Android 17 vs Hit

[GyroNutz]

After rewatching the match of 17 vs Jiren... people are seriously overhyping 17. Yes, Jiren was more powerful. Yes, Jiren was more supressed against Hit. However, just because someone fights another character doesn't mean they're comparable. 17 got a point blank sneak attack, sure, but afterwards was foddered by Jiren, with at least 20 of his barriers being casually punched through in a row. Jiren vs 17 in episode 131 is an inconclusive feat as Jiren was severely weakened, much more so than 17.

Another example is Ganos vs Goku which happened briefly at the start of the T.O.P. Ganos was able to take hits from Goku, and yet was knocked off by weakened Master Roshi. If anything, I'd say 17 not getting knocked off immediately by Jiren was plot reasons to build up suspense.

Also, I'd like to address the whole argument that 17 can think up a strategy vs Hit. Let's look at Hit's previous matches to see how that goes.

Vegeta vs Hit (universe 6 arc): Vegeta had no clue about Hit's technique and lost easily to Hit's weakest state.

Goku vs Hit (future trunks saga): Goku had no clue about Hit's technique and was one shot. Compared to...

Goku vs Hit (universe 6 arc): Goku was told about, and explicitly saw Hit's time skip, so he was able to form a strategy against it.

Dyspo vs Hit (universe survival arc): He explicitly knew about Hit's time skip, so he was able to form a strategy against it.

17 hasn't explicitly been shown to see Hit's time skip. Even if we assume he has, he wouldn't know about Hit's other techniques, nor the severity of his techniques out of tournament settings. Ik I've changed my vote already, but it's obvious that Hit held his own better than 17 in their respective fights against Jiren by far, and my previous point about 17 not knowing about Hit's techniques hasn't been disproven yet. Therefore I change my vote back to Hit.

TL;DR: 17's durability and AP advantages aren't as big as people are making them out to be. Hit's techniques are deadly to 17 who hasn't been shown to have a clue what he's capable of.

 

[Golden_Void]

Knowledge of time skip means nothing in the face of the actual technique, otherwise literally nobody should've been allowing it to work. Goku had knowledge and still got hit by it until he improved and stalemated Hit. Goku was only killed by him because he made a dumb assumption that Hit was going to attack with a move that wouldn't hit him. Jiren had no knowledge of time skip and completely destroyed Hit's entire arsenal. Dyspo beat time skip via listening to his muscle movements until Hit improved, and we now know Dyspo was still holding back.

Hit is only comparable to Goku SSBKKx20 pre-UI, and 17 could keep up with the same form after 2 UI transformations, as well as keep up with Blue Evolution Vegeta and not get destroyed by Jiren at full power ike Hit did when Jiren was suppressed.

Let's not give Hit too much credit. There's also the fact Goku (on Earth) blocked Hit's intangible attacks with ki blasts, and suppressed Jiren blocked them with his bare hands.

 

[GyroNutz]

Goku was only killed by him because he made a dumb assumption that Hit was going to attack with a move that wouldn't hit him. Jiren had no knowledge of time skip and completely destroyed Hit's entire arsenal. Dyspo beat time skip via listening to his muscle movements until Hit improved, and we now know Dyspo was still holding back.

Let's not forget that Jiren watched the fight between Dyspo and Hit, which was explicitly shown. He definitely had knowledge of the time skip, Dyspo clearly knew about Hit's time skip as he led off with 'I'm here to beat your time skip'.

I think 17's the one getting a bit too much credit here. Bar the sneak attack, Vegeta and Goku clearly stood more of a chance against this full powered Jiren, which was an extremely extremely small one to begin with, whereas Hit was definitely superior to Goku SSBKKx20 pre-UI (that's a mouthful) shown by his fight with an admittedly very supressed Jiren.

Let's not forget that 17 was knocked clean out (onto the rocks) for at least two minutes and was severely weakened afterwards (shown he was either on par or weaker than Golden Frieza who had no real reason to be any more powerful than before) whereas Hit was never knocked out; he was very much concious after being shot out of the arena.

 

[Golden_Void]

You're seriously comparing 0% Jiren to 100% Jiren like they're in any way comparable. Like I said knowledge of time skip =/= beating it, nor is it the same as going against it.

 

[Mirai-Koichi]

You're seriously comparing 0% Jiren to 100% Jiren like they're in any way comparable. Like I said knowledge of time skip =/= beating it, nor is it the same as going against it.

Hit VS Jire

Dude. You have absolutely no way of proving that Jiren was that suppressed. Given his attacks and effort put into stopping Hit's attacks and the fight kept going it seems pretty clear that Jiren was in fact trying (17 was fodderized under similar circumstances mind you, and that was with the help of 2 SSJB's) and Hit was finished off by Jiren's signature attack (Which even 17's barrier could hot stop as we saw in 127) so it's very clear he wasn't as supressed as your making him out to be.

