Tensura Revision : Upgrade or Downgrade or both?

[Jozaysmith?]

I guess the resistances are fine.

On Extraordinary genius, I guess it is fine from this description already accepted about Ultimate Skills: Enhanced Law Manipulation (Ultimate Skills are devices to grant access to the ultimate principles of the world,[15] being able to control the very laws of nature[23]). There is a quote about the users having the greatest insight. From Volume 4 chapter 5, to discover new laws from the world languages, like by magic, it can take a lifetime of research or more to apply to even a specific case or concept, according to Yuuki. Yuuki, who is immortal and genius, thinks he would never have the time to learn all the laws. According to the evidence from Rimuru’s intelligence on his first key, learning laws like those manipulated by magic can take lifetimes.

I will use this description, Thanks.

 

[ashen]

Then they should be classified as Extraordinary Genius in terms of processing information. For obvious reasons, this part needs to be stated in the profile for characters other than characters like Diablo and Rimuru.
Intelligence: Extraordinary Genius in Processing Information, Or something else (...)

How can we express this in the Intelligence section?

Wouldn’t it be better if we wording this on genius intelligence ( wording ) ?

 

[Shiraito983]

do you have wording now?

 

[Jozaysmith?]

I will use this description, Thanks.

do you have wording now?

Extraordinary Genius (Ultimate skill users all have "All of creation" which allows them freely comprehend all unconcealed phenomenon, and they also have the "Greatest insight" that allows them to understand and process information that would normally take a lifetime for any normal human

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Scans are available in elizhaa post

 

[Elizhaa]

I would say Ultimate Skill users' knowledge is superior to all of creation rather than what they have, as it doesn't look indexed or stated in series; evidently, on the primary point, it would scale from Rimuru's case, who didn't know about their laws until he got his Ultimate Skill.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

My thoughts are more or less the same as Elizhaa's.

 

[Agnaa]

Can anyone here justify this batch of changes? Particularly, the addition of "Information Manip Type 2" for someone who previously just had Soul Manip, linking to this thread? I don't see that discussed anywhere here, and this thread is somewhat old....

 

[Shiraito983]

Can anyone here justify this batch of changes? Particularly, the addition of "Information Manip Type 2" for someone who previously just had Soul Manip, linking to this thread? I don't see that discussed anywhere here, and this thread is somewhat old....

I think it's about destroying souls which is composed of infinite type 2.

 

[Agnaa]

I think it's about destroying souls which is composed of infinite type 2.

I only see one scan in the OP supporting that, it's terribly translated, and it wasn't cleanly proposed in the OP, or seemingly accepted by staff in this thread.

@Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus

Do you think that characters from this verse who can destroy souls should get Information Manip Type 2?

 

[CodeCCLL]

Do you think that characters from this verse who can destroy souls should get Information Manip Type 2?

Aren't these enough?

 

[Agnaa]

Aren't these enough?

I don't have enough knowledge to evaluate this. It seems wholly based off of "Assuming that the mind and spirit are also information, it's not impossible", which seems like it has very important surrounding context that I don't know, with how uncertain the wording is. "If we assume X is Y, then Z" isn't very convincing evidence for X being Y. Especially when you post another scan, saying that "X forms a protective shell around N which has Y", implying that there is a distinction between the two.

I'd rather wait for a member knowledgeable on the verse to verify this.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I don't have enough knowledge to evaluate this. It seems wholly based off of "Assuming that the mind and spirit are also information, it's not impossible", which seems like it has very important surrounding context that I don't know, with how uncertain the wording is.

I'd rather wait for a member knowledgeable on the verse to verify this.

1, 2 (Other scans that the Soul consists of information)

If you want a more detailed explanation other than scans about why the soul consists of information type 2, I can give it or you can also wait for Elizhaa.

In fact, this web novel scan may be useful for you to understand the context.

