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Alien X downgrade :/

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I think the downgrade looks fine. This is gonna be a very spicy thread uwu
 
A statement apparently. I believe it was the whole "Blink and you are gone" shit. And people thought it was thought based as well, despite no feats.
 
I vaguely remember being explicitly against the "bye bye" stamenet being used for, like, anything. Because of how poetic the statement is.

Celestialsapiens are literally universe destroyers compared to Kevin and such, ofc they can blink fodder away. Has nothing to do with existence erasure.
 
@Zamasu_Chan
It would appear that you are not looking at the bigger picture of the series.

Ben Again was aired on January 19, 2013. In this episode, we saw that the Chrono Navigator can destroy all of time and causality. Following this, the audience would question if Alien X was as powerful as described back in Ultimate Alien.

Later that same year on September 13, 2013, Q&A With Matt Wayne was posted.
  • Q: If Serena and Bellicus agree, is Alien X omnipotent?
  • A: In this universe.
    • As all Celestialsapiens are born in the Forge of Creation that is outside the branching timelines, he is referring to the Ben 10 verse as a whole.
  • Q: 2. Like actually omnipotent? They can do ANYTHING they want if 2 out of 3 personalities agree?
  • A: Yes, but usually they're deadlocked, one to one.
It's reasonable that he is including Multuiversal Destruction since they just wrote said threat in the earlier season and the emphasis on anything. They even have the threat of Multiversal Destruction happen again less than a month later on October 6, 2014 in And Then There Were None.

This perception of Celestials being top tier in the verse is reinforced by the writers on October 27, 2012 in So Long, and Thanks for All the Smoothies with
  • "I put it to you ladies and gentle aliens and not so gentle aliens, is it right to hold one scrawny little human responsible for the misdeeds of an entire species of omnipotent beings?"
This is again reinforced by the writers on October 17 2014 in Weapon XI: Part 2
  • Servantis: With that weapon on his wrist, he can turn into a Tokust'ar or perhaps even a Celestialsapien. This grimy child could one day just wish everything out of existence.
  • Servantis: You think this omnipotent monster is the good guy.?!
Regarding the Chrono Navigator, it's a situation that permeates powerful verses. Once you start dealing with affecting entire timelines or even higher dimensions, the line differentiating AP and powerful hax is blurred. Affecting an entire multiverse with just raw power and without any form of hax, in general, is unlikely.

Regarding Atomic X, it's just gene splicing, not a true fusion. Since Atomic-X is made through gene splicing, it's reasonable that Atomic X would be weaker than Alien X. It's like having one parent with good genes and one with bad genes. The product would be somewhere in the middle. This is especially shown when Atomic X gets taken out by Maltruant.

Why would the writers have Maltruant takedown Atomic X if they intended for Atomic X to be just as powerful as Alien X? It's more reasonable that Atomic X isn't as strong as Alien X.

Regarding the CTB and Atomic X. I believe that seeing Atomic-X being taken down by Maltruant is more reliable compared to analyzing intent from a failed attempt by Atomic X during a time loop/reboot scenario.

Also, the failsafe was retconned in on November 14, 2014 in A New Dawn at the end of the series.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
tf? Then where does EE come from?
Click to expand...

This comes from Servantis statement of Celestialpaiens blinking characters out of existence.It was taken as EE statement

Ths downgrade is interesting.I will stay out of this for now.I will just observe the arguments
 
.
Firestorm808 said:
Regarding Atomic X, it's just gene splicing, not a true fusion. Since Atomic-X is made through gene splicing, it's reasonable that Atomic X would be weaker than Alien X. It's like having one parent with good genes and one with bad genes. The product would be somewhere in the middle. This is especially shown when Atomic X gets taken out by Maltruant.
Click to expand...

May I get the source which explains how Ben 10 fusion works like?
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Zamasu_Chan
It would appear that you are not looking at the bigger picture of the series.

Ben Again was aired on January 19, 2013. In this episode, we saw that the Chrono Navigator can destroy all of time and causality. Following this, the audience would question if Alien X was as powerful as described back in Ultimate Alien.