Also you're dodging the actual arguments since you really want 17 to win. The argument isn't Knowledge = Beating Time Skip, the argument is:

"Based on Hit's resumé of battling enemies with no knowledge of his Time-Skip and defeating them, it should stand to reason that Hit would have a similar advantage in this battle since 17 has no prior knowledge and far more skilled fighters (Goku, Vegeta)were defeated without prep so 17 likely can't immediately counter the Time-Stop."

^Unless you can refute this argument (almost all which is based on canonical representation and not assumption) 17 loses.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

There's also the fact 17 doesn't really have an answer to Hit's intangibility nor his illusions.

Also, saying that because Goku (who got the luxury of trial and error against Hit) and Jiren (whose just way more powerful even when supressed, and has shown to be capable of adapting quickly [Hit stated that Jiren had completely adapted to his Time Skip] ) countered Hit, 17 can as well, is a little farfetched. 17 has not displayed those capabilities. It would be like saying that Vegeta (whose powered up immensely since he first fought Hit) can suddenly resist Time Skip and block intangible attacks with his bare hands, despite the fact that Vegeta's never shown to do that.

 

[Golden_Void]

"You have absolutely no way of proving that Jiren was that suppressed."

Episode 109 : Context: Jiren is effortlessly destroying the spirit bomb backed by SSBKKx20 Goku (aka far beyond Hit's power)

Anat (U1 Kaioshin): "The willpower to control that with just his glare...I sense a far higher power from him."

Whis: "Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power."

Episode 123 : Belmod: I sense a rise in Jiren! I haven't seen Jiren like this in quite a long time!

Episode 126 : Narrator: Jiren, becoming the final warrior, unleashes his hidden power.

Goku was "trying" against Krillin yet he was still holding back, is Krillin SSB level now? To be frank, if you believe the Jiren that went against Hit is any way similar to his later showings of power, you have no business arguing with me. Stop debating from headcanon and start debating from facts.

"^Unless you can refute this argument (almost all which is based on canonical representation and not assumption) 17 loses."

I've already refuted that argument. Jiren had no knowledge or prep for Hit and completely destroyed his arsenal by being physically superior. "So this is time skip " proves he had no knowledge, yet Hit got destroyed. Hit used time-skip to dodge Jiren a few times, Jiren saw the technique, and proceeded to demolish Hit. Same goes for Dyspo who was also holding back against hit. Same goes for Goku (though he's behind everyone else on the learning curve). Plus the sheer durability and versatility of 17's shields give him multiple options of defense and offense to compliment his great tactics.

"more skilled fighters (Goku, Vegeta)were defeated without prep"

Goku never lost to time-skip, he stalemated Hit their first match, and arguably beat him in their second. The only reason Goku died was because of the foolish assumption that Hit's attack wouldn't reach him, even when Hit already told him his killing blow is a single strike from the front. Though like I said, that attack can be blocked, and has been proven by Goku and Jiren. Goku blocked it with a norma ki blast which is proof that pretty much anyone with ki can stop Hit's killing strike, and Jiren could do it with his bare hands.

 

[GyroNutz]

I've already refuted that argument. Jiren had no knowledge or prep for Hit and completely destroyed his arsenal by being physically superior. "So this is time skip " proves he had no knowledge, yet Hit got destroyed. Hit used time-skip to dodge Jiren a few times, Jiren saw the technique, and proceeded to demolish Hit. Same goes for Dyspo who was also holding back against hit. Same goes for Goku (though he's behind everyone else on the learning curve). Plus the sheer durability and versatility of 17's shields give him multiple options of defense and offense to compliment his great tactics.

I'll give a full rebuttal later if needed, but thought I'd argue this since, well, it was my point originally. So you claim that Jiren has no knowledge of time skip, and that he had no prep either. You also said Dyspo had no knowledge either. However, you ignored the evidence I gave.

Here's proof that Jiren not only saw the match between Hit and Dyspo, and thus knew what time skip was, but was clearly deep in thought, implying he was thinking of a strategy. After beating Hit, Jiren goes into meditation saying all the warriors that he's needed for are gone, implying that he had thought ahead and realised that, for his universe to win, he had to beat Hit, which he sure as hell wouldn't have thought without knowing Hit's signature move.

Furthermore, here's proof that Dyspo knew what Hit's time-skip was. This one's more self-explanatory, but I'm genuinely curious - since when was is stated that Dyspo was holding back?

Finally, how in the world does saying 'So this is time-skip' imply, let alone prove, that Jiren had no knowledge of time-skip. If anything, it's more like what someone would say if they know of something beforehand and had only just then experienced it which completely works with my point.

Also '0% Jiren to 100% Jiren' lol.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Hit takes this. He has too much hax for 17 to handle, not to mention he's the most no-nonsense fighter in the whole franchise and will immediately go for the kill.

