Ajimu Najimi Universe level Debunk

[Hades109]

On Ajimu Najimi's profile is the following description: "She was able to observe the creation of the universe but we do not know how close she was to the blast".

This description alone would already rule out the probability of this scaling it to Universe level, better fitting to say that her Tier is Unknown.

Furthermore, in the description of the Big Bang wiki page it says: "Surviving a Low 2-C Big Bang isn't a Universe level+ feat in durability due to the non-physical nature of such an event. However, this ideally only applies to Big Bangs as natural events, instead of attacks with a destructive capacity independent of their size and tier."

That means a character can't scale with the Big Bang which was a natural event, right? Therefore, Ajimu Najimi would not be the exception to the rule.

With all this clarified, I suggest that it would be better to change her classification from "likely Universe level" to just Unknown.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Didn't link Big Bang profile therefore invalid

 

[Hades109]

Didn't link Big Bang profile therefore invalid

Big Bang

To quote from Wikipedia: "The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe, originally conceived to describe its origins, that is best supported by all cosmological observations. The essential idea is that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Sorry, I forgot at the time.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

I agree, even the 5-C classification itself I find at least suspicious.

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

I agree, I honestly don't even know how something so vague was accepted.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Overrated fodder. Agree.

 

[Antvasima]

@Agnaa @Catzlaflame

What do you think about this?

 

[Dragonite007]

Surviving a Low 2-C Big Bang isn't a Universe level+ feat in durability due to the non-physical nature of such an event

Ajimu Najimi - Unknown, likely Universe level

Ajimu don't scale to a Low 2-C Big Bang, she scales to a 3-A Big Bang, this rule don't apply to her

 

[Agnaa]

The Big Bang page clearly says that applies to the Low 2-C representations of the Big Bang; since we know that time passed before the Big Bang in this series, since she was waiting all that time, it cannot be that case, so it has to be the 3-A version.

The doubt in how far away she was from it is encapsulated in it being an "Unknown, possibly" rating, instead of a solid rating. Given the nature of observing it before she had the vast majority of her abilities, she probably wasn't absurdly far from it, so the possibility of her being close enough to tank a Big Number isn't exactly remote.

Your points were brought up when it was first proposed. So I still think it's a fair rating to give.

 

[Hades109]

Ajimu don't scale to a Low 2-C Big Bang, she scales to a 3-A Big Bang, this rule don't apply to her

Understood. Still, the quote that she was present at the time the Big Bang occurred is extremely vague, since we don't know if she was actually close to the explosion as it is on the page, as it is only said that she observed the Big Bang, not there is valid evidence to affirm that it was in fact at the place where the Big Bang occurred.

Being an explosion, the further from the epicenter the less energy it has, and as we don't know how far Ajimu was from the Big Bang, scaling it to "possibly Universe level" just based on that sounds very forced, since the verse has so little scale for her to have this level of power.

 

[Hades109]

The Big Bang page clearly says that applies to the Low 2-C representations of the Big Bang; since we know that time passed before the Big Bang in this series, since she was waiting all that time, it cannot be that case, so it has to be the 3-A version.

The doubt in how far away she was from it is encapsulated in it being an "Unknown, possibly" rating, instead of a solid rating. Given the nature of observing it before she had the vast majority of her abilities, she probably wasn't absurdly far from it, so the possibility of her being close enough to tank a Big Number isn't exactly remote.

Your points were brought up when it was first proposed. So I still think it's a fair rating to give.

As I mentioned, she is said to have observed the Big Bang, with no explicit mention that she was present at the time the Big Bang occurred. In addition to being an explosion, the further away from the epicenter the less energy it has. We don't know if Ajimu was 1 km from the Big Bang, 1,000,000 km or 100 billion light-years, requiring a lot of speculation to confirm that it was in fact present at the time of the explosion.

But even assuming that she survived the Big Bang, we also don't know how much damage she received from the explosion, she could have been completely destroyed and regenerated with one of her Skills; She could have simply been unaffected by one of her invulnerability Skills, etc. As mentioned above, it requires a lot of speculation to try to scale her to Universe level, even if it is "possibly".

 

[Agnaa]

As I mentioned, she is said to have observed the Big Bang, with no explicit mention that she was present at the time the Big Bang occurred.

She didn't retroactively see it or anything; she waited for the Big Bang to happen, and is far older than it.

In addition to being an explosion, the further away from the epicenter the less energy it has. We don't know if Ajimu was 1 km from the Big Bang, 1,000,000 km or 100 billion light-years, requiring a lot of speculation to confirm that it was in fact present at the time of the explosion.

I think "Unknown, possibly" accurately represents the amount of speculation needed.

