Amending the "1-A Without Infinite Hierarchy"-Guideline

[Firestorm808]

I literally said that.

Ah, sorry. Didn't see.

 

[Deagonx]

But there is no space bigger than the Overvoid

Not in DC, no, but could there be? Being the biggest space in a certain verse doesn't mean it's the biggest possible space

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still have trouble trying to comprehend the 1-A and above criteria; however, I suppose the wording in the OP will suffice.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Not in DC, no, but could there be?

Firestorm was asking if the Overvoid qualifies for this rule, where even if the main multiverse isn't High 1-B that it would still qualify for 1-A. My point is that it does. There's nothing physically greater than the Overvoid and everything that exists in the Overvoid are small insignificant fractions of items that get swallowed by the blank canvas. It almost a text book example of this portion of the FAQ

For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.

Being the biggest space in a certain verse doesn't mean it's the biggest possible space

Yes, just being bigger wouldn't warrant a 1-A rating. But the Overvoid isn't just bigger for DC.

 

[Deagonx]

Well the key phrase isn't simply that it's a background canvas, but one into which "any amount of layers could be added." Not any background canvas has such a quality

 

[Qawsedf234]

Not any background canvas has such a quality

Not every canvas does, but the Overvoid is an exception. Which is what Firestorm was asking about.

 

[Deagonx]

I think DT's point is that the manner in which it is being suggested that the Overvoid is an exception may not be sound, which I agree with personally.

 

[DontTalkDT]

But there is no space bigger than the Overvoid, its the outside blank page that DC is drawn on. It the canvas reality is just a minor stain in. It fits the current FAQ justification in a straight forward manner.

That's just relying on the lack of a counter-example. That there is no bigger space in DC, doesn't imply that there is no bigger space in other fictional works. Being the "biggest" is only relevant up to the size of things that actually exist in a fiction.

Firestorm was asking if the Overvoid qualifies for this rule, where even if the main multiverse isn't High 1-B that it would still qualify for 1-A. My point is that it does. There's nothing physically greater than the Overvoid and everything that exists in the Overvoid are small insignificant fractions of items that get swallowed by the blank canvas. It almost a text book example of this portion of the FAQ

Read that portion very closely. It specifies it must be a background where any amount of layers can be inserted without making a difference. From what I have seen some layers can be inserted without making a difference, but I have seen no explanation that explicitly states that any amount (i.e. including infinite ones) makes no difference.

But your example is bad, because it already has a high 1-B hierarchy – within the verse as I already said this in my post.

The reasoning in no way whatsoever dependend on the existence of that hierarchy, though. So I fail to see how that matters.

Also, exactly, if it makes no sense to upgrade a character without any “infinite hierarchy”,
then remove the note completely because as far as I can tell, the note and the title don't match at all.

But you can without an infinite hierarchy. As said, none has to exist, but you need some explicit evidence that you are greater than that. The title is about how to be 1-A without a hierarchy actually existing. It doesn't say you can be such without any evidence that your power is greater than that.

You are saying to use the rule: regarding reaching 1-A without having an actual infinite hierarchy one needs to prove the verse has an infinite hierarchy?

Isn't that contradictory?

No, I am saying no such thing.

A statement like "If there would be infinite levels of infinity, he would still be more powerful than all of them" does not indicate the existence of an actual infinite hierarchy. It could be there there is no such thing in the verse. The statement doesn't say that it does. However, what the statement does specify is that the character is powerful enough to be of equal standing to a character from another verse where such a thing exists and that is more powerful than the hierarchy.

So, we have a character from a verse that has no infinite hierarchy but that has a character specifically powerful enough to still qualify for a rating above such a thing.

Again, to make this abundantly clear, you could have a statement that says: "If infinite levels of R>F transcendence existed, this character would see all of them as fiction. However, none such levels do actually exist. No infinite hierarchy of any kind exists." This would still qualify for a 1-A upgrade, despite the statement explicitly saying the verse has no such hierarchy. Why? Because it still is specific about the fact that it is above such a thing.

