Android 17 vs Hit

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Lucis=the=Lumenian

The level of argument, the back and forth. There is always a level or undercurrent of ambiguity in DB. Always has been. For instance, we know that 17 got stronger by the end, but by how much is subject to debate as seen here.

It was the same thing back in the Goku vs Vegeta thread. There was a lot of talk on if Vegeta was stronger than Goku at that point, even if by a small amount. Both had been been on par when they pressured Jiren together but eventually Vegeta had beaten GoD Toppo and Goku hadn't had as impressive of a showing at that point by some's reckoning.

Hopefully, this thread doesn't take a month to complete, however.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Unite my Rice

"Anyone at the U6 tournament were the only ones with actual knowledge. Everyone else just saw it and fought against it."

Jiren definitely knew what Time-Skip was and knew the nature of it. Dyspo seemed to have known about Hit prior to the tournament, most likely due to Hit's legendary statues. That probably goes for the rest of the Pride Troopers too, including Jiren. Jiren already knew Hit was an assassin before fighting him. And so far, only those who had this knowledge of Time Skip were able to counter it.

"Prove that he couldn't use the form, otherwise that's just more headcanon."

He was beaten down and could barely move. What makes you think he's gonna gain enhanced speed if he can't even move?

 

[DMB_1]

Oh, and assassination techniques...

 

[Golden_Void]

He was beaten down and could barely move yet he was more than fine when he ran back to his team after Kunshi was knocked out lol.

I also remembered Dyspo confidently challenged Hit but was scared to take on Frieza. Hmmmmmmmm.

Only the U7 members present at the U6 tournament got the details on the technique, yet Goku says without that knowledge (which only his team had), he couldn't have won. Nobody else got those details so you can't prove that they did. You can assume they know of it by his reputation, but you can't prove that either. Jiren saying "so this is time-skip" in the middle of fighting it would prove that even if he knew of it beforehand, you don't really understand the technique until you fight it.

Dyspo said he was going to beat his time-skip, but nearly the entire fight was him smashing Hit before he got a chance to use it. The only time Hit actuallyy landed time-skip was when he faked out Dyspo, and used it in full force on him after Dyspo hesitated.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Dyspo got an advantage over Hit because he could literally hear when Hit was going to use Time Skip. He could identify the sound Hit's muscles make when tensing in preparation. So, Dyspo knows Hit's next move and then uses Light Bullet to blitz him before he can do it. Remember, Dyspo with Light Bullet is fast enough for Champa to not be able to see him and Vados to admit that she 'managed' keep up with him.

Dyspo was winning on the basis of foreknowledge and pure speed. Once Hit adapted, Dyspo was competely at his mercy and got beaten down.

So, we've got a guy who had knowledge of the Time-Skip, had a way to predict it and was fast enough to pull off counters. Yet the moment he didn't have a way to predict it, he was floored and his knowledge did him little good.

 

[Golden_Void]

Why are you repeating what I basically said back to me?

He said all actions make a sound, especially with special techniques. With that knowledge + the ability to instantly boost his speed, he would've never needed to see Hit actually do the move.

Hit only won because he took advantage of this knowledge and faked Dyspo out, leaving him to be unsure of what move to make and taking advantage of that.

Let's not pretend that time-skip alone was the reason Hit won, because that's the furthest thing from the truth. A pre-emptive strike isn't a counter.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Rice

Except Dyspo says straight out that he's there to beat the Time-Skip and Hit even says 'So you know about my Time-Skip.' It's not even a question, it's a statement. Dyspo knows Hit's identity, he knows that Hit can mess with time.

Dyspo had Hit on the defensive with Hit unable to use his Time-Skip until he adapted, being able to now replicate the sounds without actually using the technique. Making it so that Dyspo could no longer know when the Time-Skip was coming or not. The very moment this happens, Hit turns the tables as he can now use the Time-Skip freely, whenever he chooses.

