Amending the "1-A Without Infinite Hierarchy"-Guideline

[DontTalkDT]

So, we have this guideline regarding reaching 1-A without having an actual infinite hierarchy.
There has been some debate about whether or not showing that adding/removing one or a few layers of infinity without it making a difference is enough to clarify.
Technically the "arbitrarily" and "any amount" in the description should clarify that one has to prove that adding/removing infinite layers would make no difference either.
Still, just to make this unambiguous, I propose the following appendix:

Note that, in order to jump to 1-A this way, it does not suffice that adding one or several layers/dimensions makes no difference to the character in question. That much could be true even if the character only has one level of qualitative superiority to the constructs, as then they would all appear to have zero / infinitely small size to them. It has to be clear in some fashion that even if an infinite or unlimited number of dimensions/layers are added or removed it would make no difference to the character. The same applies to similarily large jumps in other tiers, like from 1-A to 1-A+ etc.

 

[Deagonx]

I agree. This came up during the DC revisions where it was being argued that because a single layer was added, it could be inferred that infinitely many layers could also be added, despite a lack of evidence, so it's important IMO that it is clarified as in the OP that there must be clear indications that infinite layers could be added.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

As the one who created CRT similar to this, I agree.
What will this CRT affect this tho?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/low-1-a-wiki-wide-tiering-revision-beyond-dimensions.151894/

 

[Tarang123]

I feel like it should be explained how exactly a verse can attain this kind of of reasoning beyond just "can implement an infinite number of dimensions without changing their superiority over it" or something.

Edit: I do agree that a note should be there, but some further explanation or clarification as to how a character can qualify for this (as lots of verses don't really use this kind of logic verbatim) should also be there

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So, we have this guideline regarding reaching 1-A without having an actual infinite hierarchy.
There has been some debate about whether or not showing that adding/removing one or a few layers of infinity without it making a difference is enough to clarify.
Technically the "arbitrarily" and "any amount" in the description should clarify that one has to prove that adding/removing infinite layers would make no difference either.
Still, just to make this unambiguous, I propose the following appendix:

I agree, yeah. As I said in the other thread, being unreachable to successive-but-finite additions of layers could be accomplished by a High 1-B structure as well, so clarifying that is good.

 

[Tarang123]

I agree, yeah. As I said in the other thread, being unreachable to successive-but-finite additions of layers could be accomplished by a High 1-B structure as well, so clarifying that is good.

Agreed, but I also want to ask if the clarification can address things related to concepts and specifically what transcending concepts can get. Cause that isn't really anywhere on our tiering system despite being part of our standards

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I agree, yeah. As I said in the other thread, being unreachable to successive-but-finite additions of layers could be accomplished by a High 1-B structure as well, so clarifying that is good.

Quick question, what would transcending dimensional theory be equal to? I believe some verses have their 1-A rating because of this fact. Would this affect any of those verses?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Agreed, but I also want to ask if the clarification can address things related to concepts and specifically what transcending concepts can get. Cause that isn't really anywhere on our tiering system despite being part of our standards

That seems like it would be more up the alley of this thread, since it was made to actually address the issue of exactly what tier the method by which you bypass the need for hierarchies nets you. This one is more to iron out what the method is in general. Notice how the OP still has "Unreachable to an addition of even infinite layers/dimensions" as 1-A, instead of positing that it should be another tier as the thread linked does.

 

[Tarang123]

That seems like it would be more up the alley of this thread, since it was made to actually address the issue of exactly what tier the method by which you bypass the need for hierarchies nets you. This one is more to iron out what the method is in general. Notice how the OP still has "Unreachable to an addition of even infinite layers/dimensions" as 1-A, instead of positing that it should be another tier as the thread linked does.

I feel like that stuff should be directly addressed on one of the official pages like the tiering system through a note or a specific FAQ section

 

[Firestorm808]

Do we have any examples of how such a characteristic of adding dimensions can be depicted or implied?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Do we have any examples of how such a characteristic of adding dimensions can be depicted or implied?

I think the only example I know is the debatable one from Ichiban Ushiro no Daimao (debatable not because it's unclear if it meets the criteria, but because the hierarchy probably just actually exists. Nobody start that debate again here, ok? We are just trying to have an example).