 

[Tarang123]

A statement like "If there would be infinite levels of infinity, he would still be more powerful than all of them" does not indicate the existence of an actual infinite hierarchy. It could be there there is no such thing in the verse. The statement doesn't say that it does. However, what the statement does specify is that the character is powerful enough to be of equal standing to a character from another verse where such a thing exists and that is more powerful than the hierarchy.

That still requires the existence of an infinite hierarchy. It may not be a physical part of the cosmology, but it is a required part of the 1A rating, which defeats the point of the note.

 

[Deagonx]

That still requires the existence of an infinite hierarchy.

No, it very explicitly doesn't.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The example is being dependent on the existence of high 1-B or not does not refute the already hierarchy existence in verse which in fact, the staff member asked for example where there is no already infinite hierarchy

but you need some explicit evidence that you are greater than that. The title is about how to be 1-A without a hierarchy actually existing. It doesn't say you can be such without any evidence that your power is greater than that.

"That" in your sentence refers to "the hierarchy", so again, I don't see how the requirement would work in any way.

Mind share me other examples?

 

[Tarang123]

No, it very explicitly doesn't.

Yes it does. Whether or not the hierarchy is a part of the cosmology or is just mentioned, an infinite hierarchy is key to a verse getting 1A, which goes against the purpose of getting 1A without something like that

 

[Deagonx]

Whether or not the hierarchy is a part of the cosmology or is just mentioned, an infinite hierarchy is key to a verse getting 1A, which goes against the purpose of getting 1A without something like that

That hierarchy isn't present in the verse, which means it doesn't exist.

It does not go against the purpose, you have misunderstood the purpose. We need concrete information that would place a character above such a hierarchy, even if one is not present in the verse. This is how that would happen. It's more or less the only way it could happen that wouldn't be an NLF

 

[Qawsedf234]

That there is no bigger space in DC, doesn't imply that there is no bigger space in other fictional works

I was only talking about DC and no other verse, because Firestorm was specifically asking about DC and not another verse.

. From what I have seen some layers can be inserted without making a difference, but I have seen no explanation that explicitly states that any amount (i.e. including infinite ones) makes no difference.

The main multiverse can contain those ideas and more importantly beings that exist on conceptual levels and beyond the frames of the conventional multiverse are insignificant compared to the Overvoid and are destroyed when they fall into it. Which is why the Overvoid got 1-A and eventually High 1-A in the first place.

 

[Tarang123]

That hierarchy isn't present in the verse, which means it doesn't exist.

It does not go against the purpose, you have misunderstood the purpose. We need concrete information that would place a character above such a hierarchy, even if one is not present in the verse. This is how that would happen. It's more or less the only way it could happen that wouldn't be an NLF

That isn’t the point tho. The point is that you should be able to reach 1A without the existence of a hierarchy like that. By your logic, you still need it, even by mention

 

[Deagonx]

beings that exist on conceptual levels and beyond the frames of the conventional multiverse are insignificant compared to the Overvoid and are destroyed when they fall into it.

This isn't always true, though. There's one instance of someone being destroyed in the Overvoid, and the author implies that was an intentional act. We have many many instances of characters interacting with or traversing the Overvoid wherein they are not destroyed.

That isn’t the point tho. The point is that you should be able to reach 1A without the existence of a hierarchy like that. By your logic, you still need it, even by mention

The hierarchy doesn't exist. The mention of the idea of one isn't the same as one existing, which was what the exception is aimed at.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The hierarchy doesn't exist. The mention of the idea of one isn't the same as one existing, which was what the exception is aimed at.

Nothing cannot exist because to speak of something is to speak of something that exists. So alone the mention indicates it's existence.

 

[Deagonx]

Nothing cannot exist because to speak of something is to speak of something that exists. So alone the mention indicates it's existence.

That's nonsensical.