It's pretty clear cut from the beginning that everything is revolving around Hit's Time-Skip and Dyspo's ability to neutrilize it and Hit along with it.

Also, preemptive strikes are used as counters. They are done in response to immenient threats or attack. Counter literally means to act in opposition to.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Unite My Rice

"He was beaten down and could barely move yet he was more than fine when he ran back to his team after Kunshi was knocked out lol."

Then I guess he recovered slightly in that small time frame. He was clearly unable to move when Hit grabbed him by the ear and tossed him, and needed Kunshi to save him.

"I also remembered Dyspo confidently challenged Hit but was scared to take on Frieza. Hmmmmmmmm."

Doesn't matter. This was before Hit upgraded against Dyspo. On top of that, Dyspo knew about Hit already, didn't seem to like him very much, and clearly had a bone to pick with him. It was more about ego and contempt than confidence. On top of that, Dyspo was still worn out when he was avoiding Frieza. On top of that, Golden Frieza is faster than Dyspo without MLSM as stated by Khai, meaning Dyspo didn't have his usual advantage.

"Nobody else got those details so you can't prove that they did. You can assume they know of it by his reputation, but you can't prove that either. Jiren saying "so this is time-skip" in the middle of fighting it would prove that even if he knew of it beforehand, you don't really understand the technique until you fight it."

Really dude? I think Jiren is smart enough to infer the nature of the technique by its very name "Time Skip". I think Jiren can decipher that what he's doing is skipping time. That's the same level of insight Goku had, whereas someone like Vegeta only saw it as disappearing and reappearing, and that he was getting attacked without even seeing Hit move.

None of that really matters in the end. The point is, we haven't seen 17 counter it, whether he knows of its nature or not. Saying he could counter it would also be an assumption. And that's only one of many hax 17 has to worry about.

I don't see 17 dealing with intangibility, ki-clones, or Cage of Time. Even Dyspo completely fell for Hit's intangibility.

"Dyspo said he was going to beat his time-skip, but nearly the entire fight was him smashing Hit before he got a chance to use it. The only time Hit actuallyy landed time-skip was when he faked out Dyspo, and used it in full force on him after Dyspo hesitated."

I'm confused. Are you arguing for Hit or against him? I'm seeing you describe how badly Hit beat down Dyspo, despite trying to use Dyspo to scale 17, who doesn't have Dyspo's speed or any special technique or knowledge to counter Time-Skip, let alone any of Hit's other techniques.

If Dyspo couldn't beat Hit, what makes you think 17 will? What exactly does 17 have that can counter Time-Skip except for just assuming that he can?

Dyspo had immense bursts of speed, along with special hearing that gave him immediate foresight that Hit was about to do it (which grants him the same advantage precognition would). Jiren is two tiers above Hit and is quite literally infinitely more powerful than him. Goku was only ever able to deal with it, but never completely countered it as Hit continued to improve and land hits on Goku with Time-Skip throughout their entire fight. There's literally no reason to believe 17 could counter it, and if he has zero knowledge of it, he wouldn't even know Hit even has this technique going in to fight him. As far as 17 knows, Hit is just some random purple humanoid. He won't even know to expect any weird techniques before they happen.

"Let's not pretend that time-skip alone was the reason Hit won, because that's the furthest thing from the truth."

It wouldn't be the only reason he'd win against 17 either.

 

[Golden_Void]

Dyspo said he was going to beat his time-skip, yet purely fought by attacking Hit before he could even use it.

Hit could only use time-skip freely because he was confusing Dyspo, so it wasn't time-skip as much as it was the counter-tactics that allowed him to use it in the first place. Dyspo only needed to show Hit his true speed and he would've destroyed him. Frieza was already faster than Dyspo who Hit needed to adapt to, only in his final form. Once he went Golden, Frieza was just trolling him until he showed his true power.

"Also, preemptive strikes are used as counters."

This is wrong, counters are used in response to something. A preemptive strike is the exact opposite.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Rice

You assume that.

"This is wrong, counters are used in response to something. A preemptive strike is the exact opposite."

