- 3,256
- 1,285
When it comes to the two, if I had to sum up their advantages, (at least, how I look at it) it would go like this and will elaborate on each one. I'll also give my opinion on other things I why I think Hit wins. I will also try to acknowledge certain things that I don't consider to be concrete. Please bear with me, this going to be long. In addition, please note this less of me trying to prove the 17 supporters wrong and more of detailed explanation of my own outlook the various factors in the fight.
Android 17
-Unlimited Ki/Stamina: 17 doesn't run out of energy, meaning that he just keep going and going. This also means that he can waste energy trying different tactics and not really have to worry. It also means that he can potentially outlast Hit. That assumes the fight will last that long but it is something to keep in mind.
-Barrier: This is basically 17's trump card against stronger attacks. The major point of contention is if it could block Hit's Assassination Blasts. While there is a case to be made, we have to recall the fact that we've never seen the two techniques interact and we don't credit 17 with blocking intagible attacks, as he's never shown it. It's kind of hard to say and belive a character can do something, that we've never seen him do nor does the site credit him as such.
-Greater AP: This is the real ambigious one to me. By the time the ToP was about to end and Jiren was Universe 7's final opponent, he's wounded and exhausted, to the point that 17 and Freiza, two guys that got rekt by GoD Toppo, can seemingly put up a real fight. Actually forget that, together, they almost beat him until Toppo gave a speech! Shoot, eventually base Goku and base Frieza were able to fight and ring Jiren out of the stage. There was also a line that all of them (17, Frieza and Goku) had pushed beyond their limits. So we know, 17 is stronger, but so is Frieza and it was a team effort between both of them. But we don't know just how much they are, given Jiren's critical condition and the fact the Pride Trooper was also outnumbered. Then Goku rejoins the mix and that muddies the waters even more. This makes it really hard to say where exactly 17 stands on the power scale outside of 'Better than he was before.' He might have an AP advantage over Hit, but I couldn't begin to tell you how much, honestly, given just how much happened in that last episode of DBS.
-Can't be sensed: 17's ki is undetectable. Should he choose to hide, there's no real way to use energy sensing to find him, allowing for sneak attacks.
Hit
-Time-Skip: Hit's signature technique that let's him Time Stop. Goku has broken through it and so has Jiren. But 17 is not them. Again, this is one where 17 has no true credit if he could do it. There's also the point of if 17 actually knows about this technique or not. 17 had never seen or heard of Hit before the ToP. You can say that 'Yes, he can do it.' But then I say, where's your proof? We have two characters that have done so and we give them that resistance to Time Stop accordingly. You can then turn it around and say Ok, where's the proof he can't, then?'. 1. They've never interacted. 2. Again, we don't credit 17 that based on 1. and we don't credit others (like Vegeta, Toppo, the Angels, GoDs) who you have a better case than even 17 does for the same reason. Not too mention, it's feels like we're playing loose with the information on the profiles. But that's just how I feel about it.
-Intagibility: Hit goes to a parallel world, becoming intangible. This is a technique that no one but Goku has ever shown just straight overpowering by destroying the parallel world. It's really arguable if 17 could do the same because we've seen that capability of him and just assuming he could do it doesn't really feel right. Hit doesn't physically attack while in this state but he can still launch his intangible/invisible Assassination Blasts.
-Assassination Blasts: Invisible energy attacks that can phase through matter and ignore durability. These are Hit's go-to kill technique. If they hit a vital point, they will kill the target, though they can be used non-lethally. These attacks are very hard to detect and react to for the most part. Goku was competely taken off guard by these the first time (resulting in his death, though he was able to revive) and had to concentrate quite hard to sense them (he had to close his eyes) before being able to counter them. These blasts can also be fired from any direction and then reappear from anywhere around the target. (This is seen in Episode 72. Hit was shown firing one and having it go behind him, only for it to reappear in front of Goku. Hit also fired others in multiple directions, even through the ground, and the blasts then materialized around different points to fire at Goku.) Granted, Jiren was able to sense and stop this attack with a hand but Jiren is so far above Hit (and everyone else in the ToP at that time) in almost every way. We have no clue that 17 could even sense these in time, if at all, or block them with his barrier.
