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Amending the "1-A Without Infinite Hierarchy"-Guideline

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The hierarchy doesn't exist. The mention of the idea of one isn't the same as one existing, which was what the exception is aimed at.
Yes it does exist. It exists in mention. You're arguing semantics. The purpose of that section is that an infinite hierarchy isn't supposed to be necessary to get the tier in the first place. This would completely defeat that purpose
 
No it wouldn't, it still isn't necessary.
Yes it is lmfao. The entire point is that you (and DT) are arguing that to get a 1A tier you must explicitly mention that even an infinite number of dimensions would mean nothing to a character because of how much they transcend it. That defeats the purpose of a note that specifically addresses how a character can reach 1A without the need of an infinite hierarchy. Either way the hierarchy is a requirement, whether in the cosmology or in mention, to getting the 1A tier.
 
No it doesn't, because it allows for something to be rated 1A without being above an infinite hierarchy in the cosmology.
No it doesn't allow that because the character would still need an infinite hierarchy to scale over. It doesn't matter if it's a physical part of the cosmology. The fact is, it's still a necessity in reaching the 1A tier, meaning that the note is completely useless
 
Yes it does. That's the typical requirement that the exception is aimed at.
No it doesn't. The point is that a character transcends an infinitely layered hierarchy. Whether or not the hierarchy is hypothetical is physical doesn't matter if the character is transcendent over it.
 
But they don't, no such hierarchy exists. The point is that they would, which is true of all 1-A characters
But you're making it a requirement that this infinitely layered hierarchy is mentioned. It's physical existence in the cosmology therefore becomes irrelevant. In the end, it's still a complete requirement in order for a character/verse to be 1A. It makes it impossible for a verse lacking those such dimensions/hierarchies to reach it without having to use some unsubtle language like "even if there were infinite dimensions they'd still be nothing to this guy!" or something like that.
 
It's physical existence in the cosmology therefore becomes irrelevant
Yeah that's the whole point of having an exception.

It makes it impossible for a verse lacking those such dimensions/hierarchies to reach it without having to use some unsubtle language like "even if there were infinite dimensions they'd still be nothing to this guy!" or something like that.
Yep you got it, that is correct.
 
Now, the thing regarding "If you were to shove the more concepts of higher time and space dimensions at the Overvoid, they would just get lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Ultimate concept that is the Overvoid" is probably the crux of the matter. Thing is, conceptual erasure of space dimensions is also bound to NLF. Just because you can conceptually erase dimensions, does not imply that you can do so for any number of them. We have long since abandoned any idea of concepts inherently being above dimensions of any number and things like that.

Hence, the Overvoid being able to conceptually erase any dimensions put into it only matters to the extent as the verse has mentioned to have dimensions. There is little reason to assume that a theoretical space that might be "bigger" than the Overvoid, so big that it could enclose it, would get erased by it, no?

But think again about what this conversation was about. I said there is no evidence that the Overvoid could erase something bigger than it. To which you countered, that there is nothing bigger. So, my counter that in other verses there can be something bigger makes sense, no? Because we are talking about which AP ranking it should have, which is a stat that compares different fictions. So the question is "Is its AP equivalent to that of something that can erase something bigger than all we know to exist in DC?" and the answer is "no", because it has no evidence that it could erase something that is bigger than what we know it to be nor do we know that it is infinite levels of infinity bigger.
Those two arguments only work when operating under the assumption that it makes sense to consider something that's above and outside dimensions as just being equivalent to one dimension higher than whatever is in the setting of the verse, to begin with (In other words, that a theoretical space of 2 dimensions more than whatever is in DC could actually be said to be bigger than the Overvoid, to draw from the specific example here, though bear in mind I don't particularly care about it. I'm interested in the general case), which I'd contest pretty heavily, myself. For that I point you to my post here.

Honestly I was warry of actually bringing that discussion to this thread, but then I realized how directly adjacent the two topics are, since your proposal would imply that just being above dimensionality is not enough unless the verse also establishes the character in question is also above an infinite amount of theoretical dimensions. So, I might as well address that issue here. No point in getting this thread accepted if it'll just get contested immediately after, anyway.
 
Those two arguments only work when operating under the assumption that it makes sense to consider something that's above and outside dimensions as just being equivalent to one dimension higher than whatever is in the setting of the verse
Well, I think this is the natural obstacle of a system which attempts to serve two masters simultaneously. At the higher levels, dimensional tiering is the primary basis of our tiering system.