No. A preemptive strike refers to a surprise attack launched with the stated intention of countering an anticipated enemy offensive.

This is a military term and you're playing at semantics.

 

[GyroNutz]

"Dyspo said he was going to beat his time-skip, yet purely fought by attacking Hit before he could even use it."

If he didn't know about time-skip then he wouldn't have known what the muscle movements were for. It's pretty obvious that if Dyspo didn't know about time-skip, he would have been caught off guard and get stomped by Hit.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Also, we should note that despite all the attacks Dyspo got on Hit, it was noted by Toppa that Hit blocked the worst ones and even allowed certains ones to land. As such, he most likely didn't take that much damage.

 

[Golden_Void]

"If he didn't know about time-skip then he wouldn't have known what the muscle movements were for. It's pretty obvious that if Dyspo didn't know about time-skip, he would have been caught off guard and get stomped by Hit. "

Watch the show

"You assume that."

Watch the show

"No. A preemptive strike refers to a surprise attack launched with the stated intention of countering an anticipated enemy offensive. "

A preemptive strike is a prevention technique.

Preventing time-skip -> Dyspo vs Hit

Actually countering it -> Goku vs Hit

Dyspo had no actual counter for the actual ability, thus, he lost.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

"If he didn't know about time-skip then he wouldn't have known what the muscle movements were for. It's pretty obvious that if Dyspo didn't know about time-skip, he would have been caught off guard and get stomped by Hit. "
Watch the show

"You assume that."

Watch the show

"No. A preemptive strike refers to a surprise attack launched with the stated intention of countering an anticipated enemy offensive. "

A preemptive strike is a prevention technique.

Preventing time-skip -> Dyspo vs Hit

Actually countering it -> Goku vs Hit

Dyspo had no actual counter for the actual ability, thus, he lost.

So what's 17 gonna do against Time-Skip?

 

[Golden_Void]

The same thing that everyone else that destroyed it did.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

The same thing that everyone else that destroyed it did.

There was only one person that really destroyed it and that was Jiren.

 

[Golden_Void]

Goku beat it until hit adapted, you can argue he won in their second fight, Jiren destroyed it, Dyspo disallowed it with speed until Hit improved, and 17 doesn't play games and takes any openings he can find. The only person it really beat besides fodder is Vegeta who does not have a tactical mind like most of those I've mentioned.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

"Goku beat it until Hit adapted"

And Hit would adapt against 17. And Hit held back against Goku as he couldn't use killing techniques.

"you can argue he won in their second fight"

Their third fight. In their second fight, Hit insta-killed Goku casually. That's what happens when Hit actually wants to kill someone.

And their third fight was more of a stalemate, plus Hit once again was making sport of the fight and wasn't really going for the kill. It's the only time he did that by choice.

"Dyspo disallowed it with speed until Hit improved"

17 is certainly not gonna do what Dyspo did.

"and 17 doesn't play games and takes any openings he can find."

I still don't understand what 17 would do. He's not gonna hear it the way Dyspo did. He's not Low 2-C like Jiren. At best he'll deal with it the way Goku does, and that's if Hit decides he doesn't want to kill 17.

I feel like Hit will just fire an intangible blast the moment the fight starts and insta-kill 17 before he would even think he needs a barrier.

Anyway, going to work now. Probably won't reply for another 8 hours.

 

[Golden_Void]

 

[GyroNutz]

"I still don't understand what 17 would do. He's not gonna hear it the way Dyspo did. He's not Low 2-C like Jiren. At best he'll deal with it the way Goku does, and that's if Hit decides he doesn't want to kill 17."

Even then you're giving 17 too much credit imo. Goku dealt with it his way due to prior knowledge of Hit's technique as stated by the show. 17 wouldn't have that prior knowledge.

"Watch the show"

All that proves is that Dyspo thought of a strategy ahead of time. And if you watched the show, you would know that it's very specific movements and sounds that Dyspo is able to pick up on, which was why Hit was able to counter his strategy by mirroring those sounds and movements.