17's best defense is his barriers and infinite stamina, and that's assuming it can block Hit's intangible shockwaves. And that's also assuming 17 will even begin the fight using a barrier.

I'm doubtful 17 has the AP advantage. 17 was fodderized by Jiren and only hurt Jiren when he was severely weakened by MUI Goku. Where as Hit actually gave a fully healthy Jiren some trouble. No, I don't think Jiren was anywhere near 100% against Hit, but he wasn't at 0% either. Hit made Jiren put in some effort. Toppo even said Hit is doing surprisingly well against him.

Suppressed Jiren against Hit >>> Jiren weakened and injured by MUI Goku. Jiren was further getting beaten by base Frieza and Base Goku. There's no way he was more powerful than when he fought Hit.

And Hit getting blitzed by Dyspo doesn't count anymore. Hit upgraded in the middle of that battle and completely turned the tables on Dyspo. If Hit and Dyspo fought in a rematch, Hit would stomp him.

 

[Golden_Void]

Your counter-argument is just further proof of my claim stating knowledge of time skip =/= actually facing it in combat. "So this is time-skip" is a completely useless statement if we believe that simply watching it in combat translates in any way to being able to defeat it in actual combat.

Further proof of that is Goku being told by the Galactic Patrol King of Hit's abilities, and still getting bodied by the technique trying to figure it out, until Goku figures it out and matches it, then powers up and makes the technique worthless until Hit adapted.

Hit thinking about Jiren: "He's completely adapted to my time-skip!"

More proof that simply watching the ability is nothing compared to actually being in combat with it, and adapting entirely or getting destroyed.

"since when was is stated that Dyspo was holding back?"

Since Dyspo never revealed his Super Maximum Speed mode against Hit.

 

[Golden_Void]

@MeleeniumRXJ

I've debunked nearly the entirety of your argument, besides this headcanon --> "Suppressed Jiren against Hit >>> Jiren weakened and injured by MUI Goku".

And this paragraph "I'm doubtful 17 has the AP advantage..." is full of false equivalencies and heavily relies on episode 131, as if that was the only episode where 17 fought Jiren and joined forces with the other top-tier fighters.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Unite My Rice

Frieza blatantly said Jiren is far weaker than before. On top of that, both him and Goku in BASE FORM were giving him trouble, when Jiren was fodderizing all of Goku's higher forms much earlier on (minus UI). Jiren no doubt was at his weakest state than he's ever been in the whole arc.

I don't recall a time 17 hurt Jiren before this weakened state, so maybe I forgot. So if you can point out a time he did, that would be great.

 

[GyroNutz]

Your counter-argument is just further proof of my claim stating knowledge of time skip =/= actually facing it in combat. "So this is time-skip" is a completely useless statement if we believe that simply watching it in combat translates in any way to being able to defeat it in actual combat.
That... wasn't your original claim. But anyway, have you forgotten when Vegeta tried to adapt to Hit's time-skip, who's a genius fighter in his own right, but was still bodied? Did you miss where Goku told the Galactic Patrol King explicitly that if he didn't know about time-skip, he couldn't have done anything? "So this is time-skip" would contradict episode 104 unless he had knowledge of the technique which he could use.

Dyspo not using a last resort form =/= Dyspo holding back. Remember at the end of the battle, Dyspo was unable to move. If Dyspo had a chance to use his Super Maximum Speed mode against Hit he would have.

Also, while it is true that Jiren blocked an intangible blast of Hit's through sheer power, that's irrelevant here. The power gap between Hit and Jiren is far, far bigger than the power gap between 17 and Hit, which I still argue isn't that great; certainly not large enough to where Hit can't self-improve up to and beyond 17's level. Unless, of course, 17 suddenly gets a 2-C key.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I also don't see the point in bringing up Dyspo's Maximum Light Speed Mode. It's not like 17 ever beat Dyspo in that form, and Frieza didn't either by himself. It took a team effort to beat Dyspo in that form, and it involved a strategy that negated the form rather than beating it out-right. I'm sure if Frieza made that laser cage around Dyspo, and Hit attacked him, Hit would have no problem making short work of him.

And I agree with Gyro. Not using that form doesn't = holding back. That's like saying SSB Goku is holding back if he's not using Kaioken. I interpreted Dyspo's MLSM as a speed amping ability.

In terms of AP I'd say Hit >= Golden Frieza who's probably > 17. Hit, after adapting, stomped Dyspo. Golden Frieza was also about to stomp Dyspo before he powered up to MLSM.

Speaking of which, Golden Frieza vs 17 is probably a more even fight. Maybe someone should make a thread.

 

[Golden_Void]

"I don't sense that absolute strength you exhibited earlier anymore"

Episode 130 : "Strength is justice! Strength is absolute!" >Immediately breaks his limits and fights MUI Goku. That is the Jiren Frieza is referring to.