 

[Qawsedf234]

We have many many instances of characters interacting with or traversing the Overvoid wherein they are not destroyed.

But they're still fractions on it and insignificant fractions at that. Everything that is within it amounts to 0 which includes creation and those part of creation. The Overvoid is a direct example of this 1-A concept in scale, which is how it got 1-A and High 1-A before.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It's a fact. Beside the point, is there any fictional work that works on this note's possibility.?

 

[Deagonx]

But they're still fractions on it and insignificant fractions at that. Everything that is within it amounts to 0 which includes creation and those part of creation.

Right, but to DT's point, this would still be the case even if it were a single level of infinity higher.

 

[Deagonx]

It's a fact.

Please don't even participate in this thread if you're going to say things such as "the very mention of something indicates its existence."

 

[Qawsedf234]

Right, but to DT's point, this would still be the case even if it were a single level of infinity higher.

I get that not every void qualifies, because most don't. What I said to Firestorm was that the Overvoid does qualify because it has that level of evidence.

Please don't even participate in this thread if you're going to say things such as "the very mention of something indicates its existence."

Well it can work if that work uses that theology as an operating basis (for example, Negative Theology for the Root). But it wouldn't be the default site wide or anything.

 

[Deagonx]

I get that not every void qualifies, because most don't. What I said to Firestorm was that the Overvoid does qualify because it has that level of evidence.

Well, based on what evidence do we think that?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Please don't even participate in this thread if you're going to say things such as "the very mention of something indicates its existence."

But you did not refute his point by saying that the mention of said concept or idea does not necessarily exist within the verse.

You need also to send the evidence to support this claim.

Also, I am still requesting examples of fictional work that has those type of setting because in my perspective, I don't see the need of note that does not match with fictional setting

 

[Deagonx]

But you did not refute his point by saying that the mention of said concept or idea does not necessarily exist within the verse.

The claim was that the policy refutes the purpose of the exception, but it does not, because it allows for a character to be rated as transcending an infinite hierarchy without the verse having one. Your claim, that the mention of one is indicative of it's existence, is illogical.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, based on what evidence do we think that?

• Infinite Multiverses of creation exists in the Overvoid but occupy 0 actual space
• A focal point that determines how existence operates like Yggdrasil still a 0 space within the Overvoid
• The Source Wall is beyond all space and time and "Spans all dimensions" but still doesn't exist in the Overvoid as a notable thing
• The Sixth Dimension is described as being beyond all imagination
• Lucifer in the Overvoid witnesses dozens of alternate creations exist and then collapse before his eyes within the Void
• All creation returns to the Overvoid once it ends

Overall, even without scaling to the Endless or Lucifier the Overvoid would still be 1-A on its own for the reasons mentioned in the FAQ.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Deagnox, can you present those examples if my claim is illogical or even an evidence to support yours?

Due to the inherent inclusivity of notes, the introduction of an additional notation may be deemed superfluous; however, it should be noted that the aforementioned notation carries with it a mandatory requirement for the explicit mention of a hierarchical structure.

 

[Deagonx]

Infinite Multiverses of creation exists in the Overvoid but occupy 0 actual space

This would also be true with a single level of transcendence, right?

A focal point that determines how existence operates like Yggdrasil still a 0 space within the Overvoid

I'm not entirely sure how this supports transcendence infinite dimensionality

The Source Wall is beyond all space and time and "Spans all dimensions" but still doesn't exist in the Overvoid as a notable thing

Well space and time are just 4D, and "all dimensions" could simply refer to the dimensions existent within DC, so this would still be accomplished with the Overvoid being 1 level up.

The Sixth Dimension is described as being beyond all imagination

I don't believe a phrase like that should be used for 1-A, it doesn't really mean anything.

Lucifer in the Overvoid witnesses dozens of alternate creations exist and then collapse before his eyes within the Void

I'm also not sure how this related to infinite dimensionality

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I strongly agree with DontTalkDT and Deagonx here, and the arguments made against them are so obscenely absurd that it hurts my brain to think about.