Please, whatever you do, never compare low 2-C Jiren to 17. Just because Jiren can beat time skip or block Hit's intangible blasts does not mean 17 can.

 

[Golden_Void]

I guess Dyspo thinks of the same strategies for all his opponents then.

"Please, whatever you do, never compare low 2-C Jiren to 17. Just because Jiren can beat time skip or block Hit's intangible blasts does not mean 17 can."

yawn...more cherry picking. I already proved 3-A Goku could do the same thing in two different ways.

Next person please

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Rice

I did watch the show and, obviously, I got something different out it than you. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate.

Also a preemptive strike, is not prevention.

Preventative action is about stopping something from becoming a threat in the first place. EX: Getting a flu shot before you get the flu.

A preemptive strike is about simply attacking an hostile force before they attack you. You attack on the basis that are going to strike out at you.

Both are about countering (a.k.a. opposing) threats. Prevention deals with latent threats while a preemptive strike is about dealing with immienent ones.

 

[Golden_Void]

"Also a preemptive strike, is not prevention.

Preventative action is about stopping something from becoming a threat in the first place. EX: Getting a flu shot before you get the flu.

A preemptive strike is about simply attacking an hostile force before they attack you. You attack on the basis that are going to strike out at you.

Both are about countering (a.k.a. opposing) threats. Prevention deals with latent threats while a preemptive strike is about dealing with immienent ones."

Definition of preemptio


a policy of launching a preemptive attack in order to prevent a suspected imminent attack
Definition of preempt
to prevent from happening or taking place

pre┬Àempt
(prē-─òmptÔÇ▓)

v. pre┬Àempt┬Àed, pre┬Àempt┬Àing, pre┬Àempts

a. To take action to prevent (an event or other action) from happening; forestall: "The [Joint] Chiefs ... proposedthe use of nuclear weapons to preempt China's anticipated attack on Formosa" (James Carroll).

b. To take action to prevent (another) from acting.

to forestall or prevent (something anticipated) by acting first; head off.

 

[Golden_Void]

I don't need multiple dictionaries to prove myself right. Dyspo was clearly not giving Hit any chance to use his time-skip until he got cocky and let Hit beat his strategy.

 

[Wokistan]

@Rice

I did watch the show and, obviously, I got something different out it than you. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate.

Also a preemptive strike, is not prevention.

Preventative action is about stopping something from becoming a threat in the first place. EX: Getting a flu shot before you get the flu.

A preemptive strike is about simply attacking an hostile force before they attack you. You attack on the basis that are going to strike out at you.

Both are about countering (a.k.a. opposing) threats. Prevention deals with latent threats while a preemptive strike is about dealing with immienent ones.

Your own example puts both at the same thing. The possibility that someone else could attack isn't an imminent threat.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

A preemptive strike is a military action taken to forestall an imminent military attack or other type of threat. This type of activity is different from a preventive actio, which is undertaken to counter a more distant threat. In this respect, a preemptive strike deals with a current threat, while preventive action deals with a potential or future threat.

Also:

Oh so now Dyspo 'let' Hit do it.

 

[Wokistan]

A preemptive strike is a military action taken to forestall an imminent military attack or other type of threat. This type of activity is different from a preventive actio, which is undertaken to counter a more distant threat. In this respect, a preemptive strike deals with a current threat, while preventive action deals with a potential or future threat.

Also:

Oh so now Dyspo 'let' Hit do it.

The official military terminology doesn't change what's happening. Either way, its used before time stop to stop it from ever going off.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Wokistan

Friend...I really don't care anymore. Right, wrong, whatever.

The one thing I will say is: I apologize to everyone for aiding in derailing this thread.

 

[Golden_Void]

fore┬Àstall

verb

1. prevent or obstruct (an anticipated event or action) by taking action ahead of time.

Now lets use your definition with the meaning of forestall.