But even assuming that she survived the Big Bang, we also don't know how much damage she received from the explosion, she could have been completely destroyed and regenerated with one of her Skills; She could have simply been unaffected by one of her invulnerability Skills, etc.

This was also discussed when the rating was first added; she couldn't have used her Skills. Later on in the chapter she gives this order of events:

1. She was born from nothing.
2. The universe was made.
3. She tried to find something impossible.
4. In the course of doing that, she accumulated all her skills; everything she thought she couldn't do eventually became easy to do.

Since her skills were obtained after that feat, she couldn't have used them to survive.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Given Agnaa’s reasons, I am inclined to disagree, given how this a possibly rating and not a full on rating.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

 

[Hades109]

She didn't retroactively see it or anything; she waited for the Big Bang to happen, and is far older than it.

Yes. She waited for the Big Bang to happen and saw it, that's why I said she observed it, but there is nothing that really confirms that she tanked the blast.

I think "Unknown, possibly" accurately represents the amount of speculation needed.

Well, but still, it's not concrete enough to say that she would possibly be Universe level for the reasons stated above (we don't know how far away she was from the Big Bang or how much of the blast she received). I would just say the "possibly far higher" would fit better.

Since her skills were obtained after that feat, she couldn't have used them to survive.

Okay, you got me on this one. :>

 

[Agnaa]

Well, but still, it's not concrete enough to say that she would possibly be Universe level for the reasons stated above (we don't know how far away she was from the Big Bang or how much of the blast she received). I would just say the "possibly far higher" would fit better.

We can't really give "far higher" to a character who's only rated at Unknown; what would they be far higher than? We could go with something like "Unknown, at least 8-B (scaling to her first key), possibly far higher", but people don't like giving Ajimu such a lowball tier. With how strong she's presented as, people have historically found that misleading, and preferred an Unknown rating.

We haven't really gotten new Ajimu tier-related information since the series ended, we'd probably need the Guidebooks translated for that, most arguments have already been considered (8-B, 5-C, 4-C, 3-A, High 3-A, Low 2-C, Low 1-C, 1-B, and 1-A have all been proposed). She only got changed from Unknown to her current tier a few years back since I noticed that she got a few scratches during the Doppelganger fight, and picked up on that skill timeline detail.

 

[Hades109]

We can't really give "far higher" to a character who's only rated at Unknown; what would they be far higher than? We could go with something like "Unknown, at least 8-B (scaling to her first key), possibly far higher", but people don't like giving Ajimu such a lowball tier. With how strong she's presented as, people have historically found that misleading, and preferred an Unknown rating.

We haven't really gotten new Ajimu tier-related information since the series ended, we'd probably need the Guidebooks translated for that, most arguments have already been considered (8-B, 5-C, 4-C, 3-A, High 3-A, Low 2-C, Low 1-C, 1-B, and 1-A have all been proposed). She only got changed from Unknown to her current tier a few years back since I noticed that she got a few scratches during the Doppelganger fight, and picked up on that skill timeline detail.

I understand. But I guess popular opinion doesn't really matter, does it? After all, the important thing is to make a transparent analysis, without arguments involving “I like it” or “I hate it”.

It's fair. It's really difficult to give a high level to a verse that lacks consistent feats or statements. After all, the greatest feat of the work is at Moon level, and it doesn't even occur during screen time.

 

[Dragonite007]

It's fair. It's really difficult to give a high level to a verse that lacks consistent feats or statements. After all, the greatest feat of the work is at Moon level, and it doesn't even occur during screen time.

We have a calc that puts the Moon Busting in Low 5-B, but we are waiting @Agnaa's dead tread reach a conclusion

 

[Agnaa]

I understand. But I guess popular opinion doesn't really matter, does it? After all, the important thing is to make a transparent analysis, without arguments involving “I like it” or “I hate it”.

Yeah, I prefer (and pushed for) a rating like "8-B, possibly far higher", but wasn't able to get it.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Actually, I’ve changed my thoughts on this. I’m fine with possibly 3-A being removed, but not her just being straight up Unknown as purposed. Just having her scale higher than the other characters (so 8-B for now) actually makes more sense to me.

A lot of the higher tiers come from Ajimu’s skills, which I find reason to believe she isn’t always that powerful unless she uses one.

It could also explain a lot of other things, like why Iihiko one shots Ajimu beyond just ‘Durability Negation’ (which I doubt he’d have now with this in mind.)

 

[Hades109]

Yeah, I prefer (and pushed for) a rating like "8-B, possibly far higher", but wasn't able to get it.

Got it. It is a shame.

 

[Hades109]

Actually, I’ve changed my thoughts on this. I’m fine with possibly 3-A being removed, but not her just being straight up Unknown as purposed. Just having her scale higher than the other characters (so 8-B for now) actually makes more sense to me.

It makes sense to me too.

