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Adding note for Acausality type 5

Pain_to12 said:
So the entire transcendence of higher dimensions here is just AP related? So hax from a lower dimension can affect higher D? Cause it is hax
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If lower D hax affects higher D being then it ain't lower D hax lol....

Or Said being ain't Higher dimensional xS
 
So what is left to do here?
 
Could we add a note on the Acausality page describing why Time =/= Causality?

I was reading some past Acausality revisions threads in the past whre past staff and current staff were saying things like


"Causality is inextricably linked to Temporal dimensions etc."

It appears those views among the staff has changed to keeping time and causality separate.

Also it is something that could easily get confused by new members to the wiki of time and causality being one and the same.

So a note describing the how transcending time doesn't grant acausality might be helpful.

Just my opinion...
 
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Tbh, saying time-space = acausality sounds more appropriate than time = acausality, and thus "transcending time-space to higher level of reality -> acausality" is more logical, quiet sure this is also one of the idea why type 5's are unbound by reality.
 
It should also be decided whether higher D hax can affect lower D character with acausality type 5. Things that can affect type 5 should also preferably be written on the page.
 
Orioreeem said:
It should also be decided whether higher D hax can affect lower D character with acausality type 5. Things that can affect type 5 should also preferably be written on the page.
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well if we do keep the idea that every temporal dimension is basically a Causality dimension (which idk if there ever was an official thread deciding this because i can't find one. spent 2 days looking)


Then i would say Yes Higher D hax could if you can prove it affects a higher temporal/Causality dimensional axis of movement.

in which caue i would say Type 5 needs nuked or go back to 1-A exclusive if the notion of Causality and Temporal dimensions remain one and the same.

Which i think now 3 years later after Acuasality revisions i believe the idea of Temporal dimensions are Causality dimensions have changed.
 
GreatIskandar14045 said:
Tbh, saying time-space = acausality sounds more appropriate than time = acausality, and thus "transcending time-space to higher level of reality -> acausality" is more logical, quiet sure this is also one of the idea why type 5's are unbound by reality.
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"Not quite. Causality is bound by temporal dimensions." retired Staff

"Time is a dimension, causality is generally linked to time" Also retired staff

Both comments are above the other.

This idea has changed i believe though since that revision thread

Which in my opinion i think acausality page should have a note placed on it about the relation between Time and Causality
 
Should I create a CRT for nuking type 5 using all the stuffs mentioned in this thread with others I can think of?
 
Pain_to12 said:
Should I create a CRT for nuking type 5 using all the stuffs mentioned in this thread with others I can think of?
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If you do make one i think the options should be

Nuke it or someone should write out a better description for it.


But that could be the route were heading down.
 
So if acausal type 5 get nuked then old acausal type 5 characters will be above baseline type 4 or what?
 
QuasiYuri said:
Better nuke type 5 or making it a part of BDE to be honest.

The type itself has too many flaws to stand as its own power so far.
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What happens to character that are already type 5? Would they now have type 4? What would you need to affect it?
 
for example,in PMMM mg homura is acausal type 4 and madoka's acausal completely transcends it,then it would be above baseline type 4?and what is needed to interact with her?
 
I think this idea on nuking Acausality 5 is stupid, and honestly seems to come from the fact that some people just don't seem to understand what Acausality Type 5 is and the obvious reasons why it's obviously different to Type 4.

Type 5 is Acausality in its most logical sense, where a being isn't Effected by any Cause and thus can't be changed by any normal force. Its a very logical form of Acausality and is covered by no other Type.
 
Everything12 said:
I think this idea on nuking Acausality 5 is stupid, and honestly seems to come from the fact that some people just don't seem to understand what Acausality Type 5 is and the obvious reasons why it's obviously different to Type 4.

Type 5 is Acausality in its most logical sense, where a being isn't Effected by any Cause and thus can't be changed by any normal force. Its a very logical form of Acausality and is covered by no other Type.
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There are many characters that aren't affected by the laws, concepts, normal cause and effect, fate, etc and still type 4 hahaha
 
Everything12 said:
I think this idea on nuking Acausality 5 is stupid, and honestly seems to come from the fact that some people just don't seem to understand what Acausality Type 5 is and the obvious reasons why it's obviously different to Type 4.

Type 5 is Acausality in its most logical sense, where a being isn't Effected by any Cause and thus can't be changed by any normal force. Its a very logical form of Acausality and is covered by no other Type.
Click to expand...
I think rewording the current definition of Type 5 and also adding in a Note why Time and Causality are different should help get rid of most of the confusion.
 
I mean,characters like Yogiri completely transcends acausality of HRE (which is one of many reasons in his CRT for acausal type 5) so if we nuke type 5 we will just simply create a scaling chain for type 4,which is more complex
 
Everything12 said:
I think this idea on nuking Acausality 5 is stupid, and honestly seems to come from the fact that some people just don't seem to understand what Acausality Type 5 is and the obvious reasons why it's obviously different to Type 4.

