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All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

Kellex said:
Yes, it's a huge difference.
...4.0862579e+30 times the difference to be exact.
Click to expand...
That's too cursed.
Character A:"I am undasexadexalion times the speed of light, get ready!"
Character B:"Okay"
Character B rips Character A's head off because he had inf speed
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Sigh.

FINE. Currently we accept that, outside of edge cases, power and speed increase proportionally.

Accept that: The story has established that a gap in power level as little as 18000 to 24000, a gap that's canonically linear thanks to the Kaioken, is enough for a blitz to occur. This is also proven true when Frieza, having almost twice his power in his second form, was able to blitz Vegeta, whom he was able to contend with in his first form. So it is narratively sound to claim a gap between 1.33x to 2x canonically allows for a speed blitz. This is even consistent in the Cell Saga, where Gohan was on par with Perfect Cell in terms of speed, but turned a stomp around with a 2x multiplier. We will use 1.33x so you have better odds, okay? :)


All these multipliers have to be true for the story to FUNCTION.

Now anyone who knows DB scaling won't be impressed with the text I sent above. Why? Because it's literally all in the speed blog already. The fact 17 is thousands of times faster than Beginning of Z Goku is already a necessity for the story. That's what's LITERALLY established.
Click to expand...
Not a bad start.

Now if only we had a feat that was within a trillion times the current value….
 
beerus.gif
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Piggybacking off someone who did the argumentation for you must feel nice. The thread was literally not going your way before Chariot showed up. At least I know you alone is nothing to worry about.
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M3X_2.0 said:
Oh you can't even imagine. Say goodbye to your multpliers though.
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KaramcaS said:
such a low level of conversation skills. Its admirable how you cant even learn to speak properly, cant distinguish between ideas, and are so far removed from objectivity. Being such a toxic and childish person. what a shame on you
Click to expand...
Please stop making posts like this.

I'm also concerned about one of KT's posts, but he said he and Charmander were fine with that, and Charmander didn't dispute that, so ¯\(ツ)/¯
GodlyCharmander said:
Unironically shouldn't we establish a hard limit to the nearest feat to stop threads like these to be made ever again, "1000 times the last feat", or "around thousand times"?
Click to expand...
No, because shit like GoH has support (250,000x amp being the difference between getting stomped, and being able to one-shot a trillion clones of the stomper) without being an otherwise quantifiable feat.
 
Agnaa said:
Please stop making posts like this.

I'm also concerned about one of KT's posts, but he said he and Charmander were fine with that, and Charmander didn't dispute that, so ¯\(ツ)/¯
Click to expand...
As M3X have said, we're just bantering and we stopped as soon as we detected escalation. We don't have any problems. That third post calling M3X toxic is not involved in our poking around.

Agnaa said:
No, because shit like GoH has support (250,000x amp being the difference between getting stomped, and being able to one-shot a trillion clones of the stomper) without being an otherwise quantifiable feat.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but how is that any different than "Character is 2x faster than other character, and proves this by being FTE from them", repeated several times?
 
GodlyCharmander said:
I'm sorry, but how is that any different than "Character is 2x faster than other character, and proves this by being FTE from them", repeated several times?
Click to expand...
Because it was done at the same time. One attack one-shotting a trillion clones that stomped the character before.

Even taking into account how AoE would mean that the durability of the ones in the middle don't matter, that gets astonishingly close to that multiplier (and heck, that multiplier probably underestimates it).
 
Agnaa said:
Please stop making posts like this.

I'm also concerned about one of KT's posts, but he said he and Charmander were fine with that, and Charmander didn't dispute that, so ¯\(ツ)/¯

No, because shit like GoH has support (250,000x amp being the difference between getting stomped, and being able to one-shot a trillion clones of the stomper) without being an otherwise quantifiable feat.
Click to expand...


I'd like to ask you for permission to reply to your post on the thread. I will list out the evidence.
 