"Once shattered strength is so fragile"

After Goku started destroying Jiren and attacked his ideals of friendship, Goku destroyed him and Jiren pretty much begged to be finished off. That's Jiren's strength being shattered.

@Gyro

Actually it was. And Vegeta didn't try to adapt, the whole time he thought Hit had super speed with weak strikes, he never came close to figuring time-skip out, much less adapting to it. I'm also pretty sure the King never said that, but even if he did, Goku and crew were the only ones given such specific knowledge of the ability. Even then, Jiren's statement wouldn't contradict anything. The king was only going off of theory and assumptions (self-claimed), not any fact. To the uneducated observer, time-skip is described as Hit disappearing then reappearing. That's all anybody who watched Hit fight observed, and it still means nothing compared to fighting it.

"Dyspo not using a last resort form =/= Dyspo holding back. Remember at the end of the battle, Dyspo was unable to move. If Dyspo had a chance to use his Super Maximum Speed mode against Hit he would have."

"And I agree with Gyro. Not using that form doesn't = holding back. That's like saying SSB Goku is holding back if he's not using Kaioken. I interpreted Dyspo's MLSM as a speed amping ability. "

That's exactly what it means. Gohan fought Goku at SS2 and told him to use full strength, then he turned SSB and Gohan still told him to use full strength, so Goku used kaioken. Calling a secret technique a last resort doesn't change that he was holding back. Goku didn't hold back against Jiren. He gave him everything and even a spirit bomb. Toppo didn't hold back, he showed his god powers, etc.

"Also, while it is true that Jiren blocked an intangible blast of Hit's through sheer power, that's irrelevant here. The power gap between Hit and Jiren is far, far bigger than the power gap between 17 and Hit, which I still argue isn't that great; certainly not large enough to where Hit can't self-improve up to and beyond 17's level. Unless, of course, 17 suddenly gets a 2-C key."

Goku blocked hit's intangible blasts with his hands in their rematch, and also with generic ki blasts. Jiren blocked it with his bare hands. It can be blocked. The only logical assumptions that can be made are people with ki and proper strength can block it, as the ability goes through inanimate objects.

"I also don't see the point in bringing up Dyspo's Maximum Light Speed Mode. It's not like 17 ever beat Dyspo in that form"

17 never fought Dyspo.

 

[GyroNutz]

First, I'd like to cover this. Jiren weakened after his beatdown from MUI Goku being weaker than suppressed-yet-stronger-than-infinite-zamasu Jiren isn't just a headcanon at this point. I believe I've said this before, but Golden Frieza was as powerful as SSB Goku pre-tournament of power, and has had no reason to get, say, 20x more powerful than before, let alone more than that. The fact that Golden Frieza, who wasn't exactly in top condition himself, was able to pressure this Jiren shows that this Jiren is weaker than the Jiren that Hit and UI omen Goku fought.

"After Goku started destroying Jiren and attacked his ideals of friendship, Goku destroyed him and Jiren pretty much begged to be finished off. That's Jiren's strength being shattered."

Frieza specifically says 'what happened to your usual poker face?' before saying how Jiren's strength had been shattered. The enraged, full power Jiren who fought MUI Goku certainly did not carry a poker face.

"Vegeta didn't try to adapt, the whole time he thought Hit had super speed with weak strikes, he never came close to figuring time-skip out, much less adapting to it."

His fighting style clearly changed from straight offense to baiting and grabbing Hit's blows to get a counter attack. He tried to adapt, but since he didn't understand the technique, he couldn't adapt. Therefore, since he didn't know how time-skip worked, he couldn't just adapt to it, just like how 17 with no knowledge of Hit's abilities wouldn't be able to adapt to it either.

Here's the statement that Goku said. He explicitly states how the King said that Hit jumped in time, rather than some vague teleportation or appearing + reappearing.

"That's exactly what it means. Gohan fought Goku at SS2 and told him to use full strength, then he turned SSB and Gohan still told him to use full strength, so Goku used kaioken. Calling a secret technique a last resort doesn't change that he was holding back."

So in all of their fights, Hit was holding back against Goku (on earth; he was undeniably holding back in the tournament) because he never used the time cage; his last resort technique. Besides, if Dyspo could have used his last resort technique, he would have.

I've already debunked 17 being on par with SSBx20 Goku and SSBB Vegeta when fighting Jiren; everything apart from his sneak attack shows that he didn't have a single chance at beating Jiren, but rather, he was trying to buy time. He was quickly dispatched and knocked out for the remainder of Vegeta and Goku's struggles/fights against Jiren until practically the last minute of the tournament afterwards.

