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Also, I brought this up in a CRT because at the time I didn't know exactly which forum this would fit under. My fault.
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About Time Travel in VS threads
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
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Wokistan
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Actually, a lot of precog allows people to forsee alternate paths a timeline can take, and as such they'd be able to sift through futures where they travel different amounts of time backwards to see what works. That's generally higher level precog though.
Looking at someone and thinking "Eh they look about 30, I'll go back that amount and adjust if I'm off" doesn't take long at all, what are you talking about? Also, you seem to assume every battle is a battle of instakills.
The way time works means that years wouldn't pass in the present, it'd be like an instant. Also running away and universe hopping isn't even really banned unless they just abandon the fight for good, look at Bayonetta's purgatorio stuff.
Looking at someone and thinking "Eh they look about 30, I'll go back that amount and adjust if I'm off" doesn't take long at all, what are you talking about? Also, you seem to assume every battle is a battle of instakills.
The way time works means that years wouldn't pass in the present, it'd be like an instant. Also running away and universe hopping isn't even really banned unless they just abandon the fight for good, look at Bayonetta's purgatorio stuff.
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Some examples of your first point would be nice because I have never seen precog being used by any character I know with it at all.
Because a majority of characters here kinda can't have their ages be guessed at? For instance, Soul Reapers from the Soul Society in Bleach all don't even look middle aged except for Yamamoto, and all of these guys are like hundreds to thousands of years old. This includes the likes of Rukia, Renji, and Toshiro who literally look no older than teenagers. And this is just one example out of ficition. This doesn't account for characters who aren't human based, aren't from earth, or have any unique type of origins that makes them entirely different.
Toward the present? Yes. Toward the time traveler? Absolutely not. The point would be that the traveler is traveling years and years and years into the past to try and find the past version of the opponent. And thats not even accounting if the opponent is from an entirely different planet in an entirely different universe or dimension, which is very likely out of all characters. From the traveler's perspective, taking that long is running away from a battle.
Because a majority of characters here kinda can't have their ages be guessed at? For instance, Soul Reapers from the Soul Society in Bleach all don't even look middle aged except for Yamamoto, and all of these guys are like hundreds to thousands of years old. This includes the likes of Rukia, Renji, and Toshiro who literally look no older than teenagers. And this is just one example out of ficition. This doesn't account for characters who aren't human based, aren't from earth, or have any unique type of origins that makes them entirely different.
Toward the present? Yes. Toward the time traveler? Absolutely not. The point would be that the traveler is traveling years and years and years into the past to try and find the past version of the opponent. And thats not even accounting if the opponent is from an entirely different planet in an entirely different universe or dimension, which is very likely out of all characters. From the traveler's perspective, taking that long is running away from a battle.
Wokistan
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Warhammer precog allows people to see the paths different futures will take with different options, and such paths would include usage of one ability at a specific time, etc. Notable users including Ahzek Ahrima, Eldrad Ulthra, and The Emperor of Mankind, though not specifically for time travel. Osiris from Destiny (profile in the works) should also be able to do something like that, as he's able to peer into an infinite amount of futures and has apparitions of himself present throughout time in each timeline. Characters with combat oriented precog should generally be able to pull this off.
Match specific, just argue it there.
It's not OOC for everyone, some people are just that determined. Also cosmic awareness, supernatural sensing, etc can give a lot of info. This is a match specific thing that you should just be arguing there.
In general, I agree with Andy that this doesn't need a thread so much as it needs people to put effort into their argument. If someone just says "X via paradox" and you don't like that, challenge their point with some of the stuff you brought up. What we don't need are blanket restrictions like this.
Match specific, just argue it there.
It's not OOC for everyone, some people are just that determined. Also cosmic awareness, supernatural sensing, etc can give a lot of info. This is a match specific thing that you should just be arguing there.
In general, I agree with Andy that this doesn't need a thread so much as it needs people to put effort into their argument. If someone just says "X via paradox" and you don't like that, challenge their point with some of the stuff you brought up. What we don't need are blanket restrictions like this.