But it would then be something like this:

The world was created by the storyteller known as the Law of Identity.

Then what was the world? The world was fiction.

But at the same time, the world was an absolute truth from inside that fiction.

From the outside, it was fiction. From the inside, it was truth.

What if one tried viewing the world as fictional from the outside perspective?

How did the world come to be?

Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.

That one would be the one who had taken in all existence and all life.

That one would be too lonely to call a god.

It needs some additional support for interpretation to make sure transcendence and stuff is viable (which the verse has, but I won't write a whole respect thread here lol), but as an example, it should give you an idea of how this works. It says basically "even if the world were a dream, within a dream, within a dream.... ad infinitum, the Law of Identity would still be above all of that and have taken all of that into herself." So even if the hierarchy doesn't exist (again, probably does) the Law of Identity would still have a solid statement of being powerful enough to transcend such a thing and could hence have a corresponding tier.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Do we have any examples of how such a characteristic of adding dimensions can be depicted or implied?

im pretty sure the majority are for stat equalizer abilities ( like the screw guy from medaka box), or abilities like ruphas

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

This is a hard requirement to reach though, not that that matters.

 

[Firestorm808]

I think the only example I know is the debatable one from Ichiban Ushiro no Daimao (debatable not because it's unclear if it meets the criteria, but because the hierarchy probably just actually exists. Nobody start that debate again here, ok? We are just trying to have an example).

But it would then be something like this:

It needs some additional support for interpretation to make sure transcendence and stuff is viable (which the verse has, but I won't write a whole respect thread here lol), but as an example, it should give you an idea of how this works. It says basically "even if the world were a dream, within a dream, within a dream.... ad infinitum, the Law of Identity would still be above all of that and have taken all of that into herself." So even if the hierarchy doesn't exist (again, probably does) the Law of Identity would still have a solid statement of being powerful enough to transcend such a thing and could hence have a corresponding tier.

Is there another way to rephrase this requirement as it seems very niche?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Is there another way to rephrase this requirement as it seems very niche?

It seems very niche, because it is very niche. That characters are 1-A without having a 1-A cosmology is just a big exception. You need evidence that the character can destroy a structure multiple infinities bigger than anything the verse is known to have. I don't think there is a way around the verse needing some rather explicit statements to make that acceptable.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

That seems like it would be more up the alley of this thread, since it was made to actually address the issue of exactly what tier the method by which you bypass the need for hierarchies nets you. This one is more to iron out what the method is in general. Notice how the OP still has "Unreachable to an addition of even infinite layers/dimensions" as 1-A, instead of positing that it should be another tier as the thread linked does.

For those who want to give their opinions there, the thread has been unlocked.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

im pretty sure the majority are for stat equalizer abilities ( like the screw guy from medaka box), or abilities like ruphas

I don't think Kumagawa has much to do with adding dimensions unless I misunderstood what this meant

Ruphas ascends to higher infinities, not exactly adding dimensions but I mean still going up the ladder in some way I guess

 

[Antvasima]

I also agree with this addition. Higher orders of reality should usually be interpreted as single higher steps of infinity without explicit further evidence.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Do we have any examples of how such a characteristic of adding dimensions can be depicted or implied?

For D&D there's the Old Ones. Though it may not be as direct as you want.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Do we have any examples of how such a characteristic of adding dimensions can be depicted or implied?

SCP-3812.

There are a lot of intricacies regarding the SCP cosmology I could go on about for a while, but for this question, all you need to know is that a reality-fiction difference in SCP-3812's cosmology, instead of granting one level of infinity higher, causes you to entirely transcend the system of spatial and temporal dimensions of the lower narrative. The physical contents of one universe in the SCP multiverse are a 4D spacetime unless otherwise specified, but SCP-3812 is 1-A due to this difference between physical and metaphysical dimensions in SCP.

