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About the Gentle Pull (Mario Bros.)

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ShockingPsychic

ShockingPsychic

He/Him
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I've never really done a proper CRT before, and have hardly used the new forums, so sorry if I make any mistakes.

The Gentle Pull doesn't exist. Plain and simple. It's entire existence is based on a single paragraph of dialog from Rosalina. Let's take a look.

  • "I am Rosalina... I watch over and protect the cosmos. I have been waiting for all of you."
  • "When that evil monster took our star power... I was separated from my precious little one... But I knew we'd see each other again."
  • "Because..."
  • "There is a force that binds us, defying even time and space... Not even the laws of the universe can stop it. I knew its gentle pull would prevail."
  • "It is the desire to be reunited with someone who is important to you. That pull is what brought us together."
  • "We have come through so much to meet again. This is not some mere whim of the stars... I am sure of that."
  • "Mario..."
  • "Thank you for returning this child to me."
Rosalina clearly states that the "Gentle Pull" is the desire to be reunited with a loved one, in this case her Luma.

She then goes on to say "This is not some mere whim of the stars". This doesn't mean that a higher power guides them together, it means that they both had the desire to see each other again and worked towards the goal.

Nothing here implies that the Pull is a character. Not even a vague, conceptual abstract one. This is Rosalina using hyperbole to describe the power of love to Mario.

I read through tons of old threads and found that the profile is only still on the site because of an alleged interview and a quote from a guidebook. The guidebook was found and had no mention of the conversation between Rosalina and Mario at all, and so was disregarded.

The interview has never been found and probably doesn't even exist. In this alleged interview, it was said that the Gentle Pull is a "You, The Player" type of character much like The Anomaly (Undertale) or The Player/Truth of the Universe (Earthbound).

If this interveiw can be produced and have its validity confirmed, this thread can be closed and the profile can stay, however at the moment the character "Gentle Pull" does not exist. There is no justification for its existence, and its only reference is easily explained. Even a simple Google search will reveal that this character isn't even a thing outside the Vs. Debate community.

The proposal is simple;
The Gentle Pull profile should be deleted and all references to it on the wiki should be deleted as well, until the alleged interveiw is found.
 
I agree with this entirely, didn't even know there was a profile for it.
Even if it was a character I feel that it is too many unknowns to be a valid profile.
 
This seems fine to me.
 
For context, there was a previous thread about this here. Cliffnotes version below:
  • I'm okay with the deletion since it doesn't seem notable enough to me.
  • DDM thinks the interview definitely exists since Dino and Ryukama wouldn't have mentioned it if it didn't.
  • Dino was asked to find said interview but doesn't even recall it existing.
  • LuckyEmile thinks that even without the interview it still deserves a page.
 
All right, its existence was already agreed to stay more than once, for the exact same reasons and was denied twice. That being said, I will make a response.

First off, its name should be changed. Rosalina referred to as "it's gentle pull", and as "that pull". The Desire is a much better name. Anyways, on the the main points.

Yes, it is the desire to be reunited. Because it is some type of entity that specializes it. It quite literally is the desire to be reunited. Let's take a look at the Mario series. What is a majority of the goals from those games? Save your special ones and be reunited with them. Save Peach, save Daisy, save Pauline, save Luigi, etc. Ever since day 1, both in-game and in the timeline, the main theme in Mario is to be reunited. Mario reunites with Pauline ever since DK. Mario as a baby reunites with Luigi, and their parents. Essentially, it's fate for the Marioverse.

And this isn't even just mainlines. Paper Mario has the same theme, reuniting with Peach. Or other characters like Olivia reuniting with her brother, Olly. Or most importantly, the entire motivation of Count Bleck wanting to reunite with Timpani. The Luigi's Mansion series is Luigi reuniting with Mario. Super Princess Peach was the same. Captain Toad reunites with Toadette in his game. Donkey Kong Country has the Kong family reuniting from K. Rool. Minions Quest/Junior's Journey was them wanting to reunite with Bowser and the Koopalings. Yoshi's Island and Mario vs Donkey Kong as previously stated. Wario Land reunites the Spritelings together and the Merfles with Queen Merelda.