Nothing cannot exist because to speak of something is to speak of something that exists. So alone the mention indicates it's existence.

This is one of the most ridiculous sentences I've ever read. Let me state the obvious out loud:

We can speak about things that do not exist.

Unicorns do not exist, but if they did, I would like to own one.

 

[Firestorm808]

An infinite hierarchy needs to be mentioned by the franchise in the hypothetical sense?

 

[Qawsedf234]

This would also be true with a single level of transcendence, right?

A single layer of transcendence wouldn't occupy 0 space, just an smaller fraction

I'm not entirely sure how this supports transcendence infinite dimensionality

Because The World Tree governs and dictates how reality is structed and is able to change how it operates. If it can do that but still fail to make anything that can go beyond the Source Wall or Overvoid it can never reach it.

Well space and time are just 4D, and "all dimensions" could simply refer to the dimensions existent within DC, so this would still be accomplished with the Overvoid being 1 level up.

Space is 4D but time isn't a direction, it's a measurement of progression. We default to time being 4D, but time can be independent of any dimensions or every dimension can have it's own temporal direction.

I don't believe a phrase like that should be used for 1-A, it doesn't really mean anything.

On it's own no, but in DC the 5th Dimension is pure imagination where characters can freely alter and adjust realms of space below them. But the 6th dimension is untouchable to them.

I'm also not sure how this related to infinite dimensionality

Because other multiverses and other points of creation that can have any size still don't occupy any space within the Overvoid and are consumed by it.

 

[ImmortalDread]

An infinite hierarchy needs to be mentioned by the franchise in the hypothetical sense?

Yes.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The example is being dependent on the existence of high 1-B or not does not refute the already hierarchy existence in verse which in fact, the staff member asked for example where there is no already infinite hierarchy

An example can be theoretical. Whether any verse actually relies on it, is of no consequence to anything.

"That" in your sentence refers to "the hierarchy", so again, I don't see how the requirement would work in any way.

Mind share me other examples?

No "that" refers to "the power equivalent to that necessary to destroy an infinite hierarchy" or "being 1-A" if you so want. And I already gave several theoretical examples.

I was only talking about DC and no other verse, because Firestorm was specifically asking about DC and not another verse.

Yeah, I get that.

But think again about what this conversation was about. I said there is no evidence that the Overvoid could erase something bigger than it. To which you countered, that there is nothing bigger. So, my counter that in other verses there can be something bigger makes sense, no? Because we are talking about which AP ranking it should have, which is a stat that compares different fictions. So the question is "Is its AP equivalent to that of something that can erase something bigger than all we know to exist in DC?" and the answer is "no", because it has no evidence that it could erase something that is bigger than what we know it to be nor do we know that it is infinite levels of infinity bigger.

The main multiverse can contain those ideas and more importantly beings that exist on conceptual levels and beyond the frames of the conventional multiverse are insignificant compared to the Overvoid and are destroyed when they fall into it. Which is why the Overvoid got 1-A and eventually High 1-A in the first place.

I know Tier 10-C characters that exist at a conceptual level, so I don't know why this keeps getting brought up like it has relevance. Existing beyond the multiverse and the multiverse being insignificant to the Overvoid, is a great feat for the Overvoid to be "Level of the multiverse"+1 level of infinity. I don't see why it would be a feat of being "Level of the multiverse" + infinite levels of infinity that are never mentioned.

Nothing cannot exist because to speak of something is to speak of something that exists. So alone the mention indicates it's existence.

WTF, then all lies would be real and every theory true.