“Reality is no different from the physical; that is to say, it is one more way to describe order in the universe. Where the physical can be used to describe things and places, and the temporal can describe moments and periods, reality can be used to describe the completeness of the universe, its fallibility and its overall construction. With that said, just as there are no doubt higher physical dimensions that we cannot perceive or access, there is no reason to believe that the same could not apply to reality. Reality as we perceive it is no more than one tier in the hierarchy of organization that dictates the construction of our existence, and there are likely others above and below ours. Just like an entity in the 4th spatial dimension might perceive our universe and its contents as a whole, and could manipulate those contents from a realm of higher energy, so could an entity with access to a higher metaphysical dimension manipulate the very architecture of our reality, all at once, from a similar realm of higher energy.”

 

[Fixxed]

The same applies to similarily large jumps in other tiers, like from 1-A to 1-A+ etc.

This one. Is bassline 1A to above bassline 1A must have same transcendent as dimension/layer to 1A rating?
I mean if character already in bassline 1A rating, can he have above bassline by transcend it but in same level as higher dimension transcend lower dimension?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Quick question, what would transcending dimensional theory be equal to? I believe some verses have their 1-A rating because of this fact. Would this affect any of those verses?

Dimensional theory of the world means I guess how many dimensions the world has. I don't think this should grant 1A automatically from what is presented in DT OP.

Sorry for commenting on staff thread I also want to know this. You can delete my comment later.

 

[Tarang123]

I also agree with this addition. Higher orders of reality should usually be interpreted as single higher steps of infinity without explicit further evidence.

Isn't that how we've always viewed things?

 

[Firestorm808]

For D&D there's the Old Ones. Though it may not be as direct as you want.

It seems very niche, because it is very niche. That characters are 1-A without having a 1-A cosmology is just a big exception. You need evidence that the character can destroy a structure multiple infinities bigger than anything the verse is known to have. I don't think there is a way around the verse needing some rather explicit statements to make that acceptable.

How do we equate the spatial/mathematical definitions of Tier 1 with the conceptual side of some cosmologies?

 

[DontTalkDT]

How do we equate the spatial/mathematical definitions of Tier 1 with the conceptual side of some cosmologies?

in which regard?
Like, I gave you an example based on R>F transcendence, which is a non-spatial/mathematical way.
"Conceptual" generally sounds vague, but idk. Depends on the example. I think the criteria are laid out sufficiently generally. Whatever it is, either you can construct an argument that adding/removing infinite levels of qualitative superiority changes nothing... or you can't.

 

[Antvasima]

I also agree with this addition. Higher orders of reality should usually be interpreted as single higher steps of infinity without explicit further evidence.

@AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale

What do you think about DontTalk's suggestions in this thread? I strongly agree with him.

 

[Firestorm808]

in which regard?
Like, I gave you an example based on R>F transcendence, which is a non-spatial/mathematical way.
"Conceptual" generally sounds vague, but idk. Depends on the example. I think the criteria are laid out sufficiently generally. Whatever it is, either you can construct an argument that adding/removing infinite levels of qualitative superiority changes nothing... or you can't.

Sorry. I should have been more specific. Here's the situation I'm evaluating with DC:

• In qualitatively superior realms, things get more conceptual-based.
  • Beings in the Orrery are made of matter and operate within physical space and time.
  • Beings in the Sphere of the Gods are pure idea and operate within a metaphysical story.
  • Beings in Limbo lack the concept of story.
• Nil takes this pattern to the next level, as far as reasonably possible before achieving the pure absolute Nothingness/Oneness of the Overvoid.
  • Nil is a fundamental world inhabited by primal forms. Concepts like time and space here are as bare as you can get.
  • The primal concept of "Time" is a clockwork pattern in the sky with Nil itself being the last concept of space.
• The Omniverse Source Wall is the cut-off point to all concepts outside the Ultimate Concept.
• The Overvoid
  • The Single concept of the Source transcends all other concepts.
    • The Overvoid is an immense awareness without limits or definition.
    • One non-dual God that Morrison metaphorically refers to as the blank page of the comic.
    • Described as integrating all dual concepts and cannot be contained or halved.
    • The ultimate concept above all others. No other concepts exist in the Source. The Source just is.
  • The primal concept of time was engulfed from Nil because of the Overvoid. The Overvoid would then go on to engulf the primal concepts of space, Nil.
  • In a similar manner to Mandrakk, ideas are lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Overvoid. The primal concepts of time and space were no different to the Overvoid.

