About particle beams and using this to speed calcs

[M3X_2.0]

Hi. Hmm, I've seen some calcs using the wikipedia page about Particle Beam to use the "near the speed of light" statement. The most recent was with Devil May Cry franchise. Let's take a look at this calculation here

In some discussion, an image of some Devil May Cry's guide was posted saying that this Mundus attack is a particle beam, but let's take a look at what wikipedia page says

Creation
Charged particles such as electrons, positrons, and protons may be separated from their common surrounding. This can be accomplished by e.g. thermionic emission or arc discharge. The following devices are commonly used as sources for particle beams:

• ion source
• cathode ray tube, or more specifically in one of its parts called electron gun. This is alsopart of traditional television and computer screens.
• photocathodes may also be built in as a part of an electron gun, using the photoelectric effect to separate particles from their substrate.
• Neutron beams may be created by energetic proton beams which impact on a target, e.g. of beryllium material. (see article Particle therapy).
• Bursting a Petawatt Laser onto a Titanium foil to produce a proton beam.

This is the source of some particle beams, the most common at least. An attack called "Particle Beam" should not be considered one. There are fews specifications mentioned above. And if they are not fulfilled, they should not be treated as Particle Beams by name alone.

I don't know much about this attack from Mundus, but if the attack fulfill some criteria, then it is ok. I am neutral about the verse, I just used as an example. Here are some usages of Particle Beams to make things easy

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Mundus' Particle Beam was accepted because:

- It travels in straight line

- It burns the target

- It goes through the target (not tangible)

- It was stated as a Particle Beam by reliable sources (Official Guidebook)

 

[M3X_2.0]

And that's what I am suggest to change. I don't think it is fair to use our Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats criteria for those kind of attack, as they have some difference regarding light.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Every type of Particle Beam travels near lightspeed ?

Having those criteria that I mentioned could mean that Mundus Particle Beam is similar to the ones that are closer to Light in speed and features

If there is one, obviously

 

[M3X_2.0]

Hmm, no. Not every type of Particle Beams move at near the speed of light, as the page says

"A particle beam is a stream of charged or neutral particles, in many cases moving at near the speed of light."

Some of them are made of UV Laser light source, but it is Ion source, a very specific kind of source of Particle Beam

 

[Lightning_XXI]

And for the ones that travel near lightspeed, they share many features with real Light ?

What I'm trying to say is that Mundus particle beam (specifically, I don't know about others) has many similar features with light, which can help us figure out which type of Particle Beam it fits in his example and whether these types have near lightspeed

 

[M3X_2.0]

Every source of Particle Beam has his own method of creation. That's why using light criteria is a bit wrong. Their criteria are a kind of specific to assume that every PB that few some light criteria are near lightspeed

 

[Therefir]

I agree with this, I don't see why the speed of very specific Particle Beams would apply to Mundus' attack.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

The OP makes sense.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Again, we should take Mundus Particle Beams and compare to the ones that share the same features

If they are near Lightspeed, then DMC it's good

 

[M3X_2.0]

"compare to the ones that share the same features"

That's the main point. Are the sources of the attacks (PB attacks) shown? I mean, at least was the source said? If it is any one shown in the OP? Particle Beam are attacks with very specific sources

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Well, I don't think the source of the attack is thaaaat relevant, almost everything involving Light Feats, for example, comes from Light that is created by the character, it's not a natural Light, but it have the same features that make them acceptable as lightspeed

Mundus case is basically the same, he creates a Particle Beam, that share many features with real light, which can be useful to see what kind of Particle Beam it is and if it travels at the speed of light, and he created it by using his own Demonic Powers. He's the source

 

[M3X_2.0]

But what does it matter? The attack meets the requirements to be considered light, but the attack is not light. Look what the page says

"Therefore, lasers/light beams are only accepted as real if they meet, at a minimum, a few of these criteria"

They are specific criteria for light and lasers attack. And that's where the PB source is relevant. Well, I think we should wait for thread approval to discuss this. I think we should discuss the Mundus attacks on another thread. It was a mistake to start the discussion here.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I gotta agree with the OP here.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I asked Kep to comment here

The attack meets the requirements to be considered light, but the attack is not light

Yes, what I'm wondering is if there is a Particle Beam that share many light features like traveling in straight line and these things. If there is, we can use this PB speed and apply to Mundus. If it travels at near lightspeed, then DMC should stay with that calc

 

[M3X_2.0]

Well, thanks. I've asked some CG members as well. We should wait those imputs then.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I just hope they read my arguments and not only the op lol

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am 100% with the OP. "Particle Beam" is used as technobabble 90% of the time it's brought up in fiction. The beam needs to fulfill criteria of real light.

 

[Dienomite22]

I agree with the premise but some other things need to be considered here.Most of fiction never specifies the method that is being used to create the partical beam and most people think of a really powerful laser attack when they think partical beam, I don't think it would be fair to denounce particle beam statements when they are based on something that is already in the realm of fiction and hypothetical like a combat based partical beam attack is.

I see the examples of particle beams you've brought up but most are nothing involving combat and the one that do involve combat are based on pure speculation and the original basic sci-fi idea of a particle beam.I believe that we should use the most known version of the partical beam and it's the one that everyone thinks when they hear partical beam and that's simply the idea that a partical be it atomic or subatomic is accelerated at high speeds to disrupt a target's molecular structure.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I am 100% with the OP. "Particle Beam" is used as technobabble 90% of the time it's brought up in fiction. The beam needs to fulfill criteria of real light.

I agree, but in DMC case, it fulfills our criteria, since:

- It travels in straight line

- It burns the target

- It goes through the target (not tangible)

- It was stated as a Particle Beam by reliable sources (Official Guidebook)

 

[M3X_2.0]

Again, lets get the thread accepted then you guys can create a thread about specific franchises

 

[DarkGrath]

Overall, the OP seems reasonable. With DMC as the specific example, I agree with Dante Demon Killah that the particle beam feat is reliable, though I think this should definitely be handled on a case-by-case basis for all franchises. A character simply stating that their attack is a particle beam when it has no other similar characteristics should not be considered a particle beam feat, for example.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I was summoned

it's like 5:15 AM rn

it's a biiit too early for this

but let's take a gander

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ah, this stuff. Right. Yeah, I'd be fine with creating a brief guideline on particle beams and whether or not we should consider them legitimate. For reference, a quick Google search shows that electrons move at about 2200000 m/s- while slower than the given particle beams, it might be a good low-end in this case, as that'd be almost peak MHS+.

Source about the electron speed and explaining why particles like this move like they do, brief and simple to understand.

 

[Antoniofer]

I'm not of the ones that would upgrade someone to SoL by simply mentioning "particle beam gun", as Matt said most fiction refer to sci-fi guns as "particle beam guns". It still need to cover the standard requeriments.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes, I think that's the point of the thread, to establish such requirements.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

Mundus's particle beam qualifies as a charged particle beam going by real life, so it'd qualify as one of the majority of particle beams that are near lightspeed.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

>A topic about particle beams (pretty much a calculation topic)

>Only DMC is tagged

Oh gee, I wonder

 

[M3X_2.0]

Bump

 

[M3X_2.0]

Bump

 

[AstralKing7]

Bump. What happened here

 

[CNBA3]

So, just to clarify, a charged ion particle beam does not constitute for lightspeed?