I don't really think that Hit is stronger than 17 in terms of AP. However, we've seen Hit self-improve to match and overpower foes over 10x stronger than him. This, along with his hax, gives him the edge. Can someone get a vote count on this; it was unanimously 7-0 in favour of Hit at one point, and I've counted:

Hit: 10

17: 6 (possibly 5)

Incon: 2

 

[Golden_Void]

"Jiren weakened after his beatdown from MUI Goku being weaker than suppressed-yet-stronger-than-infinite-zamasu Jiren isn't just a headcanon at this point.I believe I've said this before, but Golden Frieza was as powerful as SSB Goku pre-tournament of power, and has had no reason to get, say, 20x more powerful than before, let alone more than that. The fact that Golden Frieza, who wasn't exactly in top condition himself, was able to pressure this Jiren shows that this Jiren is weaker than the Jiren that Hit and UI omen Goku fought."

Yes it is. If there was evidence saying Jiren was as weak as his first match in the tournament you'd have posted it.

1. Frieza is a prodigy and gets very strong with very little training or effort. 2. Goku stated everyone has broken past their limits. Why don't you bring up how Vegeta's only noteworthy solo opponent was Toppo, they barely fought, yet his new form makes him comparable to SSBKKx20 Goku after he broke his own limits and achieved UI twice? Actually, don't.

"Frieza specifically says 'what happened to your usual poker face?' before saying how Jiren's strength had been shattered. The enraged, full power Jiren who fought MUI Goku certainly did not carry a poker face."

Before Goku got mad he did. Or do you expect people to be stone-faced while fighting? Also cherry picking one statement from many others doesn't prove your point.

"His fighting style clearly changed from straight offense to baiting and grabbing Hit's blows to get a counter attack. He tried to adapt, but since he didn't understand the technique, he couldn't adapt. Therefore, since he didn't know how time-skip worked, he couldn't just adapt to it, just like how 17 with no knowledge of Hit's abilities wouldn't be able to adapt to it either.

Here's the statement that Goku said. He explicitly states how the King said that Hit jumped in time, rather than some vague teleportation or appearing + reappearing."

1. So you admit what you said was false since you just clearly contradicted yourself?

2. 17 not adapting because Vegeta couldn't is an association fallacy. Jiren did, Dyspo did. Goku said he wouldn't have been able to figure it out without help, but that's his personal experience and doesn't affect anybody else. 17 has proven himself to be more analytical and tactical than most of the names mentioned anyway.

"So in all of their fights, Hit was holding back against Goku (on earth; he was undeniably holding back in the tournament) because he never used the time cage; his last resort technique. Besides, if Dyspo could have used his last resort technique, he would have."

Regardless of what techniques he used, he was definitely holding back on Earth.

Vados: He must really be enjoying his fight with Goku. It's like watching the martial arts tournament. He's not the assassin Hit right now, he's a martial artist.

"Besides, if Dyspo could have used his last resort technique, he would have."

Why do you keep repeating this? Nothing implies he couldn't power up. Are you also suggesting Goku didn't use SSB+KK and one-shot Dyspo because he couldn't?

"I've already debunked 17 being on par with SSBx20 Goku and SSBB Vegeta when fighting Jiren; everything apart from his sneak attack shows that he didn't have a single chance at beating Jiren, but rather, he was trying to buy time. He was quickly dispatched and knocked out for the remainder of Vegeta and Goku's struggles/fights against Jiren until practically the last minute of the tournament afterwards."

No you didn't, and if anything there's more evidence of the opposite. Goku actually says he's impressive and would use 17's method of hitting Jiren where he can't block it, which is different from catching him off guard, as he doesn't have that weakness.

"I don't really think that Hit is stronger than 17 in terms of AP. However, we've seen Hit self-improve to match and overpower foes over 10x stronger than him. This, along with his hax, gives him the edge."

If Hit could NLF himself past any opponent, then Jiren would've lost to him. The facts show 17 has the AP advantage.

 

[GyroNutz]

"1. Frieza is a prodigy and gets very strong with very little training or effort. 2. Goku stated everyone has broken past their limits. Why don't you bring up how Vegeta's only noteworthy solo opponent was Toppo, they barely fought, yet his new form makes him comparable to SSBKKx20 Goku after he broke his own limits and achieved UI twice? Actually, don't."

So Frieza got way beyond 20x stronger to face a Jiren that you say is stronger than the Low 2-C Jiren? Just because a character 'breaks past their limits' doesn't mean they get unbelievably stronger to the point where they can take on low 2-Cs. And Vegeta's had waaay more noteworthy solo opponents than just Toppo. He didn't wake up the day before the tournament and become blue; he's fought enough battles to justify a new form. Don't even try to compare the two.

"Before Goku got mad he did. Or do you expect people to be stone-faced while fighting? Also cherry picking one statement from many others doesn't prove your point."

Except Jiren was 'stone-faced' while fighting. No one was a threat to him until MUI Goku, where he definitely took things seriously. And it wasn't a cherry-pick; that line gave the rest context. Yet you so conviniently decided to leave it out.

How... did I contradict myself? Vegeta didn't know what time-skip was, tried to adapt and was knocked out easily. Goku knew what time-skip was, was able to successfully adapt due to his knowledge and managed to pressure Hit.