-Self Improvement: Hit basically grows stronger and improves the efficienty/use of his techniques in response to his opponent. Examples include improving his Time-Skip's duration during his fight with Goku (from 0.5 seconds to unknown but much longer duration), mimicking certain sounds to throw off Dyspo's strategy, or even analysing Jiren's fighting style to the point that it allowed Hit to get in one strike to activate his Cage of Time. Now, trying to say that this alone could let Hit win against 17 is dubious and it could become a NLF easily it taken to an extreme. But it does show that Hit is constantly adapting and evolving as an opponent and not just in raw power.
-Ki Clones: Hit forms duplicates of his ki to make his location much harder to sense and trick people into thinking he's in one place when he really isn't. Goku had to close his eyes and focus to sift through all the duplicates and find the real Hit, and couldn't do this immediately.
-Cage of Time: Hit delivers a blow to his opponent, paralysing them by suspending them in time. Honestly, it's hard to say whether or not 17 could break out of this. Hit's only example of using it was on...Jiren, who we've already established and know, is Hit's utter superior. Then given how ambigious I believe it is that 17 may or may not be strogner than Hit, I can't say this is a definite game over should Hit get 17 with it. I such, I don't consider it as big of a factor here. Even worse when you consider that this was used to try and knock Jiren out of the arena and remove him from the tournament, not straight up defeat him.
In conclusion, the reason I think Hit wins is because of his track record and what it's taken to stalemate and beat him. Goku had to witness, experience first hand and refine various methods to deal with Hit.
1st fight was in a tournament and the two fought within it's rules to basically a draw, though Hit wasn't allowed to kill which gimps him as an assassin as noted by Goku. That, plus having watched Vegeta's match, bought Goku time to start adpating to Hit and figuring out ways to fight him, which in turn pushed Hit to improve to keep up.
2nd fight, Hit's hax completely blindsides Goku and allows Hit to kill him. Luckily, Goku fired a ki blast into the air that came back down a revived him.
3rd fight, Goku's better prepared and on guard. However, he still has to really try to honestly deal with and adpat to all the stuff Hit is throwing at him. It ultimately ends in a draw between the two. Remember if Goku had made a mistake during that, Hit would've killed him all over again. It would have only taken one shot.
Now with Dyspo, he had a method to get one over on Hit and pressure him. However, Hit was noted by Toppo to be avoiding all the critical blows and even letting certain ones land, so he sent Kunshi to save Dyspo from this fishy situation. This proved to be the right choice as Hit nearly rung Dyspo out of the arena and Kunshi was forced to save him. Eventually, when Dyspo and Hit fight again, Hit's adapted to his strategy, allowing him to beat Dyspo down and forcing Kunshi to step in again to recover him. Now, what would have happened if Dyspo went Light Speed Mode? No clue, we never got to see that. What would happen if Hit had been allowed to kill and during that beat down, Hit got him with an assassination blast and killed him ouright? Also remember that Hit got Kunshi with a non-lethal blast, which in any other setting, would have killed him. That would be two Pride Troopers dead.
Finally, we're at Jiren, who shows the other method of dealing with Hit: Be just out and out superior to Hit in virtually all categories. Jiren was the strongest participant in the ToP at that time, even when supressing himself, and basically dismantled all of Hit's arsenal. Time-Skip? Seemingly uneffective and completely adapted to, rendering it useless and getting Hit beat down in the process. Assassination Blasts? Countered without effort. Hit improves enough to get one major blow in and activate Cage of Time. However, Jiren overpowers it and knocks Hit out.
To sum up:
Goku Method: Try to puzzle it out but you risk dying if you get it wrong or make a mistake.