Agnaa said:
No, because shit like GoH has support (250,000x amp being the difference between getting stomped, and being able to one-shot a trillion clones of the stomper) without being an otherwise quantifiable feat.
Click to expand...
Not trying to dis the Korean Goku, but couldn't someone with a 40 times multiplier also stomp trillions of clones since they can't hurt him and also he basically blitzes? (Or did he punch/kick them all once each while stonewalling [before all trillion of them can even move or react] them all?)
 
Huesito88 said:
Not trying to dis the Korean Goku, but couldn't someone with a 40 times multiplier also stomp trillions of clones since they can't hurt him and also he basically blitzes? (Or did he punch/kick them all once each while stonewalling [before all trillion of them can even move or react] them all?)
Click to expand...
Yeah, literally freeza was like only like 100x times stronger in power levels than the average Saiyan, yet he wiped out a whole planet filled of them with 1 attack

Long range of attack+speed already does 99% of the work
 
GodlyCharmander said:
I'd like to ask you for permission to reply to your post on the thread. I will list out the evidence.
Click to expand...
I don't give permission for posts unless I've seen drafts of them, so I can verify they add something new to the conversation.
Huesito88 said:
Not trying to dis the Korean Goku, but couldn't someone with a 40 times multiplier also stomp trillions of clones since they can't hurt him and also he basically blitzes? (Or did he punch/kick them all once each while stonewalling [before all trillion of them can even move or react] them all?)
Click to expand...
From what I've been told, it's an AP amp that took them all out with one blow.
 
Huesito88 said:
Not trying to dis the Korean Goku, but couldn't someone with a 40 times multiplier also stomp trillions of clones since they can't hurt him and also he basically blitzes? (Or did he punch/kick them all once each while stonewalling [before all trillion of them can even move or react] them all?)
Click to expand...
Single attack destroyed a quintillion clones
 
Agnaa said:
I don't give permission for posts unless I've seen drafts of them, so I can verify they add something new to the conversation.

From what I've been told, it's an AP amp that took them all out with one blow.
Click to expand...
Well. Is the multiplier usable in all situations then? Because the x50 multiplier was proven as reliable already, but OP doesn't think we should use it past Namek Arc.

Also, also, it's kinda cheating, but I could just provide you with the evidence here?
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Well. Is the multiplier usable in all situations then? Because the x50 multiplier was proven as reliable already, but OP doesn't think we should use it past Namek Arc.
Click to expand...
Well yeah, we don't automatically consider Multipliers transferable to other situations:
Another thing to keep in mind is that multipliers are not necessarily constant. For example: If a character is twice as fast as another at one point in time, that might not apply at any other point in time. Likewise if a technique is at one point twice as strong as another, that might change when the mastery of the techniques changes.
Click to expand...
That's probably not actually relevant with DB, since these multis are probably stated in ways that it'd apply past Namek Arc.

But then there is the issue of how stacking it requires additional evidence:
If multiple multipliers are to be stacked, that are used upon each other, the evidence for the end result is equal to the total multiplier applied to the best feat. That means that if, for example, a character has a times 10 multiplier and later on gets another times 50 multiplier, than the evidence necessary to use both multipliers to get a statistic, is like that of a times 500 multiplier, as the best feat would be increased by a factor of 500 in that case.
Click to expand...
Since 50x has a lower evidence threshold, we may consider it reliable for that, but not if we apply it two times for 2,500x, or three times for 125,000x

ofc, if a better feat was found post-Namek Arc (say, a 15c feat), 50x could very well be applicable to that.
GodlyCharmander said:
Also, also, it's kinda cheating, but I could just provide you with the evidence here?
Click to expand...
Yeah sure.
 
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Agnaa said:
Well yeah, we don't automatically consider Multipliers transferable to other situations:

That's probably not actually relevant with DB, since these multis are probably stated in ways that it'd apply past Namek Arc.

But then there is the issue of how stacking it requires additional evidence:

Since 50x has a lower evidence threshold, we may consider it reliable for that, but not if we apply it two times for 2,500x, or three times for 125,000x

ofc, if a better feat was found post-Namek Arc (say, a 15c feat), 50x could very well be applicable to that.