"A preemptive strike is a military action taken to prevent an imminent military attack or other type of threat."

Preemptive strikes are preventative in nature. Counters are reactive in nature. You can't counter something that hasn't happened or isn't happening. Context can easily tell you the word you are looking for is prevent. You have no argument or nothing left to say. You trying to create a debate over my word choice is proof of that.

I think we're done here.

Edit: apology accepted

 

[Jobbo]

17 FRA, Hit would probably turn into mist if he took the hits 17 took.

 

[Wokistan]

If I haven't voted yet, 17 fra

 

[TurboTriangle601]

Hit FRA.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

1 votes for Hit and 3 votes for 17.

Hitto : 11 + 1 (TurboTriangle601) = 12

17-san : 9 + 3 (ZackMoon1234, Jobbo, Wokistan) = 12

Incon : 2

 

[TurboTriangle601]

Alright in second thought i change my vote to 17.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I'm actually gonna vote inconclusive due to the amount of unknowns

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I'm wanking Hit because I don't believe 17 will have an answer to Time Skip or any of Hit's other hax? Yet scaling 17 to Jiren's level is not wanking?

And how is 17 gonna deal with Hit's other hax? The only thing I'd give 17 is that he can possibly block the invisible ki blasts with barriers. Other than that, how is he gonna deal with Intangibility and Cage of Time?

You know what? At the end of the day, we should be going on what's on these characters profiles. Jiren has resistance to Time Stop on his profile. Goku has resistance to Time Stop on his profile. Dyspo had a way of preventing it, but could not resist it once it was activated. You know who doesn't officially have resistance to it? 17! If you believe he can do it, then you should make a Content Revision Thread and see if the staff approves of it. Otherwise, he doesn't have it, and it would be wrong to vote in 17's favor under the premise that he can.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

I'm actually gonna vote inconclusive due to the amount of unknowns

? What unknowns? But eh, I'd count your vote anyway

Seeing MeleeniumRXJ's post. I think I'll change my vote to Inconc. If 17 can't crush Time Cage or HitDimension then Hit should have enough time to improve and surpass 17 in no time... But I'm not sure if Hit can reach that level (no feat of Hit getting as strong as Jiren for example, even if its theoritically plausible). But 17 also has stamina thing. This might mean the game of tag may go on forever. So Inconc

-1 votes for Hit, -1 votes for 17, 1 votes for 17 and 2 votes for incon.

Hitto : 11 - 1 (TurboTriangle601) = 10

17-san : 12 - 1 (Lucis=the=Lumenian) + 1 (TurboTriangle601) = 12

Incon : 2 + 2 (Jordanbairdcreaturemaster97, Lucis=the=Lumenian) = 4

 

[GyroNutz]

yawn...more cherry picking. I already proved 3-A Goku could do the same thing in two different ways.

not cherry picking if Jiren should in no way factor into this particular argument lmfao. Also I've already proven Hit was holding back against Goku in all of their fights, and has improved since then via fighting Dyspo and Jiren.

Furthermore it really doesn't matter if it was a counter or a preemptive strike; Dyspo had a strategy for time-skip that he formed through his own knowledge. That's why Hit was able to trick Dyspo by mirroring the sounds + movements of a time-skip. Very simple.

"Seeing MeleeniumRXJ's post. I think I'll change my vote to Inconc. If 17 can't crush Time Cage or HitDimension then Hit should have enough time to improve and surpass 17 in no time... But I'm not sure if Hit can reach that level (no feat of Hit getting as strong as Jiren for example, even if its theoritically plausible). But 17 also has stamina thing. This might mean the game of tag may go on forever."

The gap between 17's and Hit's AP isn't THAT great. Hit was able to self-improve from being below SSB Goku to stalemating KKx10 SSB Goku. 17 should still be quite a bit weaker than G.o.D. Toppo. And if the battle drags on for longer, that only plays to Hit's advantage.

 

[KingPin0422]

17 FRA

 

[KinkiestSins]

Android 17 FRA