Alien X 3-A Downgrade

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

if you are referring to the visual effect, you eventually see the circle of darkness not moving anymore, not that it's relevant since they wouldn't see it from inside alien X, again, it's a visual representation.

Nice copout, because that's not a counter argument. We know the Annilaargh's destruction appears in the form of those large purple circles of darkness, and they were very much still moving. Ben, Serena and Bellicus all saw them from inside Alien X and they were literally expanding.

And before you even try calling it just a "representation", I'll advise you to take a look for yourself and see the expansion blatantly happening, withe even more holes appearing.

Also it wouldn't matter if alien X fixed the universe since the annihalarg would just destroy it further, eventually actually affecting the space time continuum which alien X would then have to fix.

Headcanon as that assumes the Annihlaarg would continue to destroy a new universe upon it's creation.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Look above you. tHIs iS nOT DeBAtABLe

Granted, that doesn’t necessarily tie back to AX but rather his race in between OV and UA I guess.

Fam it doesn’t work in your favor. The changes happened in Omniverse alone, not from UA to Omniverse. Also Skye? Seriously???

 

[Greenshifter]

Meh this still supports them being capable of reversing the Annihilaargh if it didn’t target time

Also Skye? Seriously???

END ME

 

[TypeOU]

Nice copout, because that's not a counter argument. We know the Annilaargh's destruction appears in the form of those large purple circles of darkness, and they were very much still moving. Ben, Serena and Bellicus all saw them from inside Alien X and they were literally expanding.

And before you even try calling it just a "representation", I'll advise you to take a look for yourself and see the expansion blatantly happening, withe even more holes appearing.

and that's exactly why it's a visual representation, it's a bomb, how would even more holes appear? Also, again, they are in a pocket dimension (with multiversal space iirc), how would they see the universe

Headcanon as that assumes the Annihlaarg would continue to destroy a new universe upon it's creation.

what? I'm saying it would destroy what's left of the universe, meaning alien X would still eventually scale to him through fixing the universe, even if it started fixing before the annihilarg finished its job

 

[Antvasima]

he recreated the universe tho, and time was also destroyed which, in ben 10 terms, translate to "no time control"

Okay.

So should we go with the compromise solution that I suggested above, in lack of other options, since this will likely never end otherwise, due to being too subjective to decide in another reliable manner?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

So should we go with the compromise solution that I suggested above, in lack of other options, since this will likely never end otherwise, due to being too subjective to decide in another reliable manner?

Let me show you why time wasn’t affected. Give me a few to get the scans.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am too distracted from juggling many tasks at the same time to evaluate this properly.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Just wondering, but is Alien X keeping his 2-B EE?

He never had it in the first place, that was debunked by zamasu.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Well, I am too distracted from juggling many tasks at the same time to evaluate this properly.

We all know that Alien X recreated the universe and changed Mr. Smoothy.

However Mr. Smoothy in the past was not changed.

We’re also shown, simultaneously, that the past and present Mr. Smoothy restaurants are completely different.

This is the same timeline because past things Ben did affected the present.

That’s all 3-A.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

and that's exactly why it's a visual representation, it's a bomb, how would even more holes appear? Also, again, they are in a pocket dimension (with multiversal space iirc), how would they see the universe

What does it being a bomb have to do with anything? The bomb, in this case, is going off and is destroying the universe with those purple holes of darkness. A bomb setting off multiple destructive holes.

And this pocket dimension is inside Alien X.

 

[Greenshifter]

We all know that Alien X recreated the universe and changed Mr. Smoothy.

However Mr. Smoothy in the past was not changed.

We’re also shown, simultaneously, that the past and present Mr. Smoothy restaurants are completely different.

This is the same timeline because past things Ben did affected the present.

That’s all 3-A.

Or the mr. smoothy change happened at a different point in time. After all Rook remembers the ORIGINAL Mr. Smoothy design the moment after the Annihilaargh went off. Despite it showing the new design in the original chain of events, so it’s not even clear in these 2 instances of the same moment in time when the design changed. So how would you expect to prove the design changed exactly at that moment and not earlier on in the past.

 

[Greenshifter]

And this pocket dimension is inside Alien X.

It’s not but this is a discussion for another time. The Annihilaargh didn’t reach his pocket dimension either, it was a projection of the universe. The alternative being giving base Ben EE resistance.

 

[Greenshifter]

I might agree with Ant’s proposal of 3-A, possibly low 2-C. So we can end this pointless debate. I’m not even sure if 3-A is even on the table anymore, but I frankly don’t care. Take your end (of the 2 tiers) and do with it what you want.

 

[Antvasima]

Which staff members have replied here previously?

 

[TypeOU]

What does it being a bomb have to do with anything? The bomb, in this case, is going off and is destroying the universe with those purple holes of darkness. A bomb setting off multiple destructive holes.

the bomb destroys the universe by being the opposite of a big bang, so yes, it shouldn't create multiple purple holes of darkness

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Or the mr. smoothy change happened at a different point in time.

You do realize Mr. Smoothy changing at any point in time, just makes it 3-A? That would still mean it’s past version was different from its present version regardless of when it was changed. Stop the headcanon dude. We’re literally shown what happens and you’re denying it.