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I believe there is a difference of seeing the futute during fights as you both are in the same universe/location when compared to travelling back in time to a past you know nothing about or the time of a universe you have no knowledge on.
Wokistan
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I meant it more in the sense of people can precog in terms of "This will happen if I use X ability at Y time" which should logically include being able to forsee victory via paradox via time traveling in the specific way. I tend to be more used to higher level applications of this ability though, so weaker precoggers may not be able to.
Also, Acausality should be helpful with this sort of thing.
Also, Acausality should be helpful with this sort of thing.
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Fair enough on Warhammer, but I still don't see at all how seeing different paths into the future equates to using time travel to go back in time, aka the past.
>Cosmic Awareness
Again, this thread is only talking about characters who are average time travelers. Average as in they have no special ability like nigh omniscience or being aware of past events unlike those who do to make time traveling much easier for them. Also, since when does Cosmic Awareness mean you can gain in-depth knowledge on a random opponent?
With due respect, I disagree with this not needing a thread. Time traveling is a very convenient hax for many characters here to be argued with and with this ability there are much more problems to it than no problems to it. Some kind of standard needs to be set here regarding it. Ant was talking more about this not needing to be highlighted and we only highlighted it because this died off very quickly and hardly anyone is replying to it.
>Acasuality
This isn't really much of a solution since only a few out of the bunch have this. In fact, this reinforces my point more actually. The user of time travel has 0 idea the opponent is acasual, just like they don't know any of the opponents in-depth info without prep. Because of that, the user of time travel would continue their attempt to keep time paradoxing the opponent all for nothing, assuming they get passed all of the other issues with this.
Besides, the opponent being immune to time paradoxing doesnt suddenly become an excuse to throw away all of the issues with using time traveling as a strategy in the first place. Whether the opponent is effected or not is a different story, but it has no baring on the problems with using time traveling in a match.
>Cosmic Awareness
Again, this thread is only talking about characters who are average time travelers. Average as in they have no special ability like nigh omniscience or being aware of past events unlike those who do to make time traveling much easier for them. Also, since when does Cosmic Awareness mean you can gain in-depth knowledge on a random opponent?
With due respect, I disagree with this not needing a thread. Time traveling is a very convenient hax for many characters here to be argued with and with this ability there are much more problems to it than no problems to it. Some kind of standard needs to be set here regarding it. Ant was talking more about this not needing to be highlighted and we only highlighted it because this died off very quickly and hardly anyone is replying to it.
>Acasuality
This isn't really much of a solution since only a few out of the bunch have this. In fact, this reinforces my point more actually. The user of time travel has 0 idea the opponent is acasual, just like they don't know any of the opponents in-depth info without prep. Because of that, the user of time travel would continue their attempt to keep time paradoxing the opponent all for nothing, assuming they get passed all of the other issues with this.
Besides, the opponent being immune to time paradoxing doesnt suddenly become an excuse to throw away all of the issues with using time traveling as a strategy in the first place. Whether the opponent is effected or not is a different story, but it has no baring on the problems with using time traveling in a match.
Wokistan
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Seeing different paths into the future being able to give you the heads up to travel correctly, as they can see a future with a favorable outcome caused by usage of their ability in that manner. Not saying all precog, but characters with specific enough uses for it should be good.
Cosmic awareness lets them find where the opponent is if they time travel and the opponent switches locations due to that, and can also lend them information about the opponent, also who other than Ferb Fletcher runs into this issue of time traveling with no other supportive powers to make it viable? Its generally a pretty high up ability, and people with that seem to always have some other way of making it useful if that's a thing that they've done to people and can be considered in character to do so.
If the opponent is acausal, that's generally already regarded as a counter to time travelling abilities. When has that been ignored? Got a link?
This doesn't need a thread because its something that you should just use in arguments against people trying to use time travel paradox as an argument, or on the battles removal thread. Not allowing time travel also fails to consider all the other applications of it people can do, like using it to heal by undoing their wounds, or using it to dodge, or using it as a form of intangibility by shifting themselves out of time for a bit, etc. Blanket rules like this tend to have far too many unintended consequences to be considered a thing we should be striving to impose.
