Alien x upgrade (possibly 2-C + abilities addition)

[Rez]

7) Law manipulation :

Neutral, leaning to disagree.

It's stated they will need to alter the nature of mana to use it and mana is life force

 

[Gohanblanco217]

@Gohanblanco217 the sword thing is literally Skurd's doing. Alien X already has body control so it's not gonna change anything for him.

He only did that because he had access to Alien x abilities by using a fraction of his DNA

 

[Bernkastelll]

What??

words in plural also can mean a single one in context, its weird, but eh.

 

[Greenshifter]

He only did that because he had access to Alien x abilities by using a fraction of his DNA

No he does that with literally all aliens that Ben has.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

he does that with literally all aliens that Ben has.

Proof

 

[Greenshifter]

Watch any episode of OV with Skurd in it...

 

[AKM sama]

Tagging @Zamasu_Chan here since he was researching the verse. I agree with what Every and Purgy have said.

 

[Teezar]

Here's what the guide says :
"Alien x can create and destroy entire universes, so the risk is too great for Ben to use this upgrade again"

This implies that Alien x can create and destroy multiple universes but the thing is we don't know for sure if the statement was referring to Alien x being able to do that in one ago or in multiple attacks so if we low ball the statement it would be low 2-C at bare minimum to 2-C with mid/high ball therfore it would be safe if add a possibly 2-C rating basically like this :

"At least Low 2-C possibly 2-C"

I agree with this proposal.

Eh, any being who Reality Warps the Universe technically has to manipulate Life as well, we don't give them Life Manipulation though. It has to be done directly or specifically mentioned to count.

I also remember alien X also recreated life after the universe's destruction in omniverse shouldn't that count for something?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Eh, any being who Reality Warps the Universe technically has to manipulate Life as well, we don't give them Life Manipulation though. It has to be done directly or specifically mentioned to count.

That's literally a bad argument by that logic anyone who has access to an ability due to Reality warping shouldn't be accepted because it's done via Reality warping lol manipulating life force via any powers still give you Life manipulation that's how things always worked take Yogiri Takatou for example who has existence erasure that come from his Death manipulation and there are many characters who are treated like this

 

[Gohanblanco217]

. I agree with what Every and Purgy have said.

So it means you are also neutral about Conceptual manip, Law manip and Life manip?

 

[Livinmeme]

agree in 2-C BTW

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I also remember alien X also recreated life after the universe's destruction in omniverse shouldn't that count for something?

destroying /Creating/affecting Life ≠ Life manipulation the reason why Alien x should have Life manip is because it was stated that he can manipulate it and change it's settings through the help of Reality warping skill

 

[Livinmeme]

destroying /Creating/affecting Life ≠ Life manipulation the reason why Alien x should have Life manip is because it was stated that he can manipulate it and change it's settings through the help of Reality warping skill

Then that is life manip based on reality warping? just because it comes from RW doesnt mean the ability can be addedf

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Side-power of reality warping, seems redundant. Would be matter manipulation anyways.

How about Shapeshifting?

No expert on this, but I doubt it's more than one type of manipulation. When this was originally brought up it was agreed upon to be information manipulation.

Why Info manip ? Law manip seems more convenient lmao

is the substance of souls, maybe that helps for conceptual manipulation?

Eh no but this would give X Soul manipulation I guess.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Tagging @Zamasu_Chan here since he was researching the verse. I agree with what Every and Purgy have said.

I already expressed my disagreement in the last thread about 2-C. The abilities idc about.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Small bump

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Thank you for helping out Everything12. I suppose that your conclusions seem reasonable to apply.

Honestly Ant can you tag other mods who are experts on things like Plot manip, Law manip and Conceptual manip to give their input? Since I don't think Everything12 input is enough especially when his arguments about not adding Life manip just because it's done through the use of reality warping is a poor reasoning no offense

 

[Eficiente]

I disagree with the 2-C for the same reasons others said above. I'm aware that a certain other verse got away with an upgrade like that in the form of a Likely, I just don't mind them.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I disagree with the 2-C for the same reasons others said above. I'm aware that a certain other verse got away with an upgrade like that in the form of a Likely, I just don't mind them.