"Summoning. It means to be summoned to the material world from the spiritual world. By obtaining a temporary body, the pleasures of the surface could be tasted. That is smell, touch and taste. I could collect enough information to control the world. A summoned demon without an ego seems to be affected by the personality of the Summoning master. Various kind of information is received from the summoner's side. According to the contents of the request, it seemed that I could obtain a lump of information called "Soul". *We could evolve into higher beings if we collected a lot of "Souls"." - Intermission:Venom's Story -

 

[Agnaa]

1, 2 (Other scans that the Soul consists of information)

If you want a more detailed explanation other than scans about why the soul consists of information type 2, I can give it or you can also wait for Elizhaa.

In fact, this web novel scan may be useful for you to understand the context.

"There's an ego, then some data particles surrounding it, then a crystallized energy covering all of that. We call the crystallized energy the soul." Does not mean that the soul is information; it's a protective shell around some information, and can be destroyed without information manipulation.

"Death Streak only penetrates Information Particles, and can even destroy the soul." Might work depending on context. Since any example of it harming anything non-informational would imply that this actually means that while it penetrates Information Particles, it can destroy other things as well.

The third scan works, but is for a different canon.

I don't so much need a "detailed explanation" or "context", I just need a staff member's approval. Or if I'm to approve it, it's not like I can't comprehend the idea of a soul being information, it's just that the evidence shown is insufficient.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I based my approval off the fact that souls contained information going off the stuff mentioned by the OP and other stuff mentioned. I'm not well versed in Information Manipulation or the verse itself so I can't provide context. I don't mind waiting for a better explanation for it or s more knowledgeable user giving there input.

 

[Agnaa]

Ah, I didn't even realize you accepted that part. The OP only briefly mentioned it, it wasn't mentioned in the OP's conclusion or impacts on the profiles, and was almost completely absent from staff members' evaluations of this thread.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose Agnaa raises some good points.

 

[Mizuki67]

so this just needs clarification

 

[Elizhaa]

I only see one scan in the OP supporting that, it's terribly translated, and it wasn't cleanly proposed in the OP, or seemingly accepted by staff in this thread.

@Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus

Do you think that characters from this verse who can destroy souls should get Information Manip Type 2?

I think it is valid; everything is supposed to be made of information particles or information. Mechanism-wise, even skills, which powers stem from things like soul manipulation, influence the laws of reality from the last scan. I saw the soul manipulation working on the mechanism of information manipulation to keep the point briefs, similar to what is on the power page but on a less mundane scale.

1. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

I think it is valid; everything is supposed to be made of information particles or information. Mechanism-wise, even skills, which powers stem from things like soul manipulation, influence the laws of reality from the last scan. I saw the soul manipulation working on the mechanism of information manipulation to keep the point briefs, similar to what is on the power page but on a less mundane scale.

1. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

There's this too

"Is it possible to interfere with the substance smaller than a photon, and smaller than spiriton?" Luminous ask
"it serves as the root of the World, so yes its possible"-Volume 21

 

[Agnaa]

I think it is valid; everything is supposed to be made of information particles or information. Mechanism-wise, even skills, which powers stem from things like soul manipulation, influence the laws of reality from the last scan. I saw the soul manipulation working on the mechanism of information manipulation to keep the point briefs, similar to what is on the power page but on a less mundane scale.

1. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

I don't really understand what you're saying.

If you're saying that everything in the world is made of information, and so that manipulation of everything is also information, I think that's a really bad standard to have. I don't think ordinary humans in the setting with matches should have information manipulation because they're manipulating fire which is information. They can't apply that in any meaningful way, and effects from that don't do anything beyond what a match would do in any other setting, despite the informational basis.

If you're trying to say something else, it's hard to tell. You didn't just link one scan, you linked half a dozen, and the two I've read had nothing to do with souls or information. Did you post the wrong thing?

 

[Mizuki67]

I don't really understand what you're saying.