We generally do not regard concepts as being automatically 1-A, but this causes quite a bit of intuitional friction. For example, if a conceptual being transcends spacetime in a verse that is -- as far as we can tell -- otherwise an entirely normal universe with no multiple timelines, dimensions, universes, et cetera, we generally do not tier that being as though they'd be above an infinite dimensional infinite multiverse with infinite timelines.

However, if you really think about it, the idea that a conceptual being that transcends a 4-D spacetime would somehow... not do that if a single spatial dimension is added does seem a bit weird. This is counter-intuitive, but it's the compromise we have to make if we want to have a dimensional tiering system that doesn't treat every single conceptual entity as an Azathoth-esque supergod that can destroy infinite multiverses at will.

So generally, we scale conceptual beings to the cosmologies and constructs that they transcend. The exception we are discussing is how we get there for beings who do not have an infinite hierarchy in their verse and how they could ever reach those heights. On this subject, I strongly agree with DT. It would and should require some pretty specific evidence to reach such a conclusion, because being conceptual or even super-conceptual (like some kind of all-concept being or concept-transcending being) should not confer 1-A. I'd weep to see something like "beyond the concept of dimensions" (an entirely incoherent phrase) justified for such a high tier when really what we have is a run of the mill "Concept+" in a normal verse being tiered well beyond their capabilities due to the disjointed relationship between dimensions and concepts, and the inherent difficulty in reconciling them in the same tiering system across multiple fictions that treat them all quite differently.
 
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Yeah, I have heard arguments about "Transcending the entire concept of space, time, and dimension" defaulting to a 1-A statement, but have always found that too assumptive. It can, but not always and really should have Low 1-C be a safer standard assumption. Though, some characters have gotten 1-A via conceptual statements combined with there existing 1-B minimum structures.
 
Yeah, I have heard arguments about "Transcending the entire concept of space, time, and dimension" defaulting to a 1-A statement, but have always found that too assumptive. It can, but not always and really should have Low 1-C be a safer standard assumption. Though, some characters have gotten 1-A via conceptual statements combined with there existing 1-B minimum structures.
Fair enough I suppose, but I don't think it's just a case of "bigger than the concept of dimensions" and getting 1A. I think there's definitely more evidence required to show that it's a legit thing, but maybe I'm wrong.
 
@DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Qawsedf234

If the minimum for 1-A is superiority to the concept of an existing/hypothetical infinite hierarchy, would we consider the superiority to the concept of an existing/hypothetical finite hierarchy as Low 1-A?

 
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@DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Qawsedf234

If the minimum for 1-A is superiority to the concept of an existing/hypothetical infinite hierarchy, would we consider the superiority to the concept of an existing/hypothetical finite hierarchy as Low 1-A?

This is being discussed at https://vsbattles.com/threads/low-1-a-wiki-wide-tiering-revision-beyond-dimensions.151894/, so we should probably finish that discussion first.
 
@DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Qawsedf234

If the minimum for 1-A is superiority to the concept of an existing/hypothetical infinite hierarchy, would we consider the superiority to the concept of an existing/hypothetical finite hierarchy as Low 1-A?

That would be the size of the hierarchy +1 level of infinity. Like, being qualitatively superior to a 10D hierarchy would make you 11D level.
 
That would be the size of the hierarchy +1 level of infinity. Like, being qualitatively superior to a 10D hierarchy would make you 11D level.
I see.

Should we put this thread on hold until the other Tier 1 thread is concluded?

The 1-A requirements seem to be moving to Low 1-A.
 
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I think we can handle this first? Like, the main takeaway from this is that without more explicit mentioned, being above a few levels being added is those level + 1 level of infinity.
I think we can add the note and then take care of the other thing.

This just seems much easier to conclude. Got a lot of agreement already. So I think we may as well finish this first, then the other thing.
 
I think we can handle this first? Like, the main takeaway from this is that without more explicit mentioned, being above a few levels being added is those level + 1 level of infinity.
I think we can add the note and then take care of the other thing.

This just seems much easier to conclude. Got a lot of agreement already. So I think we may as well finish this first, then the other thing.
This thread can be concluded first, but the 1-A in the note you're proposing will be changed to Low 1-A if the other thread gets accepted afterwards. Anyway, how much more consensus is needed before you can apply this change?
 
I don't have any issues with the requirements themselves.

I just have questions regarding applications and examples.

In a similar manner to DC's Overvoid, would Fate's Root also be relegated to 1-C since there is no actual/hypothetical infinite heiarchy?
 