After all Rook remembers the ORIGINAL Mr. Smoothy design the moment after the Annihilaargh went off. Despite it showing the new design in the original chain of events, so it’s not even clear in these 2 instances of the same moment in time when the design changed. So how would you expect to prove the design changed exactly at that moment and not earlier on in the past.

I already told you that a continuity error because it’s a reused clip. Even if I agree that it’s the same memories, that still means Mr. Smoothy of the past was different.

Even using your headcanon, it still points to 3-A dude.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

3-A making a lot of sense unfortunately.

 

[AKM sama]

I think Zamasu has a point there.

 

[Purgy]

Apologies if this is derailing, but why is recreating a universe multiple galaxies at a time even 3-A instead of 3-B?

 

[Antvasima]

It seems impossible to reach an agreement here, and in such cases a compromise is better than nothing.

Again, which staff members have commented here previously?

 

[Greenshifter]

You do realize Mr. Smoothy changing at any point in time, just makes it 3-A?

Not really, cause that’d mean the Annihilaargh also targeted time. If its past version is different from its present version then Ben only messed up from a certain point in time onwards while being busy recreating the entire thing.

To put it in Ultima’s terms, if the design of the mr. smoothy changed a few million snapshots of the timeline before the Annihilaargh went off. Then clearly the Annihilaargh must have affected all those million snapshots of the timeline in between the 2 moments as well. (I used millions instead of uncountable infinity to make it less confusing ironically)

I’m saying this cause the default assumption should still be that it does the opposite of its creation, which multiple staff seem to agree is low 2-C. This due to Rook using the same word for both what it creates and what it destroys.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Not really, cause that’d mean the Annihilaargh also targeted time. If its past version is different from its present version then Ben only messed up from a certain point in time onwards.

[Headcanon]

That’s still not proof of time being affected.

 

[Greenshifter]

[Headcanon]

That’s still not proof of time being affected.

How so? I gave you my explanation. Now give yours instead of going “no”. Cause that’s just failing to address my argument.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Apologies if this is derailing, but why is recreating a universe multiple galaxies at a time even 3-A instead of 3-B?

Good point again honestly. This was said earlier but was most likely glossed over cuz of the other stuff discussed.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

How so? I gave you my explanation. Now give yours instead of going “no”. Cause that’s just failing to address my argument.

You claimed that the Annihilargh affected a portion of time and that the Mr. Smoothy change happened at an unknown time based off on a continuity error from a reused scene.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Good point again honestly. This was said earlier but was most likely glossed over cuz of the other stuff discussed.

He’d still be 3-A due to surviving the destruction of the universe.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Not really, cause that’d mean the Annihilaargh also targeted time. If its past version is different from its present version then Ben only messed up from a certain point in time onwards while being busy recreating the entire thing.

To put it in Ultima’s terms, if the design of the mr. smoothy changed a few million snapshots of the timeline before the Annihilaargh went off. Then clearly the Annihilaargh must have affected all those million snapshots of the timeline in between the 2 moments as well. (I used millions instead of uncountable infinity to make it less confusing ironically)

I’m saying this cause the default assumption should still be that it does the opposite of its creation, which multiple staff seem to agree is low 2-C. This due to Rook using the same word for both what it creates and what it destroys.

That doesn't make it low 2-C, you need to effect the entire space time, not a portion.

 

[Antvasima]

You will probably argue for 800 posts more unless you manage to decide on a compromise solution.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Sorry if this is a derail, but alien X affecting part of a timeline does not result in Low 2-C, just High 3-A at best

 

[TypeOU]

Sorry if this is a derail, but alien X affecting part of a timeline does not result in Low 2-C, just High 3-A at best

why would he only affect part of the timeline? the point is that the timeline was destroyed, and he recreated it, and a change in the past due to his mistake proves it

 

[Bernkastelll]

why would he only affect part of the timeline? the point is that the timeline was destroyed, and he recreated it, and a change in the past due to his mistake proves it

I was talking about the annihilaargh argument that mentions that their past (or present) version was messed up

 

[Greenshifter]

He’d still be 3-A due to surviving the destruction of the universe.

Nah that'd just be EE resistance

You claimed that the Annihilargh affected a portion of time and that the Mr. Smoothy change happened at an unknown time based off on a continuity error from a reused scene.

Ah ok so your problem is with my evidence rather than my reasoning. Well I stay with my default assumption and my what conclusions that follow from it which you like to dub my "headcanon". Meanwhile you stick with your conclusions or "headcanon".

That doesn't make it low 2-C, you need to effect the entire space time, not a portion.

I mean obviously if Zamasu were to concede to the annihilaargh affecting time I'd have easily argued that it affects all of it due to being a reverse big bang. But considering that's not what happened...

You will probably argue for 800 posts more unless you manage to decide on a compromise solution.

...I think Ant's right here. 3-A, possibly Low 2-C seems like the best option here. Based on the destruction scene and the barrier scene respectively. We both have our counterarguments to those respective scenes, but it does just seem like the best option rn.