That was a majority of the series. And those were only the main plot, I didn't even touch on the desire to be reunited on other NPCs and such. But you get the point. The desire to be reunited is basically fate that is done by desire. Considering how Rosalina refers to it as an "it" and is something the laws of the universe, something that was reset in Galaxy 1, cannot stop it. Rosalina also, you know, calls it a force. The reason for the "It is the desire to be reunited with someone who is important to you. That pull is what brought us together", section is from how it works, as explained above. And it sure as hell isn't "the power of love". Because the power of love is already something that exists in Mario, The Pure Hearts, which were created from love itself and lives on with it. It would also imply romantic only love, which isn't the case as shown with the other arguments.

On to what the profile has. I am fine with the unknown ap and durability, best you can argue is it was unaffected by the universe resetting. Speed should be omnipresent however, has it defies time and space and the desire to be reunited has been shown in other dimensions (Super Paper Mario, Wario Land Shake It), and inside dream worlds (Mario and Luigi Dream Team). Fate manipulation is good, as stated above. Personally it should resist law manipulation. And its range should be Multiversal for the same reason he should be omnipresent. I'm pretty sure some of this was already agreed it should be applied.


Tl;dr The Desire (The Gentle Pull), is the force of being able to reunite with your special one, and defies time and space to do so. Possibly the reason why Mario characters end up surviving certain scenarios where they were even fated to lose (Super Paper Mario's Dark Prognosticus). It's range should be multiversal, it's speed should be omnipresent, it should resist law manipulation, it can stay as unknown on other stuff unless others wanna look further into SMG's universal reset as a feat for The Desire.
 
Speed should be omnipresent however, has it defies time and space and the desire to be reunited has been shown in other dimensions (Super Paper Mario, Wario Land Shake It), and inside dream worlds (Mario and Luigi Dream Team). Fate manipulation is good, as stated above. Personally it should resist law manipulation. And its range should be Multiversal for the same reason he should be omnipresent.

>giving speed and range from a statement that would only either be speed or range
>giving range based on headcanon

Strongly disagree. It should stay at Unknown speed, and Unknown at least Universal+ range. No statements about it require it to be omnipresent or imply omnipresence. And the implications about the region it affects only extend to a Universal+ range. There is literally nothing proving or implying it affects other dimensions or dream worlds.

I do agree with resistance to law manip, but I think it was decided in another thread to just include that as "Capable of defying Space-Time Manipulation".
 
Agree: Ion, Saman, Rochman, Zoey, Antvasima, Agnaa, InfiniteSpeed (7)
Disagree: DatOneWeeb, DDM, LuckyEmile, Giver of Peace (4)

We have Seven Agreements for deleting it.
 
There is literally nothing proving or implying it affects other dimensions or dream worlds.
Click to expand...
There is. Super Paper Mario's entire game takes place from other dimensions, and Count Bleck's entire motivation for wanting to destroy everything was for never being reunited with Timpani. At the end, he does.



Dream Worlds are also a yes, since Lil' Massif's brother, Big Massif, was stuck inside of the dream world. In the end, they still renunite.



Reason for the omnipresence lining up for its range is because it's not a person. It's the desire, lol. It's their gimmick.

Seems like just vaguely stating a theme of the overall series, doesn't mean it's an actual being or real force. If there's no interview, I'm still fine with yeeting it.
Click to expand...
Issue with that is, well, the fact that Rosalina constantly refers to it as a being.
 
@DatOneWeeb, I fail to see how just because the Mario series has a common theme (one that is VERY common in ALL of fiction) somehow proves that there's an entity that specializes in it. There's no statements that even prove its an entity, its just a concept.
 
There is. Super Paper Mario's entire game takes place from other dimensions, and Count Bleck's entire motivation for wanting to destroy everything was for never being reunited with Timpani. At the end, he does. Dream Worlds are also a yes, since Lil' Massif's brother, Big Massif, was stuck inside of the dream world. In the end, they still renunite.

I didn't say that those things didn't exist, I said that there's no reason to believe that the gentle pull affects them.

Reason for the omnipresence lining up for its range is because it's not a person. It's the desire, lol. It's their gimmick.

Why does that make it omnipresent?

Issue with that is, well, the fact that Rosalina constantly refers to it as a being.

I don't think it has to be interpreted that way.
 
Because Rosalina specifies this theme has power, and is the reason she reunites with Luma, Mario reunites with Peach, and likely all other scenarios. She also constantly refers to it as an it, a force, and it has a "pull".
 