Cosmic awareness lets them find where the opponent is if they time travel and the opponent switches locations due to that, and can also lend them information about the opponent, also who other than Ferb Fletcher runs into this issue of time traveling with no other supportive powers to make it viable? Its generally a pretty high up ability, and people with that seem to always have some other way of making it useful if that's a thing that they've done to people and can be considered in character to do so.
If the opponent is acausal, that's generally already regarded as a counter to time travelling abilities. When has that been ignored? Got a link?
This doesn't need a thread because its something that you should just use in arguments against people trying to use time travel paradox as an argument, or on the battles removal thread. Not allowing time travel also fails to consider all the other applications of it people can do, like using it to heal by undoing their wounds, or using it to dodge, or using it as a form of intangibility by shifting themselves out of time for a bit, etc. Blanket rules like this tend to have far too many unintended consequences to be considered a thing we should be striving to impose.
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I mean, that might not have been what it was originally for, but that is now its main purpous, like it or no. Look at how manyVS threads are made compared to CRTsAntvasima said:
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what about the opposite can you just go far enough forward in time to the point where your opponent is dead honestly either just restrict it in battles if one person can use it and the other cant otherwise it is a free win in most scenarios
Wokistan
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Cheapskate, the concept of a stomp is already a thing. There's counters to time travel that aren't time travel, no need to restrict it. We don't even restrict higher dimensional immortality now, so why should mere time travel get that treatment?
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I think DonTalk is making sense here; I don't think it should be assumed for said character to know about their opponents' ancestors unless they possess either Nigh-Omniscience or advanced levels of precognition.
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"Osiris from Destiny (profile in the works) should also be able to do something like that, as he's able to peer into an infinite amount of futures and has apparitions of himself present throughout time in each timeline"
Destiny pages are finally being made?ƒñö
Destiny pages are finally being made?ƒñö
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Or prep time. Or same verse battlesDarkDragonMedeus said:
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In general verses should be equalized at least to the point where using the ability isn't entirely impossible. I.E the user of time travel should at least be capable of actually reaching the past of his opponent even though I agree that the user shouldn't outright know where to find their enemy in the past if they don't have the appropriate powers to easily do so. Otherwise one of the combatants has a clear disadvantage.
Also, I don't see how searching for someone in the past can count as running away. As long as it's in character for a fighter to use time travel in such a manner in the first place and the traveler stay on the hunt then they obviously shouldn't feel like they're "running away". After all they're spending their time actively searching for their target, regardless of how long that actually takes. Even if it's a million years.
Also, I don't see how searching for someone in the past can count as running away. As long as it's in character for a fighter to use time travel in such a manner in the first place and the traveler stay on the hunt then they obviously shouldn't feel like they're "running away". After all they're spending their time actively searching for their target, regardless of how long that actually takes. Even if it's a million years.
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I also would agree with DT reasoning, additionally, I have these issues too:
- Personally, I consider using time travel as escaping from the fight, making the entire match inconclusive since no one actually fought.
- The traveler do not necesary known about the exact time that the opponent is at its most vulnerable moment.
- The traveler do not necesary known about the exact localization where the past self of its opponent is.
- Time travel could work different depending of the verse:
- If someone travel back in time, the enemy can travel further back and prevent its being dispatched (the opponent is not erased instantly after the first traveler goes to the past).
- Dispatching someone in the past do not necesary will erase its future self, if not that it will split a second timeline (ex. Dragon Ball).
- Some verses possesses a "chronological protection", users are unable to change the past no matter how much they try. (ex. Valiant Entertainment).
- Another type of more complicated paradox can happen.
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I got confused here... If we go with OP arguments that by default battle assumptions time travel into deep past doesn't work without true dimension hopping. Because as far as half of VS threads goes people like to dump combatants into separated verse...
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Antonio and Don'tTalk forgot something.
What if the time travel user has a ton of prep time and knowledge of the opponent? With it, time travel can be used to paradox-kill them at certain points in time, if said char has done it in-canon of course... or has done something similar.
What if the time travel user has a ton of prep time and knowledge of the opponent? With it, time travel can be used to paradox-kill them at certain points in time, if said char has done it in-canon of course... or has done something similar.