 

[My_area]

Apologies if this is derailing, but why is recreating a universe multiple galaxies at a time even 3-A instead of 3-B?

Because Alien X is still using a single move to create multiple galaxies at a time before the whole space is back. I don't remember anything stating that someone has to recreate everything of the universe in 1 go in order to be considered as 3-A creation. Same can apply to destruction, if 3-A destruction destroyed the universe through multiple galaxies at a time, it would still be 3-A since end result of that destruction was universe annihilation regardless of whether its done in 1 go or over time as long as its done by a single attack since AP is measure of energy output of single attack. So Alien X shouldn't go lower than 3-A.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because Alien X is still using a single move to create multiple galaxies at a time before the whole space is back. I don't remember anything stating that someone has to recreate everything of the universe in 1 go in order to be considered as 3-A creation. Same can apply to destruction, if 3-A destruction destroyed the universe through multiple galaxies at a time, it would still be 3-A since end result of that destruction was universe annihilation regardless of whether its done in 1 go or over time as long as its done by a single attack since AP is measure of energy output of single attack. So Alien X shouldn't go lower than 3-A.

Uh, pretty sure we never tier feats like this. It usually has to be "show power in one single instance with one move" in order to qualify for it since if you aren't using it in one instance, that implies you aren't able to actually unleash that level of power in a single attack. Destroying or recreating a universe by large sections at a time sounds like high level 3-B.

Not that I necessarily agree with Alien X being lower than 3-A, but it is a good point to bring up nonetheless.

 

[Purgy]

Because Alien X is still using a single move to create multiple galaxies at a time before the whole space is back. I don't remember anything stating that someone has to recreate everything of the universe in 1 go in order to be considered as 3-A creation. Same can apply to destruction, if 3-A destruction destroyed the universe through multiple galaxies at a time, it would still be 3-A since end result of that destruction was universe annihilation regardless of whether its done in 1 go or over time as long as its done by a single attack since AP is measure of energy output of single attack. So Alien X shouldn't go lower than 3-A.

That's not true at all, a character that can destroy five Continents one Continent at a time isn't High 6-A, he's 6-A, seems like you're just arguing semantics as to what "one move" is.

From the video, he's individually creating clusters of galaxies, a 3-B could do the exact same thing.

But regardless, as pointed out by Zamasu_Chan, it doesn't change anything, so it doesn't matter.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Nah that'd just be EE resistance

Dude. Are you trying to have Alien X lower than universal?

Ah ok so your problem is with my evidence rather than my reasoning. Well I stay with my default assumption and my what conclusions that follow from it which you like to dub my "headcanon". Meanwhile you stick with your conclusions or "headcanon".

Exactly how are they headcanon? I simply provided evidence that the past wasn’t changed . I gave multiple scans while you’re using your "evidence" from an editing mistake.

This was from "so long and thanks for all the smoothies" and this was from "universe vs Tennyson". The only differences are some seconds being cut out and some changed sound effects. You could even see here that Rhomboid's fatial expressions don’t change naturally. It changes as if it was cut together. The Annihilargh is even a different shade when it opens. The editors obviously cut up the scene but didn’t redraw it.

Can we please move on from this?

 

[Greenshifter]

But regardless, as pointed out by Zamasu_Chan, it doesn't change anything, so it doesn't matter.

It does, resisting EE is just that, resistance. Kukui can confirm.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It does, resisting EE is just that, resistance. Kukui can confirm.

That would make alien X 3-B.

 

[Greenshifter]

I gave multiple scans while you’re using your "evidence" from an editing mistake.

I’m fine with not using the editing mistake. Doesn’t change my default assumption.

Exactly how are they headcanon?

You’re arguing a contradiction is present (if you agree with the Annihilaargh creating a space-time in a way that qualifies for low 2-C), when you can just use an alternative decent interpretation that makes it consistent. With the latter always being better than the former.

I simply provided evidence that the past wasn’t changed

You provided evidence that certain moments in the past were supposedly unchanged (when it comes to the mr. smoothy design). You however did not provide any explicit statements that time was not affected by the Annihilaargh.

Can we please move on from this?

Gladly, I already gave the compromise solution. Ball’s in your court now.

Edit: Seems like I remembered Rook’s memory differently, thought it was longer, my apologies.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I’m fine with not using the editing mistake. Doesn’t change my default assumption.

You’re arguing a contradiction is present (if you agree with the Annihilaargh creating a space-time in a way that qualifies for low 2-C), when you can just use an alternative decent interpretation that makes it consistent. With the latter always being better than the former.

I mentioned before that the creation is low 2-C because it's a world line, which is matter + time. That would be universal+. However, since there's evidence against time being destroyed, I settled for 3-A destruction and Low 2-C creation.

You provided evidence that certain moments in the past were supposedly unchanged (when it comes to the mr. smoothy design). You however did not provide any explicit statements that time was not affected by the Annihilaargh.

Why do I need statements when the evidence provided? Feats > statements, and due to that, you'd have to show extra proof of time being destroyed.

Gladly, I already gave the compromise solution. Ball’s in your court now.

Edit: Seems like I remembered Rook’s memory differently, thought it was longer, my apologies.

Good.