So you don't mind a likely/possibly 2-C right? And what about the other hax and abilities?

 

[Eficiente]

No, I meant I don't have the willpower to go and disagree on what I believe is wrong in that other verse. If I can find the time, I will see over those P&A, I didn't see that and thus don't disagree with anything there.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Honestly Ant can you tag other mods who are experts on things like Plot manip, Law manip and Conceptual manip to give their input? Since I don't think Everything12 input is enough especially when his arguments about not adding Life manip just because it's done through the use of reality warping is a poor reasoning no offense

I don't know who are experts in those areas, since very few people write themselves down in our knowledgeable members list for this purpose, but I can send a notification to some of them:

@SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Wokistan @Elizhaa

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I don't know who are experts in those areas, since very few people write themselves down in our knowledgeable members list for this purpose, but I can send a notification to some of them:

@SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Wokistan @Elizhaa

Would you be willing to help out here please?

Thank you it would be very helpful

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Not knowledgeable about Alien X. Here is what i think though.

Being able to destroy universes is vague, does he destroy them one by one, how long does it take? He is already Low 2-C, so he could destroy them one by one.

Not exactly an expert on plot manipulation, but to me what's shown in the op just seems like reality warping + biological manipulation.

For forcefield bypassing, we don't really have an ability for this. Doesn't seem to explain how it's down either, could just be due to ap, or could be due to cutting space, who knows.

Weapon creation is fine.

Life manipulation just seems like reality warping, they can't directly affect mana, they do it by warping reality is what i am seeing.

Law manipulation again seems like reality warping.

Concept manipulation again seems like reality warping. Altering the universe is a vague explanation, I see no statements about altering the very concepts of the universe, just altering the universe, which reality warping fits.

Dimensional travel is fine.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Not exactly an expert on plot manipulation, but to me what's shown in the op just seems like reality warping + biological manipulation

Yeah but they weren't only able to change the art style of the show but they were also able to change the voice settings which is something that can be done only via Plot manip keep in mind that characters didn't even notice those changes since if it was just basic Reality Warping and Biological manip then the characters in the shows should've been aware about what happened to their appearance and voice which clearly proves that Celestialsapiens warped reality on a metafictional level unless you they just erased their memories which sounds.... Weird

Life manipulation just seems like reality warping, they can't directly affect mana, they do it by warping reality is what i am seeing.

I mean even if it was Reality warping it still doesn't really change the fact that they can still Mana (life force) so this should still give him Life manip via Reality warping.... No?

Law manipulation again seems like reality warping.

Okay they can manipulate laws of life force via Reality warping it's still an ability tho that should be added in AX profile I don't think saying that it's just Reality warping is enough when their reality warping give them the ability to manipulate laws which would still give you law manipulation.

Concept manipulation again seems like reality warping. Altering the universe is a vague explanation, I see no statements about altering the very concepts of the universe, just altering the universe, which reality warping fits.

I mean.... Wouldn't changing the universe to change the nature of an object qualify for Conceptual manip?

 

[Rez]

Life manipulation just seems like reality warping, they can't directly affect mana, they do it by warping reality is what i am seeing.

Law manipulation again seems like reality warping.

The law manipulation is for altering mana which is life force

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I don't think changing how the universe looks and sounds is plot manipulation, that can be accomplished with reality warping, but that's just my opinion.

Life manipulation via reality warping, sure.

Didn't see anything about the laws of life force being mentioned, just that by altering the universe they can indirectly alter mana, which apparently is life force, not some abstract concept or universal law.

The concept manipulation page mentions "Indirect manipulation of concepts, such as the universal changing of the object, does not qualify as conceptual manipulation. The use of Social Influencing or any non-supernatural power to achieve an alteration of a concept does not qualify as conceptual manipulation, as this is not a direct manipulation of the concept.."

Alien X isn't manipulating mana directly, he is indirectly changing it by changing the universe. Seems to fit into the category of not being concept manipulation to me.