Later that same year on September 13, 2013, Q&A With Matt Wayne was posted.
  • Q: If Serena and Bellicus agree, is Alien X omnipotent?
  • A: In this universe.
    • As all Celestialsapiens are born in the Forge of Creation that is outside the branching timelines, he is referring to the Ben 10 verse as a whole.
  • Q: 2. Like actually omnipotent? They can do ANYTHING they want if 2 out of 3 personalities agree?
  • A: Yes, but usually they're deadlocked, one to one.
Click to expand...
This is a moot point considering I literally explained why the “greatest power” statements were taken out of context.
Firestorm808 said:
It's reasonable that he is including Multuiversal Destruction since they just wrote said threat in the earlier season and the emphasis on anything. They even have the threat of Multiversal Destruction happen again less than a month later on October 6, 2014 in And Then There Were None.
Click to expand...
Being called omnipotent doesn’t mean you’re multiversal. I shouldn’t have to explain this to you of all people.
Firestorm808 said:
This perception of Celestials being top tier in the verse is reinforced by the writers on October 27, 2012 in So Long, and Thanks for All the Smoothies with
  • "I put it to you ladies and gentle aliens and not so gentle aliens, is it right to hold one scrawny little human responsible for the misdeeds of an entire species of omnipotent beings?"
Click to expand...
Again. Omnipotent is a fallacious term we never use to justify a tier.
Firestorm808 said:
This is again reinforced by the writers on October 17 2014 in Weapon XI: Part 2
  • Servantis: With that weapon on his wrist, he can turn into a Tokust'ar or perhaps even a Celestialsapien. This grimy child could one day just wish everything out of existence.
  • Servantis: You think this omnipotent monster is the good guy.?!
Click to expand...
Servantis, a walking talking deceiver, saying Alien X could wipe out all of creation and using omnipotence in the same scene is literally the definition of hyperbole.
Firestorm808 said:
Regarding the Chrono Navigator, it's a situation that permeates powerful verses. Once you start dealing with affecting entire timelines or even higher dimensions, the line differentiating AP and powerful hax is blurred. Affecting an entire multiverse with just raw power and without any form of hax, in general, is unlikely.
Click to expand...
I don’t even know what you’re trying to say here. The Chrono Navigator cannot destroy the entire multiverse in a single attack. It only does that by opening holes in space time and destroying the multiverse over time.
Firestorm808 said:
Regarding Atomic X, it's just gene splicing, not a true fusion. Since Atomic-X is made through gene splicing, it's reasonable that Atomic X would be weaker than Alien X. It's like having one parent with good genes and one with bad genes. The product would be somewhere in the middle. This is especially shown when Atomic X gets taken out by Maltruant.
Click to expand...
Fam. I already explained why even Maltruant harming regular Atomix is dumb. And you can’t just divide infinity kek.
Firestorm808 said:
Why would the writers have Maltruant takedown Atomic X if they intended for Atomic X to be just as powerful as Alien X? It's more reasonable that Atomic X isn't as strong as Alien X.
Click to expand...
Because the writers are stupid when it comes to power scaling. Diamondhead was shown to harm Malgax and wasn’t shattered by him when launched to Galvan B. Malgax > Atomix >> Ultimate Humungousaur >>>>>>>>>>> Humungousaur >= Diamondhead. Do you see the inconsistency? I could make a whole blog about Ben 10 asinine scaling inconsistencies.
Firestorm808 said:
Regarding the CTB and Atomic X. I believe that seeing Atomic-X being taken down by Maltruant is more reliable compared to analyzing intent from a failed attempt by Atomic X during a time loop/reboot scenario.
Click to expand...
You saying you believe doesn’t mean squat. ******* Vilgax should be stronger than Maltruant but Atomic X stomped him with a flick. How come Maltruant harming Atomic X suddenly reliable?
Firestorm808 said:
Also, the failsafe was retconned in on November 14, 2014 in A New Dawn at the end of the series.
Click to expand...
Ben Tennyson: Nah. I always figured the Omnitrix had a failsafe that wouldn't let me die, and sure enough, it kicked in right when the big bang started -- gave me just the alien I needed.

Where are you getting this “retcon” headcanon from my guy? Also why would past Ben have a failsafe but not future Ben?

This entire post of yours were mainly composed of past arguments I literally debunked in my OP. It’s almost like you barely read the whole thing.
 
Firestorm808 said:
This perception of Celestials being top tier in the verse is reinforced by the writers on October 27, 2012 in So Long, and Thanks for All the Smoothies with
  • "I put it to you ladies and gentle aliens and not so gentle aliens, is it right to hold one scrawny little human responsible for the misdeeds of an entire species of omnipotent beings?“
Click to expand...
This is misleading. This quote actually comes from a Galvan Lawyer. A lawyer who’s trying to appeal to the Celestialsapiens to get them to not fine Ben, similar to how real life Lawyers try to sway the opinions of a jury. Even if Omnipotent was not an accepted term for power scaling, even though most Galvans are Geniuses, I’d wager we can’t accept this statement because it comes from an untrustworthy source. Of course he’d try to appeal to the Celestialsapiens. It’s in the interest of his client.
 