A lot of the higher tiers come from Ajimu’s skills, which I find reason to believe she isn’t always that powerful unless she uses one.

Her feats contradict her scale with her skills. For example, she died for Iihiko, who was hit by a car.

It could also explain a lot of other things, like why Iihiko one shots Ajimu beyond just ‘Durability Negation’ (which I doubt he’d have now with this in mind.)

As far as I know, Iihiko has Regeneration Negation, but not Durability Negation.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Her feats contradict her scale with her skills. For example, she died for Iihiko, who was hit by a car.

True, get this fodder out of here. He was taken off guard, and to me it looks like he was hardly damaged from it, I would honestly say that it’s an outlier. Iihiko can also just make skills completely worthless (unless he sees it as fresh or chooses to recognize it), the only thing that can reach him are styles.

A lot of Ajimu’s skills wouldn’t scale to her durability at all either. And the ones that come from higher tiers we don’t use anyway as they are based on skills that are too vague to be used.

Anyhow, I’m still fine with downgrading Ajimu.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think it's that outlierish, it wasn't just a car, it was a huge cutting-edge armoured truck, and he was in his weaker body.

 

[Dragonite007]

Average Medaka Box's thread, dying out of nowhere
Bump??

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Agnaa]

The OP's reasons are largely wrong.

I, and some others in the thread, would prefer Ajimu's unsealed key be rated at "Unknown, at least 8-B, likely far higher", but that was argued for before with the same evidence without it being accepted, due to people being concerned that it would be a lowball.

Still, maybe a shift in site culture would make that change appropriate. Especially given how her 3-A (and before that, her purely Unknown) rating is the justification for Iihiko having Durability Negation, despite there not really being evidence for that in the text, which doesn't really work with our modern standards.

If we're considering changing her rating to that, we might want to notify prior opponents to that idea. I think DT may be the only one still active, though.

 

[Antvasima]

The OP's reasons are largely wrong.

I, and some others in the thread, would prefer Ajimu's unsealed key be rated at "Unknown, at least 8-B, likely far higher", but that was argued for before with the same evidence without it being accepted, due to people being concerned that it would be a lowball.

Still, maybe a shift in site culture would make that change appropriate. Especially given how her 3-A (and before that, her purely Unknown) rating is the justification for Iihiko having Durability Negation, despite there not really being evidence for that in the text, which doesn't really work with our modern standards.

If we're considering changing her rating to that, we might want to notify prior opponents to that idea. I think DT may be the only one still active, though.

Well, I personally do not mind.

@DontTalkDT

What do you think?

 

[DontTalkDT]

The OP's reasons are largely wrong.

I, and some others in the thread, would prefer Ajimu's unsealed key be rated at "Unknown, at least 8-B, likely far higher", but that was argued for before with the same evidence without it being accepted, due to people being concerned that it would be a lowball.

Still, maybe a shift in site culture would make that change appropriate. Especially given how her 3-A (and before that, her purely Unknown) rating is the justification for Iihiko having Durability Negation, despite there not really being evidence for that in the text, which doesn't really work with our modern standards.

If we're considering changing her rating to that, we might want to notify prior opponents to that idea. I think DT may be the only one still active, though.

Uh, do you suggest to remove the actual 3-A part of the rating from the page and then remove the durability negation of Iihiko? Or do I understand the idea wrong?

 

[Agnaa]

Uh, do you suggest to remove the actual 3-A part of the rating from the page and then remove the durability negation of Iihiko? Or do I understand the idea wrong?

A little bit more than that, replacing "likely 3-A" with "at least 8-B", probably with the 8-B justification mentioning both being stronger than her prior key, and the unknown distance from the big bang.

But yeah, I'd also wanna remove durability negation from Iihiko.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, personally I never was a big friend of the 3-A rating, so I'm fine with that. (Not just because of the unknown distance, but also since IIRC we are not sure if she even was a physical entity back then)

 

[Agnaa]

I think we can be fairly confident in that given she didn't have her skills and time existed (so it wouldn't be surprising if space and a physical form for her did, too)..

But neat.

I guess we can change that then.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. That seems fine then.

Is there anything left to do here, or should we close this thread?

 

[Agnaa]

My computer just got broken by an update, so I'm still fixing that and haven't had time to update the profiles.

I should be able to do that tomorrow (and review whether the MB discussion rule needs to be adjusted for this), after which, I'll lock the thread.

 

[Agnaa]

Edits done, sorry for the delay.

Gonna leave this open for a few days in case I missed anything.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out.

Should this thread be closed now then?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I don’t think there’s anything else to really do here.

I think it might be possible to give Ajimu some other AP ratings through the use of certain skills without affecting her main physical AP (within reason of course), But for this thread, not much else to do.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this thread then. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.