 

[Rez]

I don't think changing how the universe looks and sounds is plot manipulation, that can be accomplished with reality warping, but that's just my opinion.

Life manipulation via reality warping, sure.

Didn't see anything about the laws of life force being mentioned, just that by altering the universe they can indirectly alter mana, which apparently is life force, not some abstract concept or universal law.

The concept manipulation page mentions "Indirect manipulation of concepts, such as the universal changing of the object, does not qualify as conceptual manipulation. The use of Social Influencing or any non-supernatural power to achieve an alteration of a concept does not qualify as conceptual manipulation, as this is not a direct manipulation of the concept.."

Alien X isn't manipulating mana directly, he is indirectly changing it by changing the universe. Seems to fit into the category of not being concept manipulation to me.

Oh I agree with it not being concept manipulation but I still think it is law manipulation mana in Ben 10 is the life energy that every living being possess and the source of all magic. Ledgerdomain an interdimensional realm is entirely composed of mana so altering or changing the nature of mana will affect all life forms, the very nature of magic or and it will also massively effect a entire different dimension as it is entirely composed of mana

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I don't think changing how the universe looks and sounds is plot manipulation, that can be accomplished with reality warping, but that's just my opinion.

I'm gonna try to add more evidence for Plot manip later but for now do you disagree or you are neutral?

Life manipulation via reality warping, sure

Good so you agree adding Life manip based on Reality warping I guess

Didn't see anything about the laws of life force being mentioned, just that by altering the universe they can indirectly alter mana, which apparently is life force, not some abstract concept or universal law.

Wouldn't altering a universe to change the nature of an object count as law manipulation? Also what @Rez said

Alien X isn't manipulating mana directly, he is indirectly changing it by changing the universe. Seems to fit into the category of not being concept manipulation to me.

Should we add a note in AX profile that Celestialsapiens can manipulate the concept of Mana but not directly and add it as a weakness?

 

[Antvasima]

Celestial's evaluations make sense to me. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Elizhaa]

For Law Manipulation, I am neutral; generally, though, more evidences are still needed, when compared to precedence from other cases.

I am fine with what Celestial Pegasus's agreed to.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

For Law Manipulation, I am neutral; generally, though, more evidences are still needed, when compared to precedence from other cases.

I am fine with what Celestial Pegasus's agreed to.

What About plot manipulation? I added more evidence for it in OP

 

[Everything12]

My opinion on Plot Manipulation hasn't changed. Just because they changed the art style does not mean all plot inconsistencies can be attributed to them without proof.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

My opinion on Plot Manipulation hasn't changed. Just because they changed the art style does not mean all plot inconsistencies can be attributed to them without proof.

if this was just regular Reality warping characters in the show should've been aware about thier art style and voice being changed which would be almost impossible for them to know if the reality warping feat was done on a plot level not only that but also Celestialsapiens changing the universe caused serval plot holes and retcons in the show

 

[Elizhaa]

Just because they changed the art style does not mean all plot inconsistencies can be attributed to them without proof.

I agree on this point. From what I read, there are no solid proofs that Celestialsapiens caused all the other changes like plot holes and retcons in the show.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I agree on this point. From what I read, there are no solid proofs that Celestialsapiens caused all the other changes like plot holes and retcons in the show.

How there isn't solid proof? Then who made those retcons? Celestialsapiens are the one who has the ability to alter and change the universe all the time so they are the only who should've been responsible for the retcons in the show but even if all of that was just reality warping then characters in the show should've been aware that their appearance and voice got changed which they didn't

 

[Everything12]

How about the real-life studio.

 

[Elizhaa]

There is a statement from a writer that says the writers or people working on the series pick stuff they like and ignore others for continuity that can cause plot holes and retcons; it is not solid enough to me to say all these kinds of changes are from Celestialsapiens.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Well..... Considering characters in the show were unaware about their appearance and voice being changed then shouldn't this give Celestialsapiens Memory erasure ?

 

[Elizhaa]

It could be from their Mind Manipulation or Reality Warping that others think biological changes are normal. I don't see solid proofs of Memory Manipulation since the erasure of memories isn't elaborated or brought up in these cases.