Not arguing for Atomic X strength in relation to Alien X but found out Derrick J watt statement of agreeing with fusions of Alien X being as dangerous as Alien X.I know Derrick isn't so much reliable and all but I am just throwing it out there as it can be used if its supported by statements and depication in the series.Also dangerous here is clearly referring to strength as well as abilites so it would be nonsensical to agree with infinitely weaker alien fusion being as dangerous as Alien X if all it has were abilites of Alien X

ben10.fandom.com

Ben 10 Wiki

Ben 10 Planet is the ultimate Ben 10 resource where anyone can edit and learn about the vast universe of Ben 10!
ben10.fandom.com ben10.fandom.com

Now this is also Derrick statement but he said that Atomic X has same powers as Alien X.While this directly implies that they have same abilites(except for resistance with time manipulation),it can be argued that powers extends to AP as well though if I find the question of the statement then it will help clarify the context of powers better

ben10.fandom.com

Ben 10 Wiki

Ben 10 Planet is the ultimate Ben 10 resource where anyone can edit and learn about the vast universe of Ben 10!
ben10.fandom.com ben10.fandom.com

So these are just interesting finds I found about Atomic X strength in comparison to Alien X.Use it and argue about it as you will
 
@Zamasu_Chan

Dude, chill.

In the context that the writing team using with its episodes before and after the statement, doing "anything" includes multiversal destruction.

I'm not using "omnipotence" to mark a tier, I'm just saying that the writers are consistent about having their characters describe celestials as being the top of the verse.

By definition, the failsafe addition is a retcon: a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.

@Daddybrawl

My point is that the writers are consistently having their characters describe celestials as being the top of the verse.
 
I don’t think what matters is how the Writers think a character is. Writers can oftentimes portray a character weaker, or stronger, than intended. What matters is how they express it- and when they express it through unreliable characters and/or sources, I don’t think we should accept it.

Even with the other statements, I'm under the impression that they’re expressing the power that way in the impression that Aggregor’s the ‘Big Bad’. The #1 enemy, they lose and they lose forever, no redos. In fact, I think I recall Azmuth even stating Vilgax Omnipotent once, it’s nothing new to say a Villain’s Omnipotent. That’s why we don’t use it for scaling.
 
@Daddybrawl

I'm talking about the consistency of its use by both the writers and the show regarding the Celestials. Also, I have my doubts about the writers using that word for Vilgax.
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Zamasu_Chan

Dude, chill.

In the context that the writing team using with its episodes before and after the statement, doing "anything" includes multiversal destruction.
Click to expand...
“Do anything” is literally a reference to his powers. If I can turn my thoughts into reality then “do anything” is a good way to describe it.
Firestorm808 said:
I'm not using "omnipotence" to mark a tier, I'm just saying that the writers are consistent about having their characters describe celestials as being the top of the verse.
Click to expand...
Which is still fallacious. Omnipotence is in reference to their RW.
Firestorm808 said:
By definition, the failsafe addition is a retcon: a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.
Click to expand...
Ben’s had a fail safe since he first had the Omnitrix. Ben 10k should absolutely have it.
Firestorm808 said:
@Daddybrawl

My point is that the writers are consistently having their characters describe celestials as being the top of the verse.
Click to expand...
Basically repeating what you said ad nausea.
 
@Firestorm808

I don’t think the consistency of its use matters, rather, the times it has actually been shown to be more powerful. Let’s not forget that the Authors almost never collaborate, they contradict themselves all the time and many have different ideas on what’s-what. With so many different ‘Authors’ in the show, I don’t think we can really rely purely on what the Authors ‘Think‘, and we should focus more on what’s happening in the story. And, in the story, Celestialsapiens have never shown power on-par with the Chrono-Navigator. The only time they come close is with Paradox’s Statement, and that’s kind of bunk for reasons we all provided.

Also yeah, I have no scans for that lol. I won’t push on that, I admit I have no clue if that actually happened or I just made it up.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Omnipotence in the context that they're using is just that they're dumb powerful reality warpers, from what I can see all the characters calling Alien X omnipotent aren't even Low 2-C, so of course from non-Low 2-Cs standpoint a Low 2-C reality warper being would be omnipotent.
Click to expand...
Not to mention they dont even know the true defintiion or point of what omnipotence means, even in a non-literal sense, since people in the verse are aware of Celestialsapiens being a species. How they can call a species omnipoent when there being more than one "omnipotent" alien is, in and of itself, counter intuitive?

And when I say the "defintion of Omnipotence", I dont mean literal omnipotence but the vague typical meaning of "top of the food chain" strongest being in their world. Seems very silly to throw that word around when it loses its meaning more times than a CRT thread is made.
 
I dont even agree with omnipotence in Ben 10 being interpreted as anything more than literal omnipotence(Omnipotence statements should hence be discarded) unlike how its interpreted in this wiki but oh well.
 