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@Numbersguy
IMHO, that kind of sounds like a stomp or at least heavily skewed in the time traveler's favor. Especially if the other character has no way to counter or stop them.
Also could you really call something like that that a win? EX: You're facing Superman, so you go back in time and kill him as Superboy or as an infant en route to Earth or right after he lands. You didn't actually beat Superman in any kind of fight, you've simply killed him via a ripple effect through time. Not too mention that you didn't actually fight your designated opponent, you fought or simply killed a younger version of him.
IMHO, that kind of sounds like a stomp or at least heavily skewed in the time traveler's favor. Especially if the other character has no way to counter or stop them.
Also could you really call something like that that a win? EX: You're facing Superman, so you go back in time and kill him as Superboy or as an infant en route to Earth or right after he lands. You didn't actually beat Superman in any kind of fight, you've simply killed him via a ripple effect through time. Not too mention that you didn't actually fight your designated opponent, you fought or simply killed a younger version of him.
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Yes, if the opponent can't fight, you win. That still counts as winning, otherwise we will have to ban "ring-outs" due to following similar logicTheC2 said:
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Again, this was already addressed in my post. This thread is talking about average Time Travelers who don't have what I highlighted and more. That they're just simple beings with regular time traveling capabilities.Numbersguy said:
Wokistan
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What sort of time travelers even run into the issue you describe? Everyone who's used combat oriented time travel for combat successfully would have to demonstrate a criteria that makes it work to make it work. If you mean people like Ferb, they're a clear minority.
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As in people who aren't nigh omniscient, temporally omnipresent like Dialga or Solaris, or have Prep before a match.
Which is pretty much a large majority of time travlers.
Which is pretty much a large majority of time travlers.
Wokistan
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Maybe if they don't use it for combat, but pretty much everybody who uses it for combat in fiction, i.e. the ones who can actually have that considered as an option via it being in character for them, have a way of following them back or learning their origin.
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Time-Paradox killing working in setting usually because it is in setting, in other words both characters have some knowledge about each other...
Wokistan
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Time travel being as strong a power as it is means that people who can do it independently and not through using a time machine or something generally have other powers to supplement it. Even then, some people are just that patient. Take Doctor Doom for example. While he has other stuff that allows him to paradox people out of verse, he's set up plans that he would wait literal millions of years to complete, such as betraying the Marquis of Death.
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Not always. Sometimes character can have various power and time travel but it is not necessarily enough for precise strike against opponent. Sometimes even mimicry could screw chances to victory via time travel...Wokistan said:
Wokistan
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ok, so argue these things on threads where you feel this is the case if someone tries to use time travel as an argument. This sort of thing is so heavily based on a case by case basis that the best way to get answers for the scenario you're thinking of is just asking for specifics about the mechanics of their time travel in those threads.
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Which would mean they would start out by having a type of prep on their opponent who's supposed to be a 100% complete stranger, which I for one vehemently disagree with. But anyway, if they're allowed to have the prep then it's not a problem. Without prep and still magically doing it? Thats a problem.Yamatohime said:
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@Wok @Numbers
Guys, my point was that if you give the time traveler prep and knowledge of his opponent (as Numbers specified), you've skewed the match in time traveler's favor from the get go as he now has an 'I win' button.
That's what I meant in terms of fight. The conditions wouldn't be neutral anymore.
Guys, my point was that if you give the time traveler prep and knowledge of his opponent (as Numbers specified), you've skewed the match in time traveler's favor from the get go as he now has an 'I win' button.
That's what I meant in terms of fight. The conditions wouldn't be neutral anymore.
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bump
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Don't forget to add Retrocog to the list which allows the user to see someone's past & their past events that occurred before.
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Time travel is pretty hard to understand. Usually it's associated with either FTL speed or just bogus hax, the Delorean from Back to the Future needed to go only 88 MPH (141.6223 km/s) to activate its time-travel capabilities. It's confusing, really.
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Time travel shouldn't be allowed in vs battles cause it's retarted.Is this battle or time travel contest?!