• Infinite Multiverses of creation exists in the Overvoid but occupy 0 actual space
• A focal point that determines how existence operates like Yggdrasil still a 0 space within the Overvoid
• The Source Wall is beyond all space and time and "Spans all dimensions" but still doesn't exist in the Overvoid as a notable thing
• The Sixth Dimension is described as being beyond all imagination
• Lucifer in the Overvoid witnesses dozens of alternate creations exist and then collapse before his eyes within the Void
• All creation returns to the Overvoid once it ends

Overall, even without scaling to the Endless or Lucifier the Overvoid would still be 1-A on its own for the reasons mentioned in the FAQ.

Being 1 level of infinity above all of that combined should be enough to match those feats in nature. Like, if you are 1 level of infinity above it all, then it would all appear like 0, because 1/infinity = 0 (in some sense, at least).

Also, I am still requesting examples of fictional work that has those type of setting because in my perspective, I don't see the need of note that does not match with fictional setting

If we don't mention the exception is allowed, then we also won't ever have any, because nobody would know it's allowed. And just because I don't know one, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If we had this rules just for 2 verses or something, then we could just put it into the verse explanations. But we don't.

An infinite hierarchy needs to be mentioned by the franchise in the hypothetical sense?

Yeah, something like that.

Could be a hierarchy of dimensions, R>F or even just power. I believe (until recently) Isekai at Peace used a hierarchy of various levels of omnipotence as reasoning. Given, I don't know the verse, so I won't put my hand in fire for that.

Like, ultimately, if nothing hints at infinite levels of infinity, proving them is probably impossible, no?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Because we are talking about which AP ranking it should have, which is a stat that compares different fictions. So the question is "Is it's AP equivalent to that of something that can erase something bigger than all we know to exist in DC?" and the answer is "no", because it has no evidence that it could erase something that is bigger than what we know it to be.

The Overvoid contains everything and everyone. The one thing it doesn't contain is itself and what we call the Divine Presence that it's a part of. The same presence that no one else in universe can properly comprehend. There's no character in DC that the Overvoid isn't bigger than or above other than itself.

. I don't see why it would be a feat of being "Level of the multiverse" + infinite levels of infinity that are never mentioned.

Because the multiverse can be expanded or built upon in different levels or states and none of it can reach the Overvoid.

Being 1 level of infinity above all of that combined should be enough to match those feats in nature.

It wouldn't, because the stuff in the layers below the Overvoid can be changed, expanded or layered upon and still not reach it. Which was my point to Firestorm. That sort of thing is what qualifies something for 1-A without having a High 1-B or Low 1-A hierarchy.

This isn't just "multiverse+1" it's "multiverse + any hierarchy + mortal comprehension is still below the Overvoid"

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The Overvoid contains everything and everyone. The one thing it doesn't contain is itself and what we call the Divine Presence that it's a part of. The same presence that no one else in universe can properly comprehend. There's no character in DC that the Overvoid isn't bigger than or above other than itself.

First, per the agreed-upon DC cosmology splits, the Divine Presence isn't even part of the same cosmology as the Overvoid. Second, your response fails to address DontTalkDT's point, as "There's no character in DC that the Overvoid isn't bigger than or above other than itself" proves nothing about "Is it's AP equivalent to that of something that can erase something bigger than all we know to exist in DC?"

Because the multiverse can be expanded or built upon in different levels or states and none of it can reach the Overvoid.

It wouldn't, because the stuff in the layers below the Overvoid can be changed, expanded or layered upon and still not reach it. Which was my point to Firestorm. That sort of thing is what qualifies something for 1-A without having a High 1-B or Low 1-A hierarchy.

This isn't just "multiverse+1" it's "multiverse + any hierarchy + mortal comprehension is still below the Overvoid"

Unwarranted assumption, unless you can show me a scan saying something along the lines of "No matter how much we expand the multiverse, even by infinite magnitudes, it will never fill the Overvoid".

An example can be theoretical. Whether any verse actually relies on it, is of no consequence to anything.


No "that" refers to "the power equivalent to that necessary to destroy an infinite hierarchy" or "being 1-A" if you so want. And I already gave several theoretical examples.


Yeah, I get that.

