then shouldn't Vegeta one-shot Black Goku? Black has a similiar speed to God Vegeta, then if ki=speed=AP they should be similiar in power level too, so Vegeta Blue>(50×)>Black>=Vegeta God, but in the actual fight the gap doesn't seem that high
Kind of. Goku explains in the Black Saga that against Hit what he did was 'store the power of Blue' while in God form then explode it when he needs it. Goku could only do it once back then but Vegeta trained himself to do it consecutively with no drain. Comparatively back in the U6 Saga, Whis explains the issue is using Blue multiple times a day (checking the raws and I believe he does state the issue is transforming multiple times per day).
Yeah this should've happened against Black if standard Blue was that much faster than God
I didn't state Blue wasn't inefficient in fights. I said the main drop in power is from transforming into it multiple times a day. Big difference. Goku states Vegeta's power doesn't drop from entering Blue consecutively because he 'trained that hard'.
If you compare Vegeta, Trunks and Goku's scaling in that arc you will quickly realise Goku's power toward the end of the Black Saga is unjustified. He just does it.
There is no inconsistency. You are conflating the strain of transforming into it multiple times with the strain of transforming into it once and using it for a full fight. If the strain of using the form were nearly as bad as the strain of transforming into it, then it would be completely pointless to ever use it over God.
...No. Because Vegeta is going Blue in invisible bursts. Like Goku using the X10 Kaio-Ken against Freeza so fast that it's invisible to the reader.
Vietthai probably hasn’t had the chance to get rid of it. A thread was already accepted where it was removed so another thread is redundant I’ll probably remind Vietthai to remove it today on discord.
yes, but he should still oneshot since he becomes 50 times stronger than Black and Black sees the trick only after a while and doesn't statue Vegeta while he stays in God form, so he's not that far from Vegeta God form in terms of power
That particular Gap is exaggerated, Rose Black isn’t 50x weaker than post RosAT Blue Vegeta but somewhere in between.
Again, it’s kinda the same situation as Namek. We know Grade 1 SSJ had stamina issues too (Obviously nowhere near as severe as SSJB’s, but still) yet we never really notice it during Goku vs Frieza because Frieza himself had even WORSE stamina problems.
I'll take your word on Vegeta overcoming the transformation drain by "training that hard" (I'm still a skeptical cause why did they all act like Vegeta was such an idiot for something he could do nothing about lol)
This cause of Vegeta training a ton and Goku still somewhat being his equal despite that?
It is literally stated he trained hard enough for it to not drain.
I am not denying that. I am stating the sharp drop in power (to being weaker than God) is from repeated transformations without training yourself adequately. The passive drain of Blue is unknown. It's just high enough to make a big difference. Again. Why would they use Blue over God in any fight if Blue became weaker than it in a few seconds of fighting? Whis specifically explains the issue is repeated transformations a day that caused that drop in power.
Black doesn't believe God Vegeta should be that capable. Trunks doesn't think it makes sense. Black realises Vegeta was transforming the entire time and this is how he was so fast and powerful. It is the entire narrative of the fight that God Vegeta fighting at that level is completely incomprehensible to the characters. That's why the twist of Vegeta turning Blue invisibly the entire time exists. To make the reader guess and surprise them. Again, Black specifically comments on the speed and power of God Vegeta and questions how it is even possible. That's to build up to the reveal of Vegeta using Blue the entire time.
I mean that it has mentions of increasing his strength and speef
Neat.
Yeah, I'm not saying Blue is weaker than God. I'm more against it being specifically x50 God form. Like I do think the Zamasu scene where he blitzes God Goku and Vegeta before they could go Blue is meant to showcase the flaw in the switch tactic, which is why both Goku and Vegeta stop using it and opt for Perfect Blue instead, which is shown to be better cause it can fight on-par with Zamasu you know?
Dragon Ball Landmark says his power and speed increase "several times", but a legitimate multiplier was denied because his Battle Power only increased from 24,000 to 30,000, which is only a difference of 1.25x (as opposed to 2x or even 3x).
Could be referring to his physical stats exclusively. In his normal form, Zarbon's opening move versus Vegeta was his Full Power Energy Wave, but after transforming, he only ever uses an energy attack as a decoy, near-exclusively overwhelming his opponent with his sheer size and brute strength and employing full-body charges and grapples. Granted, he also only fights a grand total of two times, but I digress.
