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Altair vs Golden King

@Celestial Pegasus

The entire reason for GK is winning is predicated on the notion that Altair will nott be able to come back after being atomized. While Altair has multiple ways of winning.

The critters may be above the laws of physics but they do not have regenerative abilities, meaning that as long as GK is able to affect them they will die. It's just atomisation that affects abstrcts.

Altair herself is an independent existence, which transcended the yoke of her world, beyond that she has mid-godly Regenerationn.

Would GK be able to affect the critters if they had mid-godly regen? It's unlikely.

Altair is basically a critter with Mid-Godly and there is a high possibility that her plot-based regen would bring her back, and if it does GK dies.

Altair has multiple ways of winning, yet GK is winning because of one single ability (which is his only way of beating Altair) which we aren't even sure would work.

Therefore, Altair for reasons above.
 
@Monarch That's like saying it's a stomp every time a character with passive hax wins when the other character has ways to win just that the passive hax is faster. GK hax simply works faster here.

@Oleserian Prove altair can come back from this sort of erasure, as we already said above critters are phenomenons which embody death, to hurt or kill such a thing is the same as killing something as nonsensical as disease or fate or some other metaphysical thing like that.

If you can literally kill death, a metaphyscial thing, i don't see how altair's regen helps

What you have to do here is simply, prove altair comes back from having being erased by an ability which erases metaphysical concepts like death, 100's times over, the only thing you could bring up is her being sealed and her concept attacked by selesia, and even then she didn't get erased and even if she did, it was nowhere near to this extent.
 
The gaze is atomisation that works on conceptual beings with no which have shown no Regenerationn, it doesn't erase things it atomises them (albeit conceptually). All of Altair's powers stem from the Holopsicon which itself is a metaphysical ability that allows her to manipulate the plot entire stories (Universes).

Altair doesn't have Mid-Godly regen "just because" as it stems from something metaphysical that manipulates Universes, her Regenerationn is necessarily on a conceptual level.

She has also been conceptually attacked by conceptual beings capable of creating infinite concepts and she still got out.

Erasing a few conceptual foders is just not comparable to the scale of conceptual attacks Altair has been subjected to.
 
Okay and what kind of conceptual attacks has Altair withstood? I don't really all that much about her expect "plot hax" so some explanations on that end would be nice.
 
For example, she was conceptually attacked by Selestia, which is powerful enough to create a concept of literally infinite size, she also regenerated from Sirius's Existence Erasure, Sirius's powers are generated from the metaphysical Holopsicon which manipulates the plot of stories (Universes), not only that Sirius was specifically designed to defeat Altair and still couldn't.
 
Fair enough, So I for now will retract my vote and see how this plays out because I barely know anything about Altair or The Golden King other than what the profile says.
 
you said conceptual level which means it similar to critters and we said gaze can atomize those things to all hell 100 times over with ease like they are nothing...
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
you said conceptual level which means it similar to critters and we said gaze can atomize those things to all hell 100 times over with ease like they are nothing...
Click to expand...
Did those Critters have Mid-Godly Regen that can come back from getting their concept erased? Did GK's stare null/bypass that Regen and didn't allow them to come back?? Because Erasing/Atomizing 100x over isn't helpful if your opponent has a regen that would allow him/her to come back from getting erased conceptually.
 
@Duhh Prove altair can come back from being concept erased hundreds of times over please, holopscion only has universe power when she is low 2-C, and altair only had her concept attacked by selestia with her infinite gates, not destroyed.

Whether or not the critters have mid-godly regen is irrelevant, since they are concepts, killing them=killing concepts, altair regens from existence erasure, not concept destruction.
 
But you didn't answer my question. Did the Critters have Mid-Godly Regen that could help them bring back from getting their Concept erased? Did GK's stare null/bypass that ability and prevented them from coming back?? Because having 100x potent erasure isn't really helping here as your opponent isn't resisting the erasure but is regening after getting erased. Its like saying since Dormammu's Void attack erased Eternity, the concept of the Universe itself, then he can easily erase any being despite having mid godly Regen that can come back from Concept Erasure even tho Eternity had no Regen.

Also, Aside from having her Concept attacked by Selesia's Ionian Aphoria, Altair was erased by Sirius's 9th movement that erases "Plot" which is essentially concept erasure as Plot can mean anything in a Metafictional sense. Plus she had her Concept Overwritten by Sirius after the Previous ability failed as the dialogues specifically had Altair saying "You are trying to become Altair" and still came back.
 