Zamasu does makes more sense here. Definition of omnipotence aside, Alien X has one good showing of Low 2-C against multiple statements strung together to make a case for 2-B.

I was always against the idea for 2-B Alien X due to the amount of mental backflips that were involved. Low 2-C is the safest and most accurate rating we have seen to date and I'm for this revision.
 
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Finally. I never got how we managed to let such faulty statements give Alien X 2-B AP and EE of all things. Reiterating what's been said, Omnipotence statements should never be the be all end all of scaling, especially considering how a universe destroying reality warper would definitely fit the bill from the perspective of lower beings.

This was honestly a long time coming. Agree with the downgrades.
 
@Zamasu_Chan

In regards to dividing infinities, it doesn't contradict because of the degrees of infinities. Let's say we had two of a character with "infinite" power and we halved the power of one of them. While both technically have infinite power, one is still only half a degree of infinity and would be weaker in comparison.

2-B goes up to any higher finite amount of separate space-time continuums.

If Atomic X was 1/2 as powerful as Alien X, then Atomic X dying to a 2-B CTB wouldn't contradict a 2-B Alien X.
 
Wooooow, we already got like 3 Ben 10 CRT’s going on. Couldn’t have given a heads up or something? Guess I have no choice but to address everything later but Jesus what is this even? We were gonna discuss Chrono Navigator after my cosmology thread since one depends on the other.
 
Firestorm808 said:
If Atomic X was 1/2 as powerful as Alien X, then Atomic X dying to a 2-B CTB wouldn't contradict a 2-B Alien X
Click to expand...
Not to mention that Alien X doesn’t have EE resistance. So in other words, we’re again discussing something even the opposition agrees with (CTB has EE) with it not applied on the page, wouldn’t it be easier to first apply it?

Also @Zamasu_Chan saying that the writers don’t know anything about powerscaling and that thus Atomic-X getting defeated by Maltruant is valid. You might as well argue that Alien X himself is High 5-A or put everyone at unknown, what kind of an argument is that even? Also practically no-one managed to hurt Maltruant in that fight (especially base Ben 10000 didn’t and everyone else scales but barely) so if you wanna upgrade Atomic-X to Low 2-C, then also upgrade Maltruant to Low 2-C, despite the latter getting oneshot by the Annihilaargh.
 
Last edited:
PlozAlcachaz said:
I agree with this downgrade fully. The Atomic-X thing especially never made sense to me. I don't know why we would assume Ben 10k would literally go into an infinitely weaker fusion against something of CTB's caliber of destruction if Atomic-X was truly so inferior to Alien X.
Click to expand...
Since when did Ben 10000 know he’s countering a multiversal EE’ing bomb? There even used to be a note on his profile to say that he didn’t IIRC. Also despite being a genius (not Supergenius) he can still make dumb moves and why would you even assume he still has full control over Alien X, that’s a temporary thing you know.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
So the 'Greatest Power in the Universe" is simply a Celestialsapien's ability to warp reality.
Click to expand...
Several staff disagreed with this in the previous thread and even then he scales above the Chrono Navigator’s space-time hax. Said hax is over time but creating holes in space-time that will destroying the universe is already accepted as a valid proof for low 2-C for that one Mario character that has a crossover with Rabbids IIRC (so same reasoning should hold up for 2-B) and not that this matters anyway in a 2-A cosmology. What’s that the cosmology of Ben 10 isn’t 2-A? Well you can either push for the downgrade now and waste our time, wait for me to upgrade the cosmology to 2-A and then upgrade Alien X, or you can just wait till I make the cosmology blog which we all agreed to when we closed the last thread involving cosmology.
 
It's a valid point that the chrononavigator was going to destroy time space by destabilising it and hence that may not scale to Alien X's attack potency. I'm okay with downgrading him on that point

I don't agree with removing EE, being decietful doesn't mean everything a character says is a lie. There is ultimately a reason for why the Rooters were scared of Ben and it might very well be what Servantis cites here. Hyperbole also isn't a good defense, when people say "wish everything out of existence" in context to a being with reality warping powers that work on a cosmic scale imply he can use those powers to mentally erase things, it really doesn't seem like a flowery way to refer to a process that isn't actually existence erasure
 
Andytrenom said:
I don't agree with removing EE, being decietful doesn't mean everything a character says is a lie. There is ultimately a reason for why the Rooters were scared of Ben and it might very well be what Servantis cites here. Hyperbole also isn't a good defense, when people say "wish everything out of existence" in context to a being with reality warping powers that work on a cosmic scale imply he can use those powers to mentally erase things, it really doesn't seem like a flowery way to refer to a process that isn't actually existence erasure
Click to expand...
Basically this
 
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