"Why do you keep repeating this? Nothing implies he couldn't power up. Are you also suggesting Goku didn't use SSB+KK and one-shot Dyspo because he couldn't?"

I keep repeating it because you have yet to give a solid argument against it. If Dyspo could have powered up, he would have. Unless, for some reason, he wanted to get eliminated by Hit. And believe it or not; I'm not suggesting that. In Goku vs Nink (remember that guy?), Goku turned SSB in order to overpower Nink and avoid being knocked out, just like Dyspo should have done to avoid being knocked out, assuming he could. THAT'S what I'm suggesting.

"No you didn't, and if anything there's more evidence of the opposite. Goku actually says he's impressive and would use 17's method of hitting Jiren where he can't block it, which is different from catching him off guard, as he doesn't have that weakness."

...Hoo-boy. Not only is 'immunity to being caught off guard' a massive NLF, but I've disproved that point several times. Most fighters, like Hit, give off energy. Other people can sense that energy. 17 however does not give off energy, and so he couldn't be sensed. Jiren even implicitly says he was caught off guard the first time. The vast majority of DBS watchers agreed it was a sneak attack, which is also why when Jiren started focusing 17, neither Goku nor Vegeta were able to 'hit him where he can't block it'.

"If Hit could NLF himself past any opponent, then Jiren would've lost to him. The facts show 17 has the AP advantage."

...and this rebukes my statement how? I admitted 17 was stronger than Hit in terms of AP. I explained why Hit couldn't self-improve to beat Jiren - the difference in power was far greater than around 10x. However here, the difference in power isn't nearly as great as the difference in power between supressed Jiren and Hit. 17 has no prior knowledge of Hit's abilities, so Hit has the edge there too by taking initiative. Therefore, via self-improving and taking initiative, Hit takes this fight. Hopefully I've proven everything I set out to. If there's no problem in the voting tallies I did in my last post this should be closed soon.

 

[Golden_Void]

"So Frieza got way beyond 20x stronger to face a Jiren that you say is stronger than the Low 2-C Jiren? Just because a character 'breaks past their limits' doesn't mean they get unbelievably stronger to the point where they can take on low 2-Cs. And Vegeta's had waaay more noteworthy solo opponents than just Toppo. He didn't wake up the day before the tournament and become blue; he's fought enough battles to justify a new form. Don't even try to compare the two."

Vegeta's only blue level opponents were the combined trio attack (shared feat), Anilaza (shared feat), and Toppo (their fight didn't finish). Yet he gets a form that blows every jump in power out of the water up until that point. Who he fought in the past doesn't matter, that's entirely irrelevant.

"Except Jiren was 'stone-faced' while fighting. No one was a threat to him until MUI Goku, where he definitely took things seriously. And it wasn't a cherry-pick; that line gave the rest context. Yet you so conviniently decided to leave it out.

How... did I contradict myself? Vegeta didn't know what time-skip was, tried to adapt and was knocked out easily. Goku knew what time-skip was, was able to successfully adapt due to his knowledge and managed to pressure Hit."

1. I can pick almost any Jiren scene and disprove this.

2. Yet Frieza's first line was the one I posted about absolute strength. Yet the rest of what Frieza said referred to MUI Goku vs Jiren.

"Goku knew what time-skip was, was able to successfully adapt due to his knowledge and managed to pressure Hit."

Anyone at the U6 tournament were the only ones with actual knowledge. Everyone else just saw it and fought against it.

"I keep repeating it because you have yet to give a solid argument against it. If Dyspo could have powered up, he would have. Unless, for some reason, he wanted to get eliminated by Hit. And believe it or not; I'm not suggesting that. In Goku vs Nink (remember that guy?), Goku turned SSB in order to overpower Nink and avoid being knocked out, just like Dyspo should have done to avoid being knocked out, assuming he could. THAT'S what I'm suggesting."

Prove that he couldn't use the form, otherwise that's just more headcanon. The writing of the story doesn't give you room for fantasy. Could Jiren not power up and solo the entire tournament? Nope, nothing says he couldn't, but the writing restricts it from happening.

"...Hoo-boy. Not only is 'immunity to being caught off guard' a massive NLF, but I've disproved that point several times. Most fighters, like Hit, give off energy. Other people can sense that energy. 17 however does not give off energy, and so he couldn't be sensed. Jiren even implicitly says he was caught off guard the first time. The vast majority of DBS watchers agreed it was a sneak attack, which is also why when Jiren started focusing 17, neither Goku nor Vegeta were able to 'hit him where he can't block it'. "

Vados said he's not off-guard after finishing an opponent (think Goku getting shot with a laser), not that he's never off-guard. Your claim takes the entire statement out of context and blows it up to wild proportions. You use 17s energy not being sensed as a cop-out yet he only caught Jiren from behind once. With that logic Jiren should've been fearful that 17 would toss a ki blast at the side of his head every waking moment.