If you're saying that everything in the world is made of information, and so that manipulation of everything is also information, I think that's a really bad standard to have. I don't think ordinary humans in the setting with matches should have information manipulation because they're manipulating fire which is information. They can't apply that in any meaningful way, and effects from that don't do anything beyond what a match would do in any other setting, despite the informational basis.

If you're trying to say something else, it's hard to tell. You didn't just link one scan, you linked half a dozen, and the two I've read had nothing to do with souls or information. Did you post the wrong thing?

this scan https://imgur.com/gallery/oxA8EL7 said that the mind and spirit can also be information tho. I checked the translation and they are still information even the skills are information which is an abstract thing that serves as the root of the world

 

[Agnaa]

I already responded to that scan earlier.

Given that context, that makes me find it more weird. The life form (including its mind and spirit) wasn't already composed of "information particles", it had to be transformed into that.

It sounds like you're confusing "information can describe it" with "it is literally composed of information particles, which can be manipulated to cause these effects".

 

[Mizuki67]

I already responded to that scan earlier.

Given that context, that makes me find it more weird. The life form (including its mind and spirit) wasn't already composed of "information particles", it had to be transformed into that.

It sounds like you're confusing "information can describe it" with "it is literally composed of information particles, which can be manipulated to cause these effects".

didnt the op argued that the mind and spirit is a different thing. I will just wait for Elizhaa reply

Now there's always a massive misunderstanding between Information and Information Particles in the series First of all information particle literally is like every other quanta- (They are the core of the literal Universe or even the multiverse but is it really the core of "Everything" the answer is NO, although the good thing is that it won't literally affect their Scaling such as their Regeneration and all

«Negative. Based on current circumstances, it is impossible. Insufficient access to interfere with the smallest physical unit, ‘information particles.’»

Even though lately we discussed how its "Smallest unit" and not physical unit its still a god damn "small" unit addition to this

-As I worried about what to do, Chronoa suddenly made an unexpected proposal.

-An ‘information particle’ was a substance smaller than even ‘spiritrons,’ and was close to having no mass at all. All matter in the world had to contain ‘information particles

They explicitly mentioned all "Matter" they didn't say "All things" the soul and the mind aren't "Matter" they are information before i get to that here's a last minute

 

[Elizhaa]

Information particles are the smallest unit of all things, assuming that you are at this point. Just because someone can use magic doesn't mean they can manipulate information, which is similar to the analogy: just because a magic system can create fire, doesn't it also manipulate matter either. The soul is like a great unit of information particles that can be manipulated, so basically, the characters are manipulating information.

 

[Agnaa]

Information particles are the smallest unit of all things, assuming that you are at this point. Just because someone can use magic doesn't mean they can manipulate information, which is similar to the analogy: just because a magic system can create fire, doesn't it also manipulate matter either. The soul is like a great unit of information particles that can be manipulated, so basically, the characters are manipulating information.

If that's established, that'd be good.

But so far, the scans shown related to that simply say "The soul is a protective layer around information" and "A character learned that another character was turned into information particles, wondered how that was possible, and then said that if we assume that their mind and spirit, like matter, are information such a transformation into information particles would be possible".

Neither of which seem to actually establish "The soul is a great unit of information particles, and so, those who manipulate it are manipulating information". Especially with the analogy you yourself point out.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

If that's established, that'd be good.

But so far, the scans shown related to that simply say "The soul is a protective layer around information" and "A character learned that another character was turned into information particles, wondered how that was possible, and then said that if we assume that their mind and spirit, like matter, are information such a transformation into information particles would be possible".

Neither of which seem to actually establish "The soul is a great unit of information particles, and so, those who manipulate it are manipulating information". Especially with the analogy you yourself point out.