Dyspo Method: Have some key advantage to off balance and pressure Hit. Problem with this is that if that's all you got really going for you when engaging him, he's likely to improve to overcome it. You're probably dead at that point.
Jiren Method: Be so balls to the wall superior, that nothing he does really matters.
Android 17
-Unlimited Ki/Stamina: 17 doesn't run out of energy, meaning that he just keep going and going. This also means that he can waste energy trying different tactics and not really have to worry. It also means that he can potentially outlast Hit. That assumes the fight will last that long but it is something to keep in mind.
-Barrier: This is basically 17's trump card against stronger attacks. The major point of contention is if it could block Hit's Assassination Blasts. While there is a case to be made, we have to recall the fact that we've never seen the two techniques interact and we don't credit 17 with blocking intagible attacks, as he's never shown it. It's kind of hard to say and belive a character can do something, that we've never seen him do nor does the site credit him as such.
-Greater AP: This is the real ambigious one to me. By the time the ToP was about to end and Jiren was Universe 7's final opponent, he's wounded and exhausted, to the point that 17 and Freiza, two guys that got rekt by GoD Toppo, can seemingly put up a real fight. Actually forget that, together, they almost beat him until Toppo gave a speech! Shoot, eventually base Goku and base Frieza were able to fight and ring Jiren out of the stage. There was also a line that all of them (17, Frieza and Goku) had pushed beyond their limits. So we know, 17 is stronger, but so is Frieza and it was a team effort between both of them. But we don't know just how much they are, given Jiren's critical condition and the fact the Pride Trooper was also outnumbered. Then Goku rejoins the mix and that muddies the waters even more. This makes it really hard to say where exactly 17 stands on the power scale outside of 'Better than he was before.' He might have an AP advantage over Hit, but I couldn't begin to tell you how much, honestly, given just how much happened in that last episode of DBS.
-Can't be sensed: 17's ki is undetectable. Should he choose to hide, there's no real way to use energy sensing to find him, allowing for sneak attacks.
Hit
-Time-Skip: Hit's signature technique that let's him Time Stop. Goku has broken through it and so has Jiren. But 17 is not them. Again, this is one where 17 has no true credit if he could do it. There's also the point of if 17 actually knows about this technique or not. 17 had never seen or heard of Hit before the ToP. You can say that 'Yes, he can do it.' But then I say, where's your proof? We have two characters that have done so and we give them that resistance to Time Stop accordingly. You can then turn it around and say Ok, where's the proof he can't, then?'. 1. They've never interacted. 2. Again, we don't credit 17 that based on 1. and we don't credit others (like Vegeta, Toppo, the Angels, GoDs) who you have a better case than even 17 does for the same reason. Not too mention, it's feels like we're playing loose with the information on the profiles. But that's just how I feel about it.
-Intagibility: Hit goes to a parallel world, becoming intangible. This is a technique that no one but Goku has ever shown just straight overpowering by destroying the parallel world. It's really arguable if 17 could do the same because we've seen that capability of him and just assuming he could do it doesn't really feel right. Hit doesn't physically attack while in this state but he can still launch his intangible/invisible Assassination Blasts.
-Assassination Blasts: Invisible energy attacks that can phase through matter and ignore durability. These are Hit's go-to kill technique. If they hit a vital point, they will kill the target, though they can be used non-lethally. These attacks are very hard to detect and react to for the most part. Goku was competely taken off guard by these the first time (resulting in his death, though he was able to revive) and had to concentrate quite hard to sense them (he had to close his eyes) before being able to counter them. These blasts can also be fired from any direction and then reappear from anywhere around the target. (This is seen in Episode 72. Hit was shown firing one and having it go behind him, only for it to reappear in front of Goku. Hit also fired others in multiple directions, even through the ground, and the blasts then materialized around different points to fire at Goku.) Granted, Jiren was able to sense and stop this attack with a hand but Jiren is so far above Hit (and everyone else in the ToP at that time) in almost every way. We have no clue that 17 could even sense these in time, if at all, or block them with his barrier.