@Duhhh Critters are concepts ie death itself, in other cases information itself, they are supernatural phenomenon, physicals laws have no meaning to them, they can't be physically attacked, broken or destroyed. When they attack even if you could dodge their attack, you still die, because they aren't attacking with physical attacks, they are literally attacking with death itself, hence dodging is useless.

Critters are concepts themselves hence if their concepts get erased, they aren't coming back, coming back from concept erasure requires a better mid-godly regen than normal.

9th movement makes plot disappear, which essential erases stuff, altair came back from that, i'm saying GK's ability erases concepts 100's of times over, so it's plot erasure vs 100 of times concept destruction.

Sirius tried to take over altair's existence, not destroy her concept, and she would have succeeded if she had a personality, so not relevant here.

What's relevant is her coming back from plot erasure, which i can quickly see this match turning into a debate about plot vs concepts...
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
@Duhhh Critters are concepts ie death itself, in other cases information itself, they are supernatural phenomenon, physicals laws have no meaning to them, they can't be physically attacked, broken or destroyed. When they attack even if you could dodge their attack, you still die, because they aren't attacking with physical attacks, they are literally attacking with death itself, hence dodging is useless.

Critters are concepts themselves hence if their concepts get erased, they aren't coming back, coming back from concept erasure requires a better mid-godly regen than normal.

9th movement makes plot disappear, which essential erases stuff, altair came back from that, i'm saying GK's ability erases concepts 100's of times over, so it's plot erasure vs 100 of times concept destruction.

Sirius tried to take over altair's existence, not destroy her concept, and she would have succeeded if she had a personality, so not relevant here.

What's relevant is her coming back from plot erasure, which i can quickly see this match turning into a debate about plot vs concepts...
Click to expand...
For the hundreth time dude, how is Erasing 100x over even relevant here??? Like do the Critters have an insane Regen that allows them to come back even after they are erased and even then GK's ability still erased them and prevented them from coming back?? Did GK's erasure erased someone with high-end mid godly regen that allows to come back from Conceptual Erasure??? The arguments being made for Altair is that she can come back from getting her Concept erased. Not "She can resist existence erasure so she can talk GK's erasure".

About the Existence Change, like I previously said, Altair literally states Sirius was trying to become Altair herself which was translated to "Trying to take over me" in the subtitles. It's basically Concept Overwritting and Altair was able to save herself in the last moment due to Sirius's lack of personality. But let me give you the benefit of Doubt and say this is irrelevant.

9th Movement erases Plot itself. From a Metafictional point of view that's basically Erasing Concepts as "Plot" can be anything within a story. It can be Objects, Beings, Powers, Concepts,etc. That's proven many times in the story such as Altair using Factor Mimic to Copy Gigas Machina but it copied Gigas Machina and she also gained the ability to control it remotely. AlSo the Outline Origin where it was stated to remove "Plot Twists" aka Power Ups, Character Buildups, Personality, etc. Or even Meteora's Creation of the Birdcage which is a Live Plot but itself is a Conceptual Framework to Capture Altair.
 
I do not see how the "100X over" bit is a feat.

Like, what?

He glares at people, or they glare at him, and then their atoms tear apart. That's it. Like, how does doing it a hundred times over even come into it?

If he was doing it by blasting someone with energy, sure, then it just means that he's blasting them with 100X the energy needed to atomise them. But he's not. He's just looking at them, then they atomise.

It's even worse when you bring in that he's doing it to conceptual beings in.

Honestly, it just seems like a way of saying "look how strong this guy's powers are, he'll kill you a hundred times over just by looking at you". But it's not a measurement of strength that even makes sense, because he's not doing it through physical force...

Anyway, if he atomises something, it's atomised. Doesn't matter if it's powerful enough to atomise them one time, or a hundred times, either way they're atomised.

If you can come back from being atomised once, you can come back from being atomised 100 times over.
 
@Duhh I say 100's of times because i am describing the potency of the ability, the very moment nightengale became conscious of his gaze, her power, critters, had died hundreds of deaths in order to compensate for her being in his gaze.

What i was saying was that even if she could come back from being concept erased, this concept erase is 100's of times more potent than a normal concept erase, this got further strengthened hundreds of millions of times when he became ultharathotep, not the version being used here, but it adds to his gaze being more than hey this guy is strong but this feat is total nonsense.