Because Rosalina specifies this theme has power, and is the reason she reunites with Luma, Mario reunites with Peach, and likely all other scenarios. She also constantly refers to it as an it, a force, and it has a "pull".

Damn, because someone vaguely refers to a power doing one thing in one game, it is automatically assumed to apply to literally every game before and after that even vaguely aligns with a ridiculously broad theme?

**** off.

@Zoey Op doesn't count for votes btw

That is completely incorrect.
 
Concepts are commonly referred to as if they were a physical thing. Its not all that uncommon.

"Karma's a jerk."

"Love is a powerful thing."

The second example is more closely related to the situation at hand.
 
The fact that there is literally no other mention of it in any other game or part of the same game, nor anywhere on the internet or else, should be another factor to consider, it's just a made up entity
 
SamanPatou said:
nor anywhere on the internet or else
Click to expand...
This part's false


tvtropes.org

Super Mario Galaxy 2 / Awesome - TV Tropes

All spoilers are UNMARKED per wiki policy. Read at your own risk! You Have Been Warned. When you kill Squizzard, he explodes, and the Power Star he had flies 50 feet straight up into the air. Granted, it comes back down, but it's still pretty …
tvtropes.org tvtropes.org

Not saying this proves it's a character but you can legitimately find this with a quick google search.
 
Oh well, I was wrong on that part, but it doesn't change my point.
Anyway, thank you for finding these references.
 
Just pointing out that the OP of that Reddit post frequents r/WhoWouldWin and r/CharacterRant. They clearly got their info from Vs. Debating, likely even the profile here on Vs.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Don't really know why that mitigates me pointing out that the "it's not mentioned anywhere else on the internet" is wrong
Click to expand...
I assumed that by "anywhere else on the internet", Saman was referencing the part of my post where all Google search results were of Vs. Debate communities.

"Anywhere else" being outside the Vs. Community. Im sorry if I assumed wrong.
 
I disagree with removing the page from Weeb and Giver's reasons.

The fact there is little known about it isn't a reason for the profile to not exist either. There are other cosmic characters I can think of that the site supports with incredibly little information known about them.
SamanPatou said:
nor anywhere on the internet or else, should be another factor to consider, it's just a made up entity
Click to expand...
I don't think this bit particularly matters regardless. That would mostly stem from the fact it's an implied character with not much of an interesting discussion surrounding them. That Reddit thread also shows there are people who interpret its existence in different ways as being the player, for example.
 
Amitabha at least has a concrete statement of its existence, and other context gives it stats and abilities.

I'm just not a huge fan of giving a profile for:
  • A character with limited statements.
  • Who is Unknown in almost every stat.
  • Who has almost no abilities.
  • And whose existence as a "character" is dubious in the first place.
All of those things combined make it hard for me to think a page is justified.
 
I agree with Agnaa, and I am not convinced by Weeb's arguements.

I do not believe it to be a character or even a literal cosmological force. The statement itself denied it being a being or a "whim of the stars", and stated that it is the desire to be reuinited that leads to them being reunited.
 
@Ploz, given that the character you linked was referred to by name and was given at least a brief apperence description, its safe to say that the character has much more info on it, including the fact that it actually exists, than Pull does.
 
ShockingPsychic said:
@Ploz, given that the character you linked was referred to by name and was given at least a brief apperence description, its safe to say that the character has much more info on it, including the fact that it actually exists, than Pull does.
Click to expand...
"Much more"

The only information that they actually give about Amitabha is how tall it is. Literally, everything else on the profile isn't even something they give about it character-wise. It's just stuff this community has decided to try to scale over.

I don't see how that's "much more" than the Gentle Pull at all. Weeb already has explained how the Gentle Pull exists as a force too with little adequate refutes.
 
ShockingPsychic said:
I assumed that by "anywhere else on the internet", Saman was referencing the part of my post where all Google search results were of Vs. Debate communities.

"Anywhere else" being outside the Vs. Community. Im sorry if I assumed wrong.
Click to expand...
It sounded to me like he meant outside of VBW honestly so if anything it just seems like both of us interpreted the wording differently which no problem in that case.
 
I didn't express myself well, it was my fault, but it's not an important point in the discussion
 
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