-Self Improvement: Hit basically grows stronger and improves the efficienty/use of his techniques in response to his opponent. Examples include improving his Time-Skip's duration during his fight with Goku (from 0.5 seconds to unknown but much longer duration), mimicking certain sounds to throw off Dyspo's strategy, or even analysing Jiren's fighting style to the point that it allowed Hit to get in one strike to activate his Cage of Time. Now, trying to say that this alone could let Hit win against 17 is dubious and it could become a NLF easily it taken to an extreme. But it does show that Hit is constantly adapting and evolving as an opponent and not just in raw power.
-Ki Clones: Hit forms duplicates of his ki to make his location much harder to sense and trick people into thinking he's in one place when he really isn't. Goku had to close his eyes and focus to sift through all the duplicates and find the real Hit, and couldn't do this immediately.
-Cage of Time: Hit delivers a blow to his opponent, paralysing them by suspending them in time. Honestly, it's hard to say whether or not 17 could break out of this. Hit's only example of using it was on...Jiren, who we've already established and know, is Hit's utter superior. Then given how ambigious I believe it is that 17 may or may not be strogner than Hit, I can't say this is a definite game over should Hit get 17 with it. I such, I don't consider it as big of a factor here. Even worse when you consider that this was used to try and knock Jiren out of the arena and remove him from the tournament, not straight up defeat him.
In conclusion, the reason I think Hit wins is because of his track record and what it's taken to stalemate and beat him. Goku had to witness, experience first hand and refine various methods to deal with Hit.
1st fight was in a tournament and the two fought within it's rules to basically a draw, though Hit wasn't allowed to kill which gimps him as an assassin as noted by Goku. That, plus having watched Vegeta's match, bought Goku time to start adpating to Hit and figuring out ways to fight him, which in turn pushed Hit to improve to keep up.
2nd fight, Hit's hax completely blindsides Goku and allows Hit to kill him. Luckily, Goku fired a ki blast into the air that came back down a revived him.
3rd fight, Goku's better prepared and on guard. However, he still has to really try to honestly deal with and adpat to all the stuff Hit is throwing at him. It ultimately ends in a draw between the two. Remember if Goku had made a mistake during that, Hit would've killed him all over again. It would have only taken one shot.
Now with Dyspo, he had a method to get one over on Hit and pressure him. However, Hit was noted by Toppo to be avoiding all the critical blows and even letting certain ones land, so he sent Kunshi to save Dyspo from this fishy situation. This proved to be the right choice as Hit nearly rung Dyspo out of the arena and Kunshi was forced to save him. Eventually, when Dyspo and Hit fight again, Hit's adapted to his strategy, allowing him to beat Dyspo down and forcing Kunshi to step in again to recover him. Now, what would have happened if Dyspo went Light Speed Mode? No clue, we never got to see that. What would happen if Hit had been allowed to kill and during that beat down, Hit got him with an assassination blast and killed him ouright? Also remember that Hit got Kunshi with a non-lethal blast, which in any other setting, would have killed him. That would be two Pride Troopers dead.
Finally, we're at Jiren, who shows the other method of dealing with Hit: Be just out and out superior to Hit in virtually all categories. Jiren was the strongest participant in the ToP at that time, even when supressing himself, and basically dismantled all of Hit's arsenal. Time-Skip? Seemingly uneffective and completely adapted to, rendering it useless and getting Hit beat down in the process. Assassination Blasts? Countered without effort. Hit improves enough to get one major blow in and activate Cage of Time. However, Jiren overpowers it and knocks Hit out.
To sum up:
Goku Method: Try to puzzle it out but you risk dying if you get it wrong or make a mistake.
Dyspo Method: Have some key advantage to off balance and pressure Hit. Problem with this is that if that's all you got really going for you when engaging him, he's likely to improve to overcome it. You're probably dead at that point.
Jiren Method: Be so balls to the wall superior, that nothing he does really matters.