I sent a scan, information particle is a carrier of information and according to this scan from volume 21- it works in the Same way as Type 1 Concepts

"Is it possible to interfere with the substance smaller than a photon, and smaller than spiriton?" Luminous ask
"it serves as the root of the World, so yes its possible"-Volume 21

Ultima was talking about it, type 1 and type 2 conceptual beings and abilities are also compromised of information as well, and yes the mind and spirit is also information

 

[Agnaa]

I sent a scan, information particle is a carrier of information and according to this scan from volume 21- it works in the Same way as Type 1 Concepts

Ultima was talking about it, type 1 and type 2 conceptual beings and abilities are also compromised of information as well, and yes the mind and spirit is also information

I don't understand what that quote has to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Mizuki67]

I don't understand what that quote has to do with the topic at hand.

i think he is trying to say that information particles serves as the root of the world and if u interfere with it. It is the same as interfering with a concept according to this scan from volume 21 which means the world is made up of information and information particles. You can transmit information/data we learned this in volume 19 mind and souls are information same as skills. The information particle just serve as a carrier for information thats all

https://imgur.com/gallery/RfXmTmy

 

[Agnaa]

The conclusions you're drawing don't come from the information in the scans presented to me.

 

[Mizuki67]

Can these scans work then. Over here it says that the amount of souls can be transferred to people and these souls they are some information that works almost the same way as skills

The conclusions you're drawing don't come from the information in the scans presented to me.

https://imgur.com/gallery/YbI1pjn

 

[Agnaa]

Can these scans work then. Over here it says that the amount of souls can be transferred to people and these souls they are some information that works the almost the same way as skills

https://imgur.com/gallery/YbI1pjn

So that scan involves two characters. One of them gets handed more souls than expected, the other character says they didn't need as many souls as they thought they would, since they're better at handling information particles than expected.

I don't think that quite implies that destroying souls involves destroying information. Especially given the prior statement that souls are protective shells around information; destroying the soul could leave the information exposed, while transferring them could involve transferring the information along with it.

And frankly, with 20 novels of a series that talks about information particles so much, if y'all need to reach this far to try to get "Soul destruction = information destruction", that makes me think such a thing isn't consistently represented in the text.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

And frankly, with 20 novels of a series that talks about information particles so much, if y'all need to reach this far to try to get "Soul destruction = information destruction", that makes me think such a thing isn't consistently represented in the text.

The Soul in Tensura is made up on 3 specific parts, The Ego, The source of all intentions and will. The Ego is Surrounded by a Super cluster of Information partiacles. known as the Core. The core serve as a Container for both the ego as well as recoding of the information gathered. and then the Core is surounded by Spiritons ( that is currently irrelevent for the Information type 2 proff)

Sources
Tensura wiki

Ever since the incident with Shion’s death, Raphael-san had been analyzing people’s souls. So far things had been going well, and we had almost figured out the laws and principles behind it. This applied not only to humans, but monsters, whose souls could be quantified. It was a matter of the pieces called the “Information Particle.” As long as one could control this, they may in a sense control life and death.

Disregarding the quality of animals and plants’ souls, whose quantities were fairly low, humans, on the other hand, possessed souls that contained immense power.

I had made sure that everyone here would be given an equal proportion. And depending on whether a person could utilize the energy that was their soul well—it could lead to the person discovering their soul’s power that could be compared to skills.

The information embedded in one’s soul was the source of one’s strength. If that was the case, was it possible to directly imbue information to energy—Well, that was unlikely.

First of all, there would be plenty of “selfs” that existed on different wavelengths, and the combined entity of Information Particles would encapsulate them—thus forming a core that included all of the information.

The crystallization of the energy that encapsulated one’s core would be their “soul.” The Emulated Soul for example, was developed to be used as the container for such a core. The core projected into an Emulated Soul contained no energy, but it possessed “selfs.” A soul without power could not perform any skills, yet it could act when the “self” was present.

Volume 13 Epilouge
To simplify, it is impossible to fully "destroy" a soul without actualy destroying the information partiacles.

 

[Agnaa]

Well, that contradicts this scan I was given earlier, and seems like a kinda shoddy translation, so idk.