I watched the series, i made altair's profile, i know what i am talking about, what i just said could be considered an appeal to authority so i won't argue from that standpoint, what i am arguing though is that it wasn't a concept takeover, but an existence takeover, all was said was that she was trying to become her, which doesn't translate to becoming her concept, just her existence, altair has no concept abilities, just plot based abilities. Still irrelavant since as i said GK's ability is 100's of times more potent than a normal conceptual abilitiy.

You have a point here on plot encompassing concepts, but we are going to go in the direction of how many plots=a concept, cause again sorry for saying it so many times but driving home my point this isn't just a normal conceptual ability.

Ordinary plot manipulation>concept manipulation, but the question then becomes plot manipulation>concept manipulation of any degree?

Edit: What Monarch said got me thinking and re-looking at the feat, the 100's over isn't exactly an accurate way to describe what happened, it isn't that he atomizes a person and they die 100 times, cause the critters didn't die and come back, they just died and that was it, it's that he atomized and killed 100's of critters which i have already said are concepts, which proves my point anyway since he can kill 100's of concepts in an instant via looking at them.
 
But potency really isn't relevant here because Altair isn't withstanding or resisting it. Neither does GK's ability being 100x more powerful than a normal Conceptual Erasure does anything here because Altair isn't resisting anything. To elaborate, GK erases Altair, Altair becomes non-existence, Altair regens back into existence. If GK's ability erases beings from both existence and non-existence or nullifies Mid-Godly during his erasure, then Altair couldn't come back. But it isn't the case here as Monarch explained.


I never said anything about Plot encompassing Concepts. What I said is that if you look at the verse from a Metafictional point of view, "Plot" can mean anything including concepts. Let me give you examples. Her Representation Exposition ability revises Plot. But plot here can mean anything including Matter, Information, and even Powers as she was able to change Selesia's Sword and a bunch of Zombies into Flowers and later turned Sirius into her new self. Another example is Fate Reconstruction which is changing the Plot itself but here the "Plot" was "Fate" itself which she manipulated to change Setsuna's fate. Another one is the 9th movement or fate restoration which erases the "Plot" which can be anything as it was used to erase Objects, beings like Altair herself, and even an entire Universe/Story. So what I'm saying is that "Plot" can literally mean anything in the verse including Concepts due to the Metafictional genre of the series which brings me to my point that Altair regened from Plot Erasure which would essentially be Conceptual Erasure or maybe even a bit higher level of Erasure.
 
When has altair ever come back from non-existence?

Plot manipulation meaning anything, is really the same as saying reality warping means anything which is true, since technically causality manipulation, concept manipulation etc are just advanced versions of it, so is plot manipulation as well.

Altair's application of her plot manipulation is what allows her to manipulate fate, erase things, manipulate causality etc. Overall basically plot manipulation just a more advanced form of reality warping, concept manipulation itself is an advanced form of reality warping and can do stuff like manipulate fate, causality etc, but plot manipulation is more advanced version of reality warping than concept manipulation is.

So what we have to look at here is what has altair used her plot powers to erase, so we can find what she can use her plot powers to come back from, since she came back when sirius used her same power on her.

Low 7-C altair can't erase an entire universe, only her low 2-C version has universal powers, what she has erased from my memory are selestia's vogelchevalier and yuya's hangaku, so what she has erased are singular things, now normally we would say since plot manipulation>concept manipulation, if they are on the same level ie both can erase a single thing, plot manipulation wins.

Now in this case altair's plot manipulation has erased singular things at a time, while gk's concept manipulation has killed 100's of concepts at a time, so the question is how much more advanced is 1 single feat of plot erasal vs 1 single feat of concept manipulation which is hundreds of times more potent than normal concept manipulation.

Then you would get into things like well in the case of causality manipulation vs concept manipulation, can a causality manipulation that is a 100 times more potent than a normal causality manipulation win against average concept manipulation which manipulates one concept? If so then the same analogy would apply with plot vs concept manipulation. So we would say causality is a concept so concept manipulation>causality manipulation right? But what if i say my causality manipulation was infinite in potency, would it still lose to concept manipulation which manipulates a single concept? And in the case i wonder if we going into NLF territory ┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬». No clue.

Memory manipulation, empathetic manipulation etc, are all forms of mind manipulation, but in this case are they just advanced versions of mind manipulation? To me it seems like mind manipulation is a broad term which includes a number of abilities but when we think of it we just think of something as a singular thing like destroying minds, and memory manipulation which is technically part of it, is another way of using it, but don't know if we would consider the average memory manipulation>mind manipulation so probably not a parallel analogy to reality warping which has advanced versions.

So overall still have no clue how to answer this.
 
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