Yeah sure.
Click to expand...
I see for example demon slayer verse has "weaker" and "stronger" hashira scaling from a 10x multiplier that leads to a 100x of stronger characters form gyutaros feat

For dragon ball that may be applicable, by Buu saga is heavily implied that base saiyans have surpassed ssj1 namek Goku, as Vegeta said that they are already stronger than piccolo (who after fusing with kami was already a the level of super Saiyans), even more, piccolos said that kaioshin is much stronger than him, and kaioshin was afraid of Yakon who base Goku was stronger than even in base

What I don't know if it'd be acceptable is base Gotenks still being stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, and then base vegetto being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, at that point that's 4 layers of super Saiyans scaling
 
Agnaa said:
ofc, if a better feat was found post-Namek Arc (say, a 15c feat), 50x could very well be applicable to that.
Click to expand...
Those characters would already be capped by Saiyan Saga Kaioken x4 Goku at 43c tho
We're not applying a multiplier over a feat that's magnitudes lower than their listed speed, right? That’d basically be like pulling a random x17 multiplier out of thin air.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
As M3X have said, we're just bantering and we stopped as soon as we detected escalation. We don't have any problems. That third post calling M3X toxic is not involved in our poking around.



I'm sorry, but how is that any different than "Character is 2x faster than other character, and proves this by being FTE from them", repeated several times?
Click to expand...
Eh if an explicitly stated multiplier is high enough like a quadrillion then at least being portrayed as extremely substantial should be enough because otherwise you're just starting to want the most autistic of details. It'd seem like extreme dissonance to disregard that quadrillion multiplier if the author genuinely portrays it as indeed something thats enough to idk more than statue or stomp everyone around them, because then it's not just the author not understanding that it is a large increase.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Those characters would already be capped by Saiyan Saga Kaioken x4 Goku at 43c tho
We're not applying a multiplier over a feat that's magnitudes lower than their listed speed, right? That’d basically be like pulling a random x17 multiplier out of thin air.
Click to expand...
We would do that, I think it's got good enough justification.

"Unknown, at least 43c" going to "At least 731c" seems fine to me. They're some unknown amount higher, in each case, but we can't reliably enough quantify it.
 
Agnaa said:
We would do that, I think it's got good enough justification.

"Unknown, at least 43c" going to "At least 731c" seems fine to me. They're some unknown amount higher, in each case, but we can't reliably enough quantify it.
Click to expand...
??? And what's the justification going to be? "FTL+ (At least 43c; Bob blitzed Maria and Jane), MFTL with SSJ (At least 731c, grew x50 faster)"
Like from an outside perspective, they're just going to think we can't count lol

I'd honestly prefer just not using the multiplier at all rather than acting as if Cell, who has been upscaling over 43c ever since the Saiyan Saga now, was actually 15c just so we could give Gotenks or whatever a value that contradicts our profiles.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
??? And what's the justification going to be? "FTL+ (At least 43c; Bob blitzed Maria and Jane), MFTL with SSJ (At least 731c, grew x50 faster)"
Like from an outside perspective, they're just going to think we can't count lol

I'd honestly prefer just not using the multiplier at all rather than acting as if Cell, who has been upscaling over 43c ever since the Saiyan Saga now, was actually 15c just so we could give Gotenks or whatever a value that contradicts our profiles.
Click to expand...
With the shortened space on profiles, we can just say "Far faster than before", and explain the proper sources in a blog (like we already do).
  • 43c; upscaling with a 50x multiplier on this other feat.
  • 731c; the evidence for the multiplier is considered too unreliable to use beyond 50x the original feat, but there was a 14.6c feat performed by someone, which this is upscaling from.
 
Agnaa said:
With the shortened space on profiles, we can just say "Far faster than before", and explain the proper sources in a blog (like we already do).
  • 43c; upscaling with a 50x multiplier on this other feat.
  • 731c; the evidence for the multiplier is considered too unreliable to use beyond 50x the original feat, but there was a 14.6c feat performed by someone, which this is upscaling from.
Click to expand...
I dunno the fact you have to go out of your way to hide the reason for a whole Tier change (The stuff you should go out of your way to explain the most) because the logic behind it would be completely incoherent to anyone that doesn't know that VSBW arbitrary doesn't like multipliers over x100 just makes it feel wrong.
 