If you can get another scan that says something like that, then sure, I'd rule out the one I got earlier as an outlier.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Well, that contradicts this scan I was given earlier, and seems like a kinda shoddy translation, so idk.

Data partiacles is another alternative for Information partiacles. as proven here
情報子
Data Particle
Information Particle
infons

So it dosen't really contradikt anything.

Though i can try to find some more examples if you want?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Some more stuff that may or may not strenghten to prove that the soul is Information type 2 (getting close to midnight so i am tired so my arguments may not be the best, if their is something missing i will fix it tomorow when i wake up.

I think that Shizu-san’s ‘Deviant’ was derived from her soul. Then it was entrusted to me. That is why even I can use it now, and if it wasn’t for that, I wouldn’t have been able to acquire it. Somehow, I think that the Skills engraved in the soul are more powerful. Incidentally, the Ultimate Enchantment ‘Alternative’ skills given by Rudra were, of course, engraved in the body. If one is not a ‘Saint,’ then they will not have enough energy to use it, presumably because they did not receive the power themselves, and therefore would not use it efficiently. That’s why it was so powerful, but could be combated against even at the unique level.

Volume 16. chapter 2
Some skills are attached to the Soul, (mainly Unique or higher) another example of that is here

«’Isolation’ of the information particles that constituted Clayman’s heart has been completed. Would you like to combine them together to make up for Teare’s missing components?»

When I was asked this question, I agreed to do so. Looking back on it, I had swallowed Clayman’s end whole. I thought I had absorbed all of him as energy, but it seems that the residue had been placed in ‘Isolation.’ I didn’t want to leave such a thing behind, and I thought Clayman would be happier to return to his friends rather than to remain in my body. Perhaps, Ciel-san could have revived Clayman completely. It seemed to me that the success rate would have been reasonably high if the Emulated Soul had been inhabited by the information particle residue and given a temporary body. But I never heard the answer.

Volume 19 chapter 1

 

[Agnaa]

Data partiacles is another alternative for Information partiacles. as proven here
情報子
Data Particle
Information Particle
infons

So it dosen't really contradikt anything.

Though i can try to find some more examples if you want?

I know?

The reason it contradicts is because it says "The crystallized energy that covers this heart is what we call the soul", indicating that the "soul" isn't the amorphous wavelengths, nor the information particles surrounding those, but the crystallized energy protecting those.

The scans you presented in the next post don't really help with that issue.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

I know?

The reason it contradicts is because it says "The crystallized energy that covers this heart is what we call the soul", indicating that the "soul" isn't the amorphous wavelengths, nor the information particles surrounding those, but the crystallized energy protecting those.

The scans you presented in the next post don't really help with that issue.

For more information

 

[Jozaysmith?]

if you have time you can read it, the soul and body of tensura characters is too complex for one who isn't inept with the series to explain and no offense @Dark_Soul20189 doesn't know much of the series, so he can't really make you understand
The intention of everything or being is usually turned to information that will be transmitted by the soul or astral body
The astral body is the mind- information of experience
The spiritual body is the life force
The material body is the container or vessel
Soul
Soul wavelength
Soul energy
Heart core
Etc are all information that is glued to reality itself, something like everything about each character is already a recorded event

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I know?

The reason it contradicts is because it says "The crystallized energy that covers this heart is what we call the soul", indicating that the "soul" isn't the amorphous wavelengths, nor the information particles surrounding those, but the crystallized energy protecting those.

The scans you presented in the next post don't really help with that issue.

It dosen't really, as i mentionned earlier with the link i sent here it mentioneds how the soul is diveded into 3 parts The Ego, The Super cluseter of infons, and The dense collection of Spiritrons. The dense collection of the SPiritrons Is also often refered to as the "soul". While the two words are the exact same it is almost impossible to tell whice they are refering to without more context..... I hope that clear some stuff up, if not i will try to find some more sources from the novel as refrences instead.