Type 5 is Acausality in its most logical sense, where a being isn't Effected by any Cause and thus can't be changed by any normal force. Its a very logical form of Acausality and is covered by no other Type.
Click to expand...
Yet is as NLF-ish as can be.

So far you just need to "transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system" which most type 4 can do. It means that we consider that surpassing regular causality makes you immune even to higher systems and coe.

Also it is not unlike giving infinite/immeasurable speed because of transcending time and space.
 
Type 4 and 5 are completely different. By making type 5 above baseline type 4, we are basically saying this above baseline type 4 just gives you one more layer of resistance to fate and causality hax.
 
Oh look at that, some authors don't understand what they are talking and say things while showing something completely contradictory, how strange. Doesn't nullify all the authors who do understand what it means to be outside of Causality and show so.

Acausality is being outside Causality, you can guess that by its name A-Causality. Causality is Cause and Effect, its where something happens (A Cause) which leads to a change happening (A Effect), it is the principle behind all change and its impossible for any change to occur without a Cause to have happened first.

So to actually be Acausal isn't to not have a future, isn't to not have a past, isn't to work on different form of Causality. It's to exist outside Causality and thus be immune to change.

As for the whole Causality=Time, they aren't the same thing, but they are linked like Space and Time are linked. Can't have any Cause happen without Time flowing, and you can't have a Effect happen because of the Cause without Time progressing. So just like Fate isn't Time but requires the future of Time to be a thing, so to does Causality and the change it brings also requires Time to flow.
 
Orioreeem said:
Type 4 and 5 are completely different. By making type 5 above baseline type 4, we are basically saying this above baseline type 4 just gives you one more layer of resistance to fate and causality hax.
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That's not how it works,acausal type 4 is nearly immune to fate and causality hax because they operate a different cause and effect system,layer of resistance is kinda irrelevant here
 
Everything12 said:
Oh look at that, some authors don't understand what they are talking and say things while showing something completely contradictory, how strange. Doesn't nullify all the authors who do understand what it means to be outside of Causality and show so.
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Or maybe it's not always others who are wrong and maybe us? Who litteraly just are supposed to index their work, not to say "you suck, here's how I would have done it".
Everything12 said:
Acausality is being outside Causality, you can guess that by its name A-Causality. Causality is Cause and Effect, its where something happens (A Cause) which leads to a change happening (A Effect), it is the principle behind all change and its impossible for any change to occur without a Cause to have happened first.

So to actually be Acausal isn't to not have a future, isn't to not have a past, isn't to work on different form of Causality. It's to exist outside Causality and thus be immune to change.
Click to expand...
Existing outside causality is considered as not enough for type 5 but works for type 4 so far.
 
Acausality Type 5 is no different to Abstract Existence Type 1 or Non-existent Physiology (both Types) they are existences that operate outside the normal form of physics and thus make all normal interactions that work within said laws impossible. Acausality Type 5 is no more NLF then being Abstract or Non-existent, it's just it's much rarer for an author to understand and utilise it properly in their works so less characters have it and thus less characters can counter it.
 
Everything12 said:
Acausality Type 5 is no different to Abstract Existence Type 1 or Non-existent Physiology (both Types) they are existences that operate outside the normal form of physics and thus make all normal interactions that work within said laws impossible. Acausality Type 5 is no more NLF then being Abstract or Non-existent, it's just it's much rarer for an author to understand and utilise it properly in their works so less characters have it and thus less characters can counter it.
Click to expand...
So transcending any random system of causality should make you unaffected to every character in fiction who didn't show to hurt someone transcending a system of causality, and even if they are on a much higher one? That's what the current definition is.

So yeah, not buying it. That's like saying transcending time and space makes you immune to even tier 0 if their transcendence doesn't include surpassing these concepts.

AE and NEP have nothing to do with being outside something or transcending it, so that's false equivalence here.
 
Yuri, I don't understand what your problem is but type 5 and 4 have very distinct definitions. One is being being transcendental over or beyond the normal system of causality entirely, while 4 is operating on unusual causality. Note how these aren't even remotely similar outside of relating to causality. If you don't buy this, that's a you-problem, because your issues simply do not exist within what you are complaining about.
 
Everything12 seems to make sense to me.
 
Cm 1 that still trascend reality should be able to interact with Acausality 5
 
Before the merging of type 1 and 2, Cm Type 2 and 1 were able to interact with Acausality 5 cuz they transcend reality iirc but now you don't need to transcend reality to get type 1.... That's mean Cm type 1 that was type 2 before the merge cuz they transcend reality then those should be able to interact with Acausality 5
 
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