Alien x upgrade (possibly 2-C + abilities addition)

[Bernkastelll]

Just wanna point out it's not an simple change in appearance they are changing the overall artstyle of the show

Then Matter/Biological Manip, if it is not acknowledgeable that it is part of a narrative, then it cannot be plot manip, because it would just be the celestial sapiens affecting the Universe, as someone with reality warping/matter manip can do

 

[Rez]

Also the characters are completely unaware of these changes up until this particular episode where chadzmuth somehow found picture of Azmuth from previous series which should be impossible since evertime any picture or scene from an previous series comes up they have their artstyle changed to match the current series

 

[Greenshifter]

Actually, no, it would be valid if it is acknowledgeable as part of the plot

I mean when is a visual or a speech bubble ever acknowledged to be a part of the plot?

 

[Vietthai96]

i think it is more like limited Reality Warping to me, cuz it change the artstyle

I mean when is a visual or a speech bubble ever acknowledged to be a part of the plot?

No, if you change the content inside the bubble then it is plot manip, if you just change the appearance of the bubble then no

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

i find it a bit weird that celestialsapiens so powerful are still effected by things like life force manipulation, toepicks face, and more.

so powerful yet can still have plenty of weaknesses.

i just find it strange that's all.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I mean when is a visual or a speech bubble ever acknowledged to be a part of the plot?

There has cases, like Doki Doki Literature Club

Also the characters are completely unaware of these changes up until this particular episode where chadzmuth somehow found picture of Azmuth from previous series which should be impossible since evertime any picture or scene from an previous series comes up they have their artstyle changed to match the current series

Nothing here proves plot manip, in fact, thats just matter/biological manip, changing the design of the universe doesnt means plot hax after all

 

[Greenshifter]

i think it is more like limited Reality Warping to me

Almost as if Plot manipulation is a literal subset of reality warping.

life force manipulation and toepicks face

1 is contradicted and the other is made by an art director and btw Toepick's ability is literally being ugly.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Almost as if Plot manipulation is a literal subset of reality warping.

1 is contradicted and the other is made by an art director.

i meant anur vladias

 

[Rez]

Ok than I fine with matter manipulation and matter manipulation that can change the appearance of multiple universes is way more combat applicable than plot manipulation that can change the artstyle

 

[Greenshifter]

There has cases, like Doki Doki Literature Club

Pretty sure you can get plot manipulation by changing speech bubbles without it being acknowledged to be part of the narrative.

 

[Greenshifter]

i meant anur vladias

Yeah that's a WoG that should be contradicted by the location of Alien X's souls, but that's derailing for this thread so I ain't gonna elaborate.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Almost as if Plot manipulation is a literal subset of reality warping.

But the point is because Plot Manipulation is when the narrative is changed, just changing the design of the universe is not plot hax

Pretty sure you can get plot manipulation by changing speech bubbles without it being acknowledged to be part of the narrative.

Indeed you can, but affecting the speech bubbles is literally affecting the narrative, Celestialsapiens case is just a change of the design, which fits into Matter/BIological hax

 

[Antvasima]

Bernkastelll is correct. All of these changes could be done via regular reality warping without affecting the narrative itself on a metafictional level.

 

[Greenshifter]

But the point is because Plot Manipulation is when the narrative is changed, just changing the design of the universe is not plot hax

I'm just going by the definition you know, changing the setting and speech bubbles seems close enough to what the Celestialsapiens did.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

If it wasn't plot manipulation then how the hell the characters weren't aware about their appearance and voice being changed? Also are we gonna ignore the fact that Celestialsapiens Art style and voice changing caused serval plot holes and retcons ?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

If it wasn't plot manipulation then how the hell the characters weren't aware about their appearance and voice being changed? Also are we gonna ignore the fact that Celestialsapiens Art style and voice changing caused serval plot holes?

Don't the celestesapiens have mind manip?

 

[Bernkastelll]

I'm just going by the definition you know, changing the setting and speech bubbles seems close enough to what the Celestialsapiens did.

But changing the speech bubbles is proof that a part of the narrative is being changed due a metafictional ability, like what Monika can do, she can directly affect the game settings, as stated by herself, she can even delete the characters files that are in your computer, but Celestialsapiens case, again, it is not acknowledgeable that it is due a meta-fictional hax, it can be just matter hax, which is a logic way to think, as the video itself shows that it was due the power of celestialsapiens to literally make changes in the universe, if we are going to give the Plot Hax rating to all characters that have stuff like matter, biological and transmutation, it would be a really long stretch that is not right

If it wasn't plot manipulation then how the hell the characters weren't aware about their appearance and voice being changed? Also are we gonna ignore the fact that Celestialsapiens Art style and voice changing caused serval plot holes and retcons ?

Matter Hax + Mind Manip + Changes in the universe?

 

[Greenshifter]

If it wasn't plot manipulation then how the hell the characters weren't aware about their appearance and voice being changed? Also are we gonna ignore the fact that Celestialsapiens Art style and voice changing caused serval plot holes and retcons ?

