Rez
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It's stated they will need to alter the nature of mana to use it and mana is life force7) Law manipulation :
Neutral, leaning to disagree.
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It's stated they will need to alter the nature of mana to use it and mana is life force7) Law manipulation :
Neutral, leaning to disagree.
He only did that because he had access to Alien x abilities by using a fraction of his DNA@Gohanblanco217 the sword thing is literally Skurd's doing. Alien X already has body control so it's not gonna change anything for him.
words in plural also can mean a single one in context, its weird, but eh.What??
No he does that with literally all aliens that Ben has.He only did that because he had access to Alien x abilities by using a fraction of his DNA
Proofhe does that with literally all aliens that Ben has.
I agree with this proposal.Here's what the guide says :
"Alien x can create and destroy entire universes, so the risk is too great for Ben to use this upgrade again"
This implies that Alien x can create and destroy multiple universes but the thing is we don't know for sure if the statement was referring to Alien x being able to do that in one ago or in multiple attacks so if we low ball the statement it would be low 2-C at bare minimum to 2-C with mid/high ball therfore it would be safe if add a possibly 2-C rating basically like this :
"At least Low 2-C possibly 2-C"
I also remember alien X also recreated life after the universe's destruction in omniverse shouldn't that count for something?Eh, any being who Reality Warps the Universe technically has to manipulate Life as well, we don't give them Life Manipulation though. It has to be done directly or specifically mentioned to count.
That's literally a bad argument by that logic anyone who has access to an ability due to Reality warping shouldn't be accepted because it's done via Reality warping lol manipulating life force via any powers still give you Life manipulation that's how things always worked take Yogiri Takatou for example who has existence erasure that come from his Death manipulation and there are many characters who are treated like thisEh, any being who Reality Warps the Universe technically has to manipulate Life as well, we don't give them Life Manipulation though. It has to be done directly or specifically mentioned to count.
So it means you are also neutral about Conceptual manip, Law manip and Life manip?. I agree with what Every and Purgy have said.
destroying /Creating/affecting Life ≠ Life manipulation the reason why Alien x should have Life manip is because it was stated that he can manipulate it and change it's settings through the help of Reality warping skillI also remember alien X also recreated life after the universe's destruction in omniverse shouldn't that count for something?
Then that is life manip based on reality warping? just because it comes from RW doesnt mean the ability can be addedfdestroying /Creating/affecting Life ≠ Life manipulation the reason why Alien x should have Life manip is because it was stated that he can manipulate it and change it's settings through the help of Reality warping skill
How about Shapeshifting?Side-power of reality warping, seems redundant. Would be matter manipulation anyways.
Why Info manip ? Law manip seems more convenient lmaoNo expert on this, but I doubt it's more than one type of manipulation. When this was originally brought up it was agreed upon to be information manipulation.
Eh no but this would give X Soul manipulation I guess.is the substance of souls, maybe that helps for conceptual manipulation?
I already expressed my disagreement in the last thread about 2-C. The abilities idc about.Tagging @Zamasu_Chan here since he was researching the verse. I agree with what Every and Purgy have said.
Honestly Ant can you tag other mods who are experts on things like Plot manip, Law manip and Conceptual manip to give their input? Since I don't think Everything12 input is enough especially when his arguments about not adding Life manip just because it's done through the use of reality warping is a poor reasoning no offenseThank you for helping out Everything12. I suppose that your conclusions seem reasonable to apply.
So you don't mind a likely/possibly 2-C right? And what about the other hax and abilities?I disagree with the 2-C for the same reasons others said above. I'm aware that a certain other verse got away with an upgrade like that in the form of a Likely, I just don't mind them.
I don't know who are experts in those areas, since very few people write themselves down in our knowledgeable members list for this purpose, but I can send a notification to some of them:Honestly Ant can you tag other mods who are experts on things like Plot manip, Law manip and Conceptual manip to give their input? Since I don't think Everything12 input is enough especially when his arguments about not adding Life manip just because it's done through the use of reality warping is a poor reasoning no offense
Thank you it would be very helpfulI don't know who are experts in those areas, since very few people write themselves down in our knowledgeable members list for this purpose, but I can send a notification to some of them:
@SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Wokistan @Elizhaa
Would you be willing to help out here please?