Well, I don't know Fate, so I can't answer that.
Well, based on the stuff below from the profile, what are your initial impressions?
  • Is the "Spiral of Origin", the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed. Controls
  • Exists at the summit of all dimensional theories, existing independently of it's definitions.
  • It is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition
From what was said earlier in the thread, I would assume it doesn't meet the requirement like the Overvoid. You would need a blatant statement like "even if there were infinite dimensions they'd still be nothing to this guy." Being at the summit of all dimensional theories would also be scrutinized for NLF. As far as I know, they only describe/portray up to 8 dimensions in the series.
 
Well, based on the stuff below from the profile, what are your initial impressions?
  • Is the "Spiral of Origin", the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed. Controls
  • Exists at the summit of all dimensional theories, existing independently of it's definitions.
  • It is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition
From what was said earlier in the thread, I would assume it doesn't meet the requirement like the Overvoid. You would need a blatant statement like "even if there were infinite dimensions they'd still be nothing to this guy." Being at the summit of all dimensional theories would also be scrutinized for NLF. As far as I know, they only describe/portray up to 8 dimensions in the series.
If one statement is "above all dimensional theories", then one could look into what kind of dimensional theories are mentioned in the verse. If one with infinite dimensions is mentioned, one can debate if it gets such a tier.
But if all theories mentioned are at best 8D and otherwise there also exists nothing larger than 8D space in the verse, it might be 9D-level.

But yeah, take that as just a first impression.
 
Well, based on the stuff below from the profile, what are your initial impressions?
  • Is the "Spiral of Origin", the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed. Controls
  • Exists at the summit of all dimensional theories, existing independently of it's definitions.
  • It is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition
From what was said earlier in the thread, I would assume it doesn't meet the requirement like the Overvoid. You would need a blatant statement like "even if there were infinite dimensions they'd still be nothing to this guy." Being at the summit of all dimensional theories would also be scrutinized for NLF. As far as I know, they only describe/portray up to 8 dimensions in the series.
If one statement is "above all dimensional theories", then one could look into what kind of dimensional theories are mentioned in the verse. If one with infinite dimensions is mentioned, one can debate if it gets such a tier.
But if all theories mentioned are at best 8D and otherwise there also exists nothing larger than 8D space in the verse, it might be 9D-level.

But yeah, take that as just a first impression.
神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。

あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。
According to occultism, there is a "power" that is at the top of the dimensional theory outside this world.

Coordinates at which all events originate. That is the 'Vortex of Root', the long-cherished wish of all mages... the place of God who can record everything in this world and create everything in this world, the beginning and the end of all things.
Oh I have seen some translation saying just dimensional theory of the world not all Dimensional Theories. Offical translation also doesn't states all dimensional theories. Its fan translation that's states all dimensional theories. So it should be evaluated if this thread gets passed.
Thank you for the clarification. As you said, a deeper discussion will be in a different thread.
 
If one statement is "above all dimensional theories", then one could look into what kind of dimensional theories are mentioned in the verse. If one with infinite dimensions is mentioned, one can debate if it gets such a tier.
But if all theories mentioned are at best 8D and otherwise there also exists nothing larger than 8D space in the verse, it might be 9D-level.

But yeah, take that as just a first impression.
infinite dimensions exist theoretically, as hilbert spaces and quantum multiverses exist, but im not sure how that applies.
infinite layered concepts may also exist, but the crt i made got closed before i could finish the agrument
 
(We have already higher dimmension than 8D).
But in term of description we have that the root is antonymic to the concept of infinity. Where the concept of infinity is twinned with the concept of finite existence, compared to the root.

That is doesn't exist infinite without finite, only ends. And that the only denial of the end is the true nothingness of the root
Thank you for the input, but a deeper discussion will be in a different thread.
 
infinite dimensions exist theoretically, as hilbert spaces and quantum multiverses exist, but im not sure how that applies.
infinite layered concepts may also exist, but the crt i made got closed before i could finish the agrument.
Those are simply theories, you need to elaborate them in verse (for canonicity reasons)

Distinguishing between mentioning a theory and expounding upon it in verse is significant. This differentiation exists for a valid purpose. To illustrate, the Many-Worlds Interpretation (MWI) can potentially be extended to high 1-B. However, in the context of Arceus's verse, the theory is not only mentioned but also elaborated upon and taken to the level of 2-A.
 
I performed the edit.

Can this be closed?
 
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