This is what Goku says. Jiren implies that will never happen a second time. Which is why he tries to stop 17s attack before it goes off, as that was a direct-impact shot which he could not block. It was never stated that Jiren was off-guard, especially when he saw 17 before the damage occured.

"...and this rebukes my statement how? I admitted 17 was stronger than Hit in terms of AP. I explained why Hit couldn't self-improve to beat Jiren - the difference in power was far greater than around 10x. However here, the difference in power isn't nearly as great as the difference in power between supressed Jiren and Hit. 17 has no prior knowledge of Hit's abilities, so Hit has the edge there too by taking initiative. Therefore, via self-improving and taking initiative, Hit takes this fight. Hopefully I've proven everything I set out to. If there's no problem in the voting tallies I did in my last post this should be closed soon."

The 10x difference comes from Hit matching Goku with kaioken. But you're also implying that the difference between the Jiren Hit fought and full power Jiren is only 10 times which is blatantly false.

Anyway, I'm done with you here. Reply if you want.

 

[Zensum]

If 17 can injure Jiren he should be able to force himself out hits time hax with the way Ki works

Agree with Rice reasonings 17 FRA

 

[LordGinSama]

Rice seems to make the most sense. 17 for the reasons above.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Does anybody know the votes?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

If things have been counted correctly:

Hit: 10

17: 8 (Possibly 7)

Incon: 2

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

If 17 can injure Jiren he should be able to force himself out hits time hax with the way Ki works

We don't give out resistances like that. They have to show it. Goku surpassed Vegeta (again) but we don't grant him resistance to Absolute Zero and Void Manipulation. Beerus was stronger than Goku when Goku resisted Hit's time hax, but we don't grant Beerus that resistance.

Also, 17 didn't fight Jiren on his own. He double teamed him alongside Frieza, plus Jiren was basically at the weakest he'd been at for all of his appearences.

 

[Zensum]

We don't give out resistances like that. They have to show it. Goku surpassed Vegeta (again) but we don't grant him resistance to Absolute Zero and Void Manipulation. Beerus was stronger than Goku when Goku resisted Hit's time hax, but we don't grant Beerus that resistance.

Also, 17 didn't fight Jiren on his own. He double teamed him alongside Frieza, plus Jiren was basically at the weakest he'd been at for all of his appearences.

Higher ki obviously gives u resistences to ki based hax based on everything we've seen in DB. Jirens Ki > Hits which is why he could resist and break his time hax. 17 had the power to injure Jiren and fight him while serious and powered up even if it was double team in one instance doesnt matter. Hit power didnt even work while it was base jiren and he was barley fighting.

 

[Golden_Void]

When people think episode 131 was the only episode where 17 fought Jiren.

I'm making a blog on this.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Zensum

If we took that logic on face value, then a ton of characters in DB would have resistances that they never shown.

17 got a hit on Jiren by a sneak attack that didn't really do much.

Also, 17 fought Jiren, first, in a 3 vs. 1 with Goku and Vegeta. Then he fought a weakened and wor Jiren in a 2 vs. 1 alongside Frieza. Then that turned into a 3 vs 1 again, once Goku rejoined.

I'm sorry if I don't consider all that as widely impressive as some do.

 

[Zensum]

snip

Wym, DB chars with higher ki resist ki based hax from db chars with lower ki.

It did lasting damage something others at the time couldnt do they couldnt even scratch him. Every instance 17 fought jiren he was more powerful than him being base unpowered agaisnt hit.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

Welp, the gap is closing... (3 more votes for 17 and it'd be a tie. And just 4 more votes for Hit to win...)

I agree with TheC2 that 17 breaking out of the Cage isn't guaranteed. There's option for Self-improving for Hit, and he already proved that he can do that. But seeing Unite My Rice's reasoning.. I think I'll change my vote from Hit to 17.. for now.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Hit FRA

 

[GyroNutz]

"Vegeta's only blue level opponents were the combined trio attack (shared feat), Anilaza (shared feat), and Toppo (their fight didn't finish). Yet he gets a form that blows every jump in power out of the water up until that point. Who he fought in the past doesn't matter, that's entirely irrelevant."

Except it does matter. Saiyans get stronger by fighting and being pushed to their limits. The opponents that Vegeta fought in the past are entirely relevant, and not to mention, he was pushed to his limits in his SOLO battle against Jiren. Frieza had no reason to get significantly stronger from his battles, especially not to the point where he could pressure a casual low 2-C.

"Yet Frieza's first line was the one I posted about absolute strength. Yet the rest of what Frieza said referred to MUI Goku vs Jiren."

"It did lasting damage something others at the time couldnt do they couldnt even scratch him. Every instance 17 fought jiren he was more powerful than him being base unpowered agaisnt hit."