If you were to shove the more concepts of higher time and space dimensions at the Overvoid, they would just get lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Ultimate concept that is the Overvoid. Does the Ultimate non-dual concept that engulfs the higher and primal concepts of time and space dimensions meet the same requirements as adding new dimensions of space not mattering?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Does the Ultimate non-dual concept that engulfs the higher and primal concepts of time and space dimensions meet the same requirements as adding new dimensions of space not mattering?

Yeah

 

[Firestorm808]

Yeah

Thanks for your input.

 

[Crabwhale]

This be a Tier Juan topic so my ass ain't hugely inclined to give an opinion.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Sorry. I should have been more specific. Here's the situation I'm evaluating with DC:

• In qualitatively superior realms, things get more conceptual-based.
  • Beings in the Orrery are made of matter and operate within physical space and time.
  • Beings in the Sphere of the Gods are pure idea and operate within a metaphysical story.
  • Beings in Limbo lack the concept of story.
• Nil takes this pattern to the next level, as far as reasonably possible before achieving the pure absolute Nothingness/Oneness of the Overvoid.
  • Nil is a fundamental world inhabited by primal forms. Concepts like time and space here are as bare as you can get.
  • The primal concept of "Time" is a clockwork pattern in the sky with Nil itself being the last concept of space.
• The Omniverse Source Wall is the cut-off point to all concepts outside the Ultimate Concept.
• The Overvoid
  • The Single concept of the Source transcends all other concepts.
    • The Overvoid is an immense awareness without limits or definition.
    • One non-dual God that Morrison metaphorically refers to as the blank page of the comic.
    • Described as integrating all dual concepts and cannot be contained or halved.
    • The ultimate concept above all others. No other concepts exist in the Source. The Source just is.
  • The primal concept of time was engulfed from Nil because of the Overvoid. The Overvoid would then go on to engulf the primal concepts of space, Nil.
  • In a similar manner to Mandrakk, ideas are lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Overvoid. The primal concepts of time and space were no different to the Overvoid.

If you were to shove the more concepts of higher time and space dimensions at the Overvoid, they would just get lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Ultimate concept that is the Overvoid. Does the Ultimate non-dual concept that engulfs the higher and primal concepts of time and space dimensions meet the same requirements as adding new dimensions of space not mattering?

For the most part what you describe is just a conceptual nothingness. That's not ground for any tiering change.

Then there are aspects of beyond dimensional existence. Might be Type 2, but that is only worth as many levels of transcendence of demonstrated as well.

Now, the thing regarding "If you were to shove the more concepts of higher time and space dimensions at the Overvoid, they would just get lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Ultimate concept that is the Overvoid" is probably the crux of the matter. Thing is, conceptual erasure of space dimensions is also bound to NLF. Just because you can conceptually erase dimensions, does not imply that you can do so for any number of them. We have long since abandoned any idea of concepts inherently being above dimensions of any number and things like that.

Hence, the Overvoid being able to conceptually erase any dimensions put into it only matters to the extent as the verse has mentioned to have dimensions. There is little reason to assume that a theoretical space that might be "bigger" than the Overvoid, so big that it could enclose it, would get erased by it, no?

So, basically, to upgrade based on that it would require some statement about how many higher dimensions can be actually erased. Just "higher dimensions" without any statement of how many would not be enough.

 

[Deagonx]

I strongly agree with DT here and he did a fantastic job articulating my concerns with that approach to the Overvoid.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Might this not effectively thwart the very raison d'être of the exception in question? The directive pertains to the attainment of a 1-A without recourse to infinite hierarchical structures, whereas the accompanying notation suggests that a considerably elevated 1-B hierarchy should be in place within the verse.

This appears to present an inconsistency.

Note that, in order to jump to 1-A this way, it does not suffice that adding one or several layers/dimensions makes no difference to the character in question. That much could be true even if the character only has one level of qualitative superiority to the constructs, as then they would all appear to have zero / infinitely small size to them. It has to be clear in some fashion that even if an infinite or unlimited number of dimensions/layers are added or removed it would make no difference to the character. The same applies to similarily large jumps in other tiers, like from 1-A to 1-A+ etc.