Yeah but they weren't only able to change the art style of the show but they were also able to change the voice settings which is something that can be done only via Plot manip keep in mind that characters didn't even notice those changes since if it was just basic Reality Warping and Biological manip then the characters in the shows should've been aware about what happened to their appearance and voice which clearly proves that Celestialsapiens warped reality on a metafictional level unless you they just erased their memories which sounds.... WeirdNot exactly an expert on plot manipulation, but to me what's shown in the op just seems like reality warping + biological manipulation
I mean even if it was Reality warping it still doesn't really change the fact that they can still Mana (life force) so this should still give him Life manip via Reality warping.... No?Life manipulation just seems like reality warping, they can't directly affect mana, they do it by warping reality is what i am seeing.
Okay they can manipulate laws of life force via Reality warping it's still an ability tho that should be added in AX profile I don't think saying that it's just Reality warping is enough when their reality warping give them the ability to manipulate laws which would still give you law manipulation.Law manipulation again seems like reality warping.
I mean.... Wouldn't changing the universe to change the nature of an object qualify for Conceptual manip?Concept manipulation again seems like reality warping. Altering the universe is a vague explanation, I see no statements about altering the very concepts of the universe, just altering the universe, which reality warping fits.
The law manipulation is for altering mana which is life forceLife manipulation just seems like reality warping, they can't directly affect mana, they do it by warping reality is what i am seeing.
Law manipulation again seems like reality warping.
Oh I agree with it not being concept manipulation but I still think it is law manipulation mana in Ben 10 is the life energy that every living being possess and the source of all magic. Ledgerdomain an interdimensional realm is entirely composed of mana so altering or changing the nature of mana will affect all life forms, the very nature of magic or and it will also massively effect a entire different dimension as it is entirely composed of manaI don't think changing how the universe looks and sounds is plot manipulation, that can be accomplished with reality warping, but that's just my opinion.
Life manipulation via reality warping, sure.
Didn't see anything about the laws of life force being mentioned, just that by altering the universe they can indirectly alter mana, which apparently is life force, not some abstract concept or universal law.
The concept manipulation page mentions "Indirect manipulation of concepts, such as the universal changing of the object, does not qualify as conceptual manipulation. The use of Social Influencing or any non-supernatural power to achieve an alteration of a concept does not qualify as conceptual manipulation, as this is not a direct manipulation of the concept.."
Alien X isn't manipulating mana directly, he is indirectly changing it by changing the universe. Seems to fit into the category of not being concept manipulation to me.
I'm gonna try to add more evidence for Plot manip later but for now do you disagree or you are neutral?I don't think changing how the universe looks and sounds is plot manipulation, that can be accomplished with reality warping, but that's just my opinion.
Good so you agree adding Life manip based on Reality warping I guessLife manipulation via reality warping, sure
Wouldn't altering a universe to change the nature of an object count as law manipulation? Also what @Rez saidDidn't see anything about the laws of life force being mentioned, just that by altering the universe they can indirectly alter mana, which apparently is life force, not some abstract concept or universal law.
Should we add a note in AX profile that Celestialsapiens can manipulate the concept of Mana but not directly and add it as a weakness?Alien X isn't manipulating mana directly, he is indirectly changing it by changing the universe. Seems to fit into the category of not being concept manipulation to me.
What About plot manipulation? I added more evidence for it in OPFor Law Manipulation, I am neutral; generally, though, more evidences are still needed, when compared to precedence from other cases.
I am fine with what Celestial Pegasus's agreed to.
if this was just regular Reality warping characters in the show should've been aware about thier art style and voice being changed which would be almost impossible for them to know if the reality warping feat was done on a plot level not only that but also Celestialsapiens changing the universe caused serval plot holes and retcons in the showMy opinion on Plot Manipulation hasn't changed. Just because they changed the art style does not mean all plot inconsistencies can be attributed to them without proof.
I agree on this point. From what I read, there are no solid proofs that Celestialsapiens caused all the other changes like plot holes and retcons in the show.Just because they changed the art style does not mean all plot inconsistencies can be attributed to them without proof.
How there isn't solid proof? Then who made those retcons? Celestialsapiens are the one who has the ability to alter and change the universe all the time so they are the only who should've been responsible for the retcons in the show but even if all of that was just reality warping then characters in the show should've been aware that their appearance and voice got changed which they didn'tI agree on this point. From what I read, there are no solid proofs that Celestialsapiens caused all the other changes like plot holes and retcons in the show.