name implies, it acts as protection from magic, but it is decidedly not a resistance - as shown here, it’s a very distinct entity from magic resistance, and overreliance on it actually weakens one’s magic resistance. It is directly shown to interfere with or outright cancel magic, so it is moreso power nullification than “resistance” to any individual power.

Given its nature as power null, it has an obvious weakness: No means of countering physical attacks. Anos states this pretty clearly when he encounters a castle with anti-magic barriers in place and responds by casually yeeting it. This is again mentioned when Anos bypasses a door protected by anti-magic by pushing it open, and yet again when a casual sword swing from Ivis tears apart Anos’ anti-magic. Finally, Anos’ anti-magic is easily overcome by Lay’s sword attacks. From this, it’s quite clear that anti-magic is anti-magic alone; Regardless of what form it takes, enough raw muscle can bypass it. Notably, this would mean Venuzdonoa loses its resistance to power null, as it overcoming “layers upon layers of anti-magic” hardly means anything when it’s a sword, which is a physical attack.

Makes sense, if all melee attacks are consistently described as shredding anti-magic, there's no reason to see it as a unique property of Venuzdonoa.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Thank you both, does this have enough support to be applied now (since Glass agreed earlier)?

 

[Duedate8898]

I think so

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Edits have been applied, this can be closed now.

 

[Deagonx]

Edits have been applied, this can be closed now.

I will close this now.