The exemplar that you have proffered suffers from infirmity,
as it contains an already existing and conspicuously elevated 1-B hierarchical arrangement within the verse.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Might this not effectively thwart the very raison d'être of the exception in question? The directive pertains to the attainment of a 1-A without recourse to infinite hierarchical structures, whereas the accompanying notation suggests that a considerably elevated 1-B hierarchy should be in place within the verse.

This appears to present an inconsistency.

No, see my earlier example for instance:

I think the only example I know is the debatable one from Ichiban Ushiro no Daimao (debatable not because it's unclear if it meets the criteria, but because the hierarchy probably just actually exists. Nobody start that debate again here, ok? We are just trying to have an example).

But it would then be something like this:

It needs some additional support for interpretation to make sure transcendence and stuff is viable (which the verse has, but I won't write a whole respect thread here lol), but as an example, it should give you an idea of how this works. It says basically "even if the world were a dream, within a dream, within a dream.... ad infinitum, the Law of Identity would still be above all of that and have taken all of that into herself." So even if the hierarchy doesn't exist (again, probably does) the Law of Identity would still have a solid statement of being powerful enough to transcend such a thing and could hence have a corresponding tier.

There doesn't have to be such a hierarchy. However, you use some concrete information that whatever you're doing is capable of working at such infinite times infinite higher scale. It wouldn't make sense to upgrade a character without any such thing.
So you will need some explanation as to how something that much bigger would still not matter. But you don't need something that much bigger to exist.

 

[ImmortalDread]

But your example is bad, because it already has a high 1-B hierarchy – within the verse as I already said this in my post.

Also, exactly, if it makes no sense to upgrade a character without any “infinite hierarchy”,
then remove the note completely because as far as I can tell, the note and the title don't match at all.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Hence, the Overvoid being able to conceptually erase any dimensions put into it only matters to the extent as the verse has mentioned to have dimensions. There is little reason to assume that a theoretical space that might be "bigger" than the Overvoid, so big that it could enclose it, would get erased by it, no?

But there is no space bigger than the Overvoid, its the outside blank page that DC is drawn on. It the canvas reality is just a minor stain in. It fits the current FAQ justification in a straight forward manner.

 

[Firestorm808]

For the most part what you describe is just a conceptual nothingness. That's not ground for any tiering change.

Then there are aspects of beyond dimensional existence. Might be Type 2, but that is only worth as many levels of transcendence of demonstrated as well.

Now, the thing regarding "If you were to shove the more concepts of higher time and space dimensions at the Overvoid, they would just get lost, engulfed, and forgotten in the Ultimate concept that is the Overvoid" is probably the crux of the matter. Thing is, conceptual erasure of space dimensions is also bound to NLF. Just because you can conceptually erase dimensions, does not imply that you can do so for any number of them. We have long since abandoned any idea of concepts inherently being above dimensions of any number and things like that.

Hence, the Overvoid being able to conceptually erase any dimensions put into it only matters to the extent as the verse has mentioned to have dimensions. There is little reason to assume that a theoretical space that might be "bigger" than the Overvoid, so big that it could enclose it, would get erased by it, no?

So, basically, to upgrade based on that it would require some statement about how many higher dimensions can be actually erased. Just "higher dimensions" without any statement of how many would not be enough.

You are saying to use the rule: regarding reaching 1-A without having an actual infinite hierarchy one needs to prove the verse has an infinite hierarchy?

Isn't that contradictory?

 

[Firestorm808]

But there is no space bigger than the Overvoid, its the outside blank page that DC is drawn on. It the canvas reality is just a minor stain in. It fits the current FAQ justification in a straight forward manner.

Yes, I am of the same opinion.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You are saying to use the rule: regarding reaching 1-A without having an actual infinite hierarchy one needs to prove the verse has an infinite hierarchy?

Isn't that contradictory?

Might this not effectively thwart the very raison d'être of the exception in question? The directive pertains to the attainment of a 1-A without recourse to infinite hierarchical structures, whereas the accompanying notation suggests that a considerably elevated 1-B hierarchy should be in place within the verse.

This appears to present an inconsistency.


The exemplar that you have proffered suffers from infirmity,
as it contains an already existing and conspicuously elevated 1-B hierarchical arrangement within the verse.

I literally said that.