You could argue it's RW on a 4D scale, but then Chadzmuth shouldn't have gotten access to those pictures of Azmuth, unless he used a second temporal dimension of sorts to look at previous iterations of the multiverse.

 

[Greenshifter]

Mind Manip

Bold claim to assume AX can mindhax the entire multiverse.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Bold claim to assume AX can mindhax the entire multiverse.

Their powers are literally stated to make changes in the universe, so, yeah

 

[Antvasima]

Plot manipulation is not going to be accepted due to already stated reasons. I am far too overworked to keep repeating myself here over and over. Please drop the subject and focus on other areas instead.

 

[Greenshifter]

So it's either mindhax on a multiversal scale or 2 temporal dimensions exist in the verse. Both work for me.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Matter Hax + Mind Manip + Changes in the universe?

Yeah all of that except of Mind manip because that's literally an assumption it should be Plot manip instead because when you use Plot hax to change an event no one should be aware of that which is the case for Celestialsapiens Art style and voice changing

 

[Bernkastelll]

So it's either mindhax on a multiversal scale or 2 temporal dimensions exist in the verse. Both work for me.

It can work, yeah, Alien X with his mind alone can recreate the universe, and despite the statement of ''create/destroy universes'' being overtime or not, he still can affect others universes with his mind, so yeah, mind hax in a multiversal scale is not really a problem

Yeah all of that except of Mind manip because that's literally an assumption it should be Plot manip instead because when you use Plot hax to change an event no one should be aware of that which is the case for Celestialsapiens Art style and voice changing

I already explained this

 

[Everything12]

1)Possibly 2-C :

I disagree, entire Universes can just mean one Universe.

2)limited plot manip :

Disagree, I'll go with what the other say. Could just be basic Reality Warping

3) Biological manip :

Disagree, not enough evidence. Could just be shapeshifting.


4)Forcefield bypassing/Negation :

Sure.

5)Dimensional travel :

I see no problem here, but this shouldn't scale to Reboot Alien X travelling between Universes before anyone gets any ideas. OG Alien X never showed that as far as I know.


6) Life manipulation :

Disagree, if they can't change it directly then they don't get Life Manipulation. It's just another facet of their Reality Warping.

7) Law manipulation :

Neutral, leaning to disagree.

8)conceptual manipulation :

Disagree. This is not evidence for manipulating a Concept.

9)weapon creation :

Disagree, I don't think this is enough proof.

Uni/Multiverse Mind hax

Disagree, not enough proof. Just speculation that he does Universal stuff so this should be Universal as well. And them changing the art style and no one recognising it does not feel like proof to me just doesn't feel firm enough evidence even for a possibility.

 

[Rez]

Don't the celestesapiens have mind manip?

Are you implying their mind manipulation is multiverse level

 

[Greenshifter]

So instead of plot hax we give him multiversal mindhax then?

 

[Bernkastelll]

So instead of plot hax we give him multiversal mindhax then?

multiversal range mindhax can work, if no character across the multiverse remember of the changes that the Celestialsapiens made in their own body/life/surroundings, yeah

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Everything12. I suppose that your conclusions seem reasonable to apply.

 

[Greenshifter]

OG Alien X never showed that as far as I know

Celestialsapiens did, no idea why Blanco brought up Reboot.

Disagree, if they can't change it directly then they don't get Life Manipulation. It's just another facet of their Reality Warping.

Oh ok, wouldn't they still be changing life after changing how mana works though?

 

[Greenshifter]

multiversal range mindhax can work, if no character across the multiverse remember of the changes that the Celestialsapiens made in their own body/life/surroundings, yeah

No-one brought it up until Chadzmuth did.

 

[Everything12]

Technically, but that technically wouldn't be enough for Life Manipulation if the staff who said it is said they couldn't do it besides said Reality Warping.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'll look at the haxes in a bit, but for now, im disagreeing with any 2-C upgrade. including possibly.

While the guide says "universes" and uses it in plural form, the issue with the OP's argument is that in order for characters here to actually get 2-C, in any way shape or form, our standards explicitly require them to prove the character can effect more than one universal space-time continuum at once. Something that this Ben 10 guide does not do the job in proving for Alien X/Celestialsapiens.

Sure, it mentions "universes", but in this context, it can just be referring to how Ben used Alien X to reset the universe with an exact replica, therefore Alien X is able to create new "universes", but not in the sense that it can destroy/recreate multiple ones at once. Or how the OP already mentioned, it could take Alien X an unspecified amount of time to create/destroy multiple universes.

Case end point, the argument for 2-C leaves open too many variables open for interpretation that could mean 2-C depending on said interpretation. But it's ultimately speculation, and without something more concrete than a simple guide which leaves open loosely interpreted context at best, I don't agree with using it as the only basis for a big upgrade like this.

 

[Greenshifter]

Hmm ok, maybe Life manipulation via Information manipulation would work? Since that way we can still detail that they can indirectly manipulate life.