This is probably the third or fourth time I've had to watch this video. His first line is about Jiren's poker face and clearly refers to Jiren before getting serious, thus saying that Jiren has gotten weaker from his original supressed state. The very fact that golden frieza in his WEAKENED state was able to pressure Jiren should say something. This was already concluded in the 17/golden frieza post tournament upgrades thread, and if this Jiren was comparable to supressed Jiren at the start, we would have low 2-C 17 and golden frieza by now.

"Anyone at the U6 tournament were the only ones with actual knowledge. Everyone else just saw it and fought against it."

Riddle me this (please don't). How did Dyspo know the name of Hit's time-skip technique, and how could Hit then reply 'so you know about my time-skip' if Dyspo had no prior knowledge of it? Hit certainly doesn't go around screaming 'Time-skip' when he uses his attack, so we can infer Dyspo had prior knowledge. Though it doesn't matter since 17 neither knew of it nor saw it, and saying he saw it would be headcanon.

"Prove that he couldn't use the form, otherwise that's just more headcanon. The writing of the story doesn't give you room for fantasy. Could Jiren not power up and solo the entire tournament? Nope, nothing says he couldn't, but the writing restricts it from happening."

You're missing the entire point here. I'm not saying that whatsoever. But ok, here's an analogy.

Person A fights Person B and gets Person B in a critical situation.

Person B has another form which would mean he could stand more of a chance against Person A. Person B also doesn't want to be knocked out.

Since we know Person B doesn't want to be knocked out and the only way to avoid that is powering up. Therefore the only possible reason why he can't power up is simply that; he can't.

"Vados said he's not off-guard after finishing an opponent (think Goku getting shot with a laser), not that he's never off-guard. Your claim takes the entire statement out of context and blows it up to wild proportions."

So Jiren can get caught off guard. Glad we got that out of the way.

"You use 17s energy not being sensed as a cop-out yet he only caught Jiren from behind once. With that logic Jiren should've been fearful that 17 would toss a ki blast at the side of his head every waking moment.

So Jiren, who can react to Hit's time skip, knowingly allowed 17 to land behind him, place a hand on his back and blast him with ki? Sorry but it doesn't work like that. Had Jiren been caught off-guard this would all make sense however, and the most logical way for him to be caught off-guard is due to one of 17's distinctive features: 17's energy can't be sensed. It's not a cop-out. It's the most logical solution that most people agreed on almost straight away. He was cautious for 17 by saying that wouldn't happen a second time; 'fool me once...' etc

"The 10x difference comes from Hit matching Goku with kaioken. But you're also implying that the difference between the Jiren Hit fought and full power Jiren is only 10 times which is blatantly false."

17 isn't comparable to full powered Jiren. He isn't even comparable to SSB KKx20 Goku and SSBB Vegeta, who definitely stood more of a chance against Jiren. And the proof is in Toppo. A supressed Jiren took on both SSB KKx20 Goku and SSBB Vegeta at once without breaking a sweat. After a rage boost (which shouldn't be that significant as he still needed the big bang attack to beat Toppo) Vegeta was able to match and overpower Toppo.

Full power Jiren > Supressed Jiren > SSBB Vegeta > G.o.D. Toppo > Android 17. Leaving the others out for simplicity's sake, and G.o.D. Toppo should be a lot stronger than 17. 17 has a ways to go before being comparable to even supressed Jiren + the saiyans.

So to conclude/summarise:

1. Jiren in episode 131 was greatly weakened, to the point where a weakened Golden Frieza was able to pressure him.

2. 17's hit on Jiren was a sneak attack, and he definitely shouldn't be comparable to either of the saiyans nor a supressed Jiren.

3. Having no knowledge of Hit's time abilities is, indeed, devastating.

4. While 17 has the AP advantage, it's not significant enough to beat Hit's self improvment and Hit's hax.

 

[Golden_Void]

 

[Falcon_Brotherhood]

Just flat out me being honest Hit just wins through his time skip and intang but with very high difficutly due to the AP Advantage and unlimted stamina 17 has,

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

17 FRA

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

I'll help with the votes . 2 votes for Hit and 2 votes for 17.

Hitto : 10-1 (I changed my vote) = 9 + 2 (Iapitus the Impaler, Firestrike155) = 11

17-san : 7+2 (Lucis=the=Lumenian, TISSG7Redgrave) = 9

Incon : 2

 

[GyroNutz]

@TISSG7Redgrave

What reasons would those be?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

for rice's reasoning

 

[ZackMoon1234]

17 FRA

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Gotta admit, I haven't seen a thread quite like this since the SSBE Vegeta vs SSBKKx20 Goku thread a little ways back.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

Gotta admit, I haven't seen a thread quite like this since the SSBE Vegeta vs SSBKKx20 Goku thread a little ways back.

In what way? Length?

And considering SSBE Vegeta is quite 'new'... people must have been replying very fast.