But think again about what this conversation was about. I said there is no evidence that the Overvoid could erase something bigger than it. To which you countered, that there is nothing bigger. So, my counter that in other verses there can be something bigger makes sense, no? Because we are talking about which AP ranking it should have, which is a stat that compares different fictions. So the question is "Is its AP equivalent to that of something that can erase something bigger than all we know to exist in DC?" and the answer is "no", because it has no evidence that it could erase something that is bigger than what we know it to be nor do we know that it is infinite levels of infinity bigger.


I know Tier 10-C characters that exist at a conceptual level, so I don't know why this keeps getting brought up like it has relevance. Existing beyond the multiverse and the multiverse being insignificant to the Overvoid, is a great feat for the Overvoid to be "Level of the multiverse"+1 level of infinity. I don't see why it would be a feat of being "Level of the multiverse" + infinite levels of infinity that are never mentioned.


WTF, then all lies would be real and every theory true.


Being 1 level of infinity above all of that combined should be enough to match those feats in nature. Like, if you are 1 level of infinity above it all, then it would all appear like 0, because 1/infinity = 0 (in some sense, at least).


If we don't mention the exception is allowed, then we also won't ever have any, because nobody would know it's allowed. And just because I don't know one, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If we had this rules just for 2 verses or something, then we could just put it into the verse explanations. But we don't.


Yeah, something like that.

Could be a hierarchy of dimensions, R>F or even just power. I believe (until recently) Isekai at Peace used a hierarchy of various levels of omnipotence as reasoning. Given, I don't know the verse, so I won't put my hand in fire for that.

Like, ultimately, if nothing hints at infinite levels of infinity, proving them is probably impossible, no?

Letting this debate drag out for so long is a waste of time. DontTalkDT, I strongly urge you to call in Ant and AKM to forcibly quash this level of stonewalling from Qawsedf234 and the others.

 

[Qawsedf234]

response fails to address DontTalkDT's point,

I thought I did address it; Yes I believe it can.

Unwarranted assumption,

There's infinite creations capable of being tuned in different forms and competitions, all of which amount to zero within the Overvoid. The assumption is completely warranted.

DontTalkDT, I strongly urge you to call in Ant and AKM to forcibly quash this level of stonewalling from Qawsedf234 and the others.

I think you're confused here. This isn't stone walling, at worst this is just derailing the thread (EDIT: even if i did disagree with the OP nothing i said would also be considered stone walling either). The point of the OP is to adjust the wording of one of our 1-A justifications which I don't have a problem with. This all started because Firestorm asked if the Overvoid qualifies for it, which I said yes and DT disagreed with me.

Our current topic has nothing to do with the validity of the suggested change.

 

[Firestorm808]

Currently away from home, but I do have questions when I get back and after rereading the thread.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I thought I did address it; Yes I believe it can.


There's infinite creations capable of being tuned in different forms and competitions, all of which amount to zero within the Overvoid. The assumption is completely warranted.

Transcending a Low 2-C universe and a 2-A multiverse are both Low 1-C. Infinite creations would still amount to zero in the Overvoid if it were only one transcendent level higher than the infinite creations. To prove 1-A, you would need to show that these infinite creations are vertical transcendences, not horizontal realms.

I think you're confused here. This isn't stone walling, at worst this is just derailing the thread (EDIT: even if i did disagree with the OP nothing i said would also be considered stone walling either). The point of the OP is to adjust the wording of one of our 1-A justifications which I don't have a problem with. This all started because Firestorm asked if the Overvoid qualifies for it, which I said yes and DT disagreed with me.

Our current topic has nothing to do with the validity of the suggested change.

If it has nothing to do with the suggested change, then you shouldn't be talking about it at all in this thread.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If it has nothing to do with the suggested change

Firestorm asked a question, I gave my opinion and then others disagreed with that opinion. This wasn't just a me thing here, but you, Deagon and DT as well.

But I'll drop the conversation since it's ultimately off topic.