As far as i know, there was no power level of Zarbon transformed
Ain't the only places that says his transformed form power level these ones:
Vegeta (Vs. Recoome), the same one that stomped Transformed Zarbon, had a PL of 30,000.
Yeah he was never given one, but his transformed state can't be any higher than about 30,000 since that's what Vegeta's power level was after recovering from his fight fight with Zarbon
Okay, but weren't we supposed to consider power levels here? I mean, Piccolo Jr. is x3, and Piccolo Daimao has 260.
Oh I seeVegeta (Vs. Recoome), the same one that stomped Transformed Zarbon, had a PL of 30,000.
Exactly, farmer with a shotgun, and average humans in general being 5 in PWL doesn't mean they downscale by 27.8 of Roshi blowing up the moon, that Roshi being orders of magnitudes more than 27.8x times stronger than them, not less
Pre-DBZ power levels are honestly kind of a mess. That said, I don't think we should automatically treat every "several times stronger" statement in DB as a minimum 3x increase. The boost Goku got from training with Korin was also described as making him "several times" stronger, yet it's explicitly only a x2 amp.
Hey there was a quadrillion of times FTL feat of Goku's gathering energy for the Genkidama across the universe in Buu saga?
I think they already did it and approved it
Which you can't prove. Blue is much faster than God. It's literally just stacking Super Saiyan on top of God form. Your argument is just, 'well it doesn't LOOK like it's 50x so it's probably not'. Pure vibes. No concrete evidence or scaling. It's even more apparent in the anime.
Yes, since Perfected Blue is literally just 100x percent of normal Blue all the time. At least as long as their bodies last.
I recall it was the math only, like needing a CRT of why is valid for scaling
Where was it described as several times? I don't remember
Post korin training Goku just has 2 conflicting multipliers statement that just the 2x was decided to be used (several times it's still supposed to be above 2x, at least 3x) they aren't even attached to power levels yet
This is false, it's leaving the form and entering it again that causes this massive drop, yes it drains ki quickly while fighting but nowhere this bad unless the user drops out of it and re enters it
Huh? I don't think you know what vibes are? My argument for why it's not x50 faster than God is that this fight would make zero sense if it was.
And what's 100% Blue? It's x50 God. Like Perfected Blue is literally just Blue without the stamina drain, it's not going to be higher than x50 God.
If it's 2 statements of several times then why was the 2x accepted over the at least 3x?
So your argument is..Goku Black not getting one shot? So vibes? That's exactly what I've been telling you lmao. Why would he need to die in One Shot exactly? You act like Dragon Ball characters can't take beatings from beings much stronger than they are. Especially in DBS. And it's not like Goku Black could even do anything to Blue Vegeta regardless. Vegeta was able to take a prolonged beating from Merged Zamasu who would be far stronger than a peak SSR Goku Black. Like I said, this is literally you not being able to believe it, with no concrete proof.Huh? I don't think you know what vibes are? My argument for why it's not x50 faster than God is that this fight would make zero sense if it was.
Like you no matter what approach you take for Goku Black's scaling it breaks.
Also no shit it doesn't work like that in the anime. Does anime Blue even have a major stamina issue lol
- Goku Black is closer to SSJB than to God: He would've blitzed Vegeta much like Zamasu did. I think you realize how ludicrous being x50 slower is of a speed gap. Vegeta, who was at most twice Cui’s speed, was already perception-blitzing him. God Vegeta wouldn't have been able to switch to Blue in the time it takes Black to nuke him.
- Goku Black is closer to God than to SSJB: Then Black would have died the second Vegeta did the switch and hit him. In this scenario Vegeta is almost x50 stronger than Black. There is no world where he's blocking the hits or hell just surviving for so long if that's the case.
And your point is? We can't really quantify the difference. All we know is that Blue does use a lot of energy, and using it multiple times (up until they mastered it) also drained their energy a shit ton. The latter more than the former ofc. But that's literally just every form lmfao. We aren't gonna sit here and say Super Saiyan wasn't a 50x multiplier until it was mastered. That's ludicrous.
From where you say that? The scouters still likely have different speed for sending information and they scanning power levels, if the later is what Goku can blitz
I think one guide says it does it in an instant
I'd personally favor more the blitz angle of it, like Goku Black outright stops a punch from Blue Vegeta here so do think he's closer to Blue than to God.
I think we can? This is how Vegeta performs against Fused Zamasu after supposedly overcoming the transformation drain thing Blue had, this is how Goku does.