Doesn’t 100% freeza have a feat of perceiving the MFTL dragonballs as they leave nameks atmosphere and travel to earth within minutes? also raises his arm too so he could probably downscale to 1/100,000th of the Dragon balls’ traveling speed, or rather the next character that perception blitzes characters on that speed bracket would, potentially SSJ trunks or definitely SS2 Gohan against P.Cell
 
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Eden_Warlock99 said:
I dunno the fact you have to go out of your way to hide the reason for a whole Tier change (The stuff you should go out of your way to explain the most) because the logic behind it would be completely incoherent to anyone that doesn't know that VSBW arbitrary doesn't like multipliers over x100 just makes it feel wrong.
Click to expand...
No, rather, because the exact details are too verbose for a short statistics section that should try to be relatively concise.

Many of our ratings are things like "Can affect the ultra-realm" or "Is on par with the total power of all monsters", linking to a blog which explains why those things land on that particular tier.
 
Gp972 said:
In fact, Piccolo's eye rays are described as light, so
Click to expand...
Ki itself is light. Super Saiyan auras are made of light energy and explicitly radiate like flames. Energy Waves are most commonly referred to as "beams [of light]" (光線 kōsen) throughout supplemental material; in fact, Frieza's Death Beam specifically is described as a "flash of light" (閃光 senkō) or as simply a "light" (光 hikari) being emitted from his fingertip, which even Namek Saga high-tiers are incapable of defending against. Ki Manipulation techniques can generate heat or even explode upon being absorbed by physical objects, like real world lasers can. Ki itself can be diffused before being released, with auras and Kiai being the most diffused forms of Ki. The page for Ki Manipulation even currently accepts Light Manipulation as a sub-ability.

But also, Ki is "material energy converted from internal energy". And, also, Ki can bend, and explode without being absorbed by solid matter, and can even create explosions without even being materialized, and can propel characters through free space, and can be compressed and given different shapes, and can be physically interacted with, and has tangible force. And again, if Frieza's Death Beam is accepted as real light and, thus, lightspeed, then the series hard-caps under lightspeed until after Post-Zenkai Vegeta and above.

But also, also, I think Piccolo's eye lasers are referred to as "heat rays" (熱光線 netsu kōsen) once, which could possibly be used to argue lightspeed as a form of thermal radiation.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
And again, if Frieza's Death Beam is accepted as real light and, thus, lightspeed, then the series hard-caps under lightspeed until after Post-Zenkai Vegeta and above.

But also, also, I think Piccolo's eye lasers are referred to as "heat rays" (熱光線 netsu kōsen) once, which could possibly be used to argue lightspeed as a form of thermal radiation.
Click to expand...
Are 19 and 20's eye beams described light beams at all?
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Ki itself is light. Super Saiyan auras are made of light energy and explicitly radiate like flames. Energy Waves are most commonly referred to as "beams [of light]" (光線 kōsen) throughout supplemental material; in fact, Frieza's Death Beam specifically is described as a "flash of light" (閃光 senkō) or as simply a "light" (光 hikari) being emitted from his fingertip, which even Namek Saga high-tiers are incapable of defending against. Ki Manipulation techniques can generate heat or even explode upon being absorbed by physical objects, like real world lasers can. Ki itself can be diffused before being released, with auras and Kiai being the most diffused forms of Ki. The page for Ki Manipulation even currently accepts Light Manipulation as a sub-ability.

But also, Ki is "material energy converted from internal energy". And, also, Ki can bend, and explode without being absorbed by solid matter, and can even create explosions without even being materialized, and can propel characters through free space, and can be compressed and given different shapes, and can be physically interacted with, and has tangible force. And again, if Frieza's Death Beam is accepted as real light and, thus, lightspeed, then the series hard-caps under lightspeed until after Post-Zenkai Vegeta and above.

But also, also, I think Piccolo's eye lasers are referred to as "heat rays" (熱光線 netsu kōsen) once, which could possibly be used to argue lightspeed as a form of thermal radiation.
Click to expand...
But Piccolo's eye rays are listed in Daizenshu as non ki ability
 
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