 

[PrinceofPein]

1)Possibly 2-C upgrade :

Here's what the guide says :
"Alien x can create and destroy entire universes, so the risk is too great for Ben to use this upgrade again"

This implies that Alien x can create and destroy multiple universes but the thing is we don't know for sure if the statement was referring to Alien x being able to do that in one ago or in multiple attacks so if we low ball the statement it would be low 2-C at bare minimum to 2-C with mid/high ball therfore it would be safe if add a possibly 2-C rating basically like this :

"At least Low 2-C possibly 2-C"

DISAGREE NOT ENOUGH CONTEXTS

2) Abilities addition :

• Limited Plot manipulation : basically in this video it was stated that Celestialsapiens are responsible for the art style and voice actors in the show (basically changing their settings) and it was stated that that they did that at least 3 times

NEUTRAL

Biological manipulation : as shown/stated in the video above Celestialsapiens can reshape things or change their biological physiology into whatever they wish which is something that was demonstrated countless of times in the show.

NEUTRAL ALSO

• Forcefield Bypassing/Negation : as seen here a fraction of Alien x DNA was able to break through an extra dimensional barrier like a butter.

DISAGREE, THAT WAS SIMPLY BREAKING IT, YOU DONT GET WALL NEGATION BY BREAKING A WALL OR CREATING A HOLE IN ONE WITH FORCE

• Weapon Creation : as seen here.... Okay yeah I know many people would say that Skurd was responsible for this but here's the thing you could literally argue that this comes from the fact that Skurd has access to a fraction of Alien x DNA which means he has access to some of Alien x abilities such us Body control and this allowed to Skurd to shape Ben's hand into a sword heck we've also seen Alien x from the Reboot version being able to turn his hand into a sword.

THIS SEEMS FINE

Life manipulation : it was implied that Celestialsapiens can control Mana but not directly.

DISAGREE, TOO SHAKY

Law manipulation : in the same scan it was implied that Celestialsapiens not only they can manipulate Mana but they can also change the nature of how Mana works.

WELL THIS SEEMS FINE DEPENDING ON THE CONTEXT, IF THEY CAN CHANGE THE WAY MANA WORKS

Conceptual manipulation : as stated above Celestialsapiens can't manipulate Mana directly they need to alter reality on a Universal scale and then change how how Mana works and it's nature.

NEUTRAL ON THIS

• Dimensional Travel : ah yeah i really don't know why this hasn't been added to AX profile yet it was implied many times that Celestialsapiens can travel anywhere they want in the multiverse including the Forge of Creation (a dimension that no one has access to except if you are a Paradox or you possess the map of infinity or you're a Celestialsapien) heck even AX from reboot has shown the ability to dimensional travel like seriously.

NEUTRAL

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I disagree, entire Universes can just mean one Universe.

What??

Disagree, I'll go with what the other say. Could just be basic Reality Warping

And Plot manip is basically Reality warping

Disagree, not enough evidence. Could just be shapeshifting.

Well this could work to

I see no problem here, but this shouldn't scale to Reboot Alien X travelling between Universes before anyone gets any ideas

I just used Alien x reboot as a supporting evidence.

isagree, if they can't change it directly then they don't get Life Manipulation. It's just another facet of their Reality Warping.

They can but they first need to alter the universe in order to manipulate it which still gives you Life manipulation

Neutral, leaning to disagree

And the reasons are? It's literally stated that they can change the nature of how Mana works

Disagree. This is not evidence for manipulating

It does tho they need to alter the whole Universe in order to change the concept of how Mana works which is how Conceptual manip works in general heck even the page justification made it clear.

Disagree, I don't think this is enough proof

He literally created a sword by visual feats alone.....

 

[Everything12]

Eh, any being who Reality Warps the Universe technically has to manipulate Life as well, we don't give them Life Manipulation though. It has to be done directly or specifically mentioned to count.

 

[Rez]

Technically, but that technically wouldn't be enough for Life Manipulation if the staff who said it is said they couldn't do it besides said Reality Warping.

They said alien x will first need to alter the universe to use mana and mana in Ben 10 is life force so it should qualify for life manipulation and law manipulation

 

[Greenshifter]

@Everything12 Alright then.
@Gohanblanco217 the sword thing is literally Skurd's doing. Alien X already has body control so it's not gonna change anything for him.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I disagree, entire Universes can just mean one Universe.

What??

Disagree, I'll go with what the other say. Could just be basic Reality Warping

And Plot manip is basically Reality warping

Disagree, not enough evidence. Could just be shapeshifting.

Well this could work to

I see no problem here, but this shouldn't scale to Reboot Alien X travelling between Universes before anyone gets any ideas

I just used Alien x reboot as a supporting evidence but yeah not like it's needed

isagree, if they can't change it directly then they don't get Life Manipulation. It's just another facet of their Reality Warping.

They can but they first need to alter the universe in order to manipulate it which still gives you Life manipulation

Neutral, leaning to disagree

And the reasons are? It's literally stated that they can change the nature of how Mana works

Disagree. This is not evidence for manipulating

It does tho they need to alter the whole Universe in order to change the concept of how Mana works which is how Conceptual manip works in general heck even the page justification made it clear.

Disagree, I don't think this is enough proof

He literally created a sword by