About Infinite Zamasu and Zeno.

[Nehz_XZX]

Future Zeno =/= Present Zeno

The one who erases everything just because he saw the Earth in that condition and then floats about like a little child as if nothing happened, is uncaring.

Aren't both of the Zenos supposed to be pretty much the same? I don't see why they would be so different compared to each other even if it is just in that one regard.

 

[AKM sama]

Why would they be same? Present Zeno isn't that caring either if you think about it. He had a pretty dumb and uncaring logic if he thought that the last man standing would definitely make a specific wish.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Why would they be same? Present Zeno isn't that caring either if you think about it. He had a pretty dumb and uncaring logic if he thought that the last man standing would definitely make a specific wish.

They are counterparts of each other who have led exactly the same life until the point of time where the timelines deviated from each other. Unless something happened after that deviation between the timelines that significantly affected Future Zeno's personality they should have pretty much the same personality unless specified otherwise.

As for Present Zeno, we don't know exactly what went through his head when he made that decision but you do have a point.

 

[ProudLearner]

There are two options here:

1. Infinte Zamasu fused with the future timeline and almost made to the present and Future Zeno erased future timeline.

2. Goku Black destruction across all 12 Universes such as destroying the Super Dragon Balls, Killing all 12 Kais, etc..Also, Infinte Zamasu fusing with U7 and almost invading present U7 made Future Zeno erase IZ along with all 12 Universes.

 

[AKM sama]

2nd obv.

1st is too big a stretch to assume without any evidence.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

We have no proof he even knew about the Stuff in Option 2

 

[AKM sama]

We do. Gowasu said he was becoming the universe, and after a while he started leaking into the present. That's it. We don't assume the highest rating when there is lack of evidence, we stay with the lowest.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with AKM Sama, and if Zamasu was only merging with Universe 7, then that would imply U7 has its own space-time as it would make no sense for him to be visable in the Present Timeline if he hasn't at least merged with an entire timeline already. And both present and Future timelines are completely separate timelines altogether. As the timeline Goku Black originated is the what if timeline if no one had knowledge prior or if Beerus hadn't Hakai'd present Zamasu altogether. So that's actually a 3rd timeline right there. And we all know how Trunks timelime came to be in the first place.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

But a Timeline in DB has 12 Universes (Isn't that the reason why Heroes are the strongest 2-Bs?), if he fused with the Timeline then he's 2-C, and There's no reason why Zeno would Erase 12 Universes if Zamasu only fused with one

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, I know. There are such things as Brane Cosmologies or Meta-Universes. Basically timelines containing multiple timelines. There have been debates that Universes 1-12 are within a shared space-time. Zamasu is clearly Low 2-C via the Space-Time merging; however, it's because of the assumption that he only merged with U7 is the only thing that justifies U7 even being Low 2-C as opposed to 3-A structured to begin with. Other wise, if we assumed Zamasu already merged with all 12 Universes, the feat would still be Low 2-C and Zeno would need to be downgraded to just "At least Low 2-C".

However, as for my thoughts, I think we should just continue keeping them rated the way they are right now.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Zamasu merging with the present but not other universes in the past makes no sense. Neighboring universes are closer than a whole other timeline, and Zeno destroyed the timeline because he said a world like this must disappear.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Fiction is just weird like that. But anyway, AKM Sama is right that we shouldn't assume the highest possible rating.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Downgrading Zeno makes sense

 

[ProudLearner]

I agree with AKM Sama

 

[Dragomer]

The ratings doesn't matter, it doesn't change that Zeno erasing the 12 universe when it's unneeded and condamning himself to a void for no reason make no sense and contradict everything we've been shown since then and we know Zeno had no idea about ANY of the stuff Zamasu did in the other universe since he litteraly didn't know about infinite Zamasu until he was called, Zamasu's whole plan was to stay unnoticed by the GoD until it's too late, he wasn't going to advertise himself to Zeno. Hell, why would he erase his own house for no reason ?

And saying Present Zeno =/= Future Zeno make no sense since the anime goes out of it's way to make them the same and act the same and even if they were different, what we saw of the TOP was a joint decision by both of them.

I don't see how ratings tell me why we assume Zeno suddenly acted the exact opposite of everything we've been later shown and told.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I agree with Dragomer tbh.

 

[Omegas03]

Though if we scale UIO1 Goku to 12 Universes it would sound EXTREMELY fishy, I am neutral on this tbh.

 

[Dragomer]

Though if we scale UIO1 Goku to 12 Universes it would sound EXTREMELY fishy, I am neutral on this tbh.

I'm just asking about why we keep presenting the Zeno and Zamasu situation that way when the previous reasons don't make sense anymore, i don't really care about the tiers involved, it's not a CRT after all.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Honestly, it feels like there is too many mental gymnastics to justify Zamasu not being 2-C. You have to assume so many things.

Why is Future Zeno less caring than Present Zeno? Because of Goku? Let's go back over what the Grand Priest stated.

• "Zeno-sama foresaw this outcome...that the warrior standing at the end, would be virtuous enough to consider other universes."

• "If a selfish wish had been made, he would have erased everything."

Now, the only part that indicates Zeno has 'changed' is Whis stating:

• Perhaps Zen-Oh sama has expectations. That Goku and friends can change something. That mortals can change."

However, this is logically inconsistent. We know Zeno was planning to hold the Tournament of Power because of Goku vs Hit entertaining him, but Future Zeno had no such impetus.

It is, however, stated that Zeno had intended on erasing the 'lesser' universes so he could manage the 'greater' universes easier.

Does that mean Zeno doesn't care? On the contrary, no. Zeno's first appearance in the entire series is him checking on Universe 7 and 6's performance.He wanted to ensure the Gods of Destruction were managing their universes properly.

Zeno's entire impetus for wanting to destroy the lower 8 universes was:

• A) Because the Destroyers were doing a poor job

• B) He wanted to redirect his energy towards the Destroyers doing their jobs properly

Not because he wanted to erase all existence or that he 'didn't care'.

So why did Zeno hold the Tournament of Power? Simple. He saw Goku and Hit fighting, and believed mortals still had potential. His gambit was to test the virtue of mortals from the worst universes and to see if they had power, and the virtue to use that power properly.

With the above in mind, why would Future Zeno erase every single universe in the future? It's completely OOC for Zeno to not care about the universes. It's OOC for Zeno to erase all of the universes, because he clearly wants to put effort into them and it's OOC for him to erase the universes due to a god running wild. His entire reason for erasing the lower universes was to make it easier to manage the higher quality universes.

So overall, it's OOC as hell for Future Zeno to erase all the universes. The only thing that changed with Present Zeno, meeting Goku, is that he wanted to give the lower universes a chance. Zeno's care and management of the multiverse has always been a major part of his personality, long before meeting Goku.

So either:

• Future Zeno saw no more worth in the multiverse

• Future Zeno erased Infinite Zamasu, and erased the multiverse as a result of Zamasu being the multiverse.

We know Zeno highly values the multiverse, wants to develop it further and his reasoning for erasing the lower universes was so he could manage the higher universes better. Zamasu essentially completed those goals for him, so there is no reason for Zeno to erase them.

Thus, the latter must be correct. Zeno erased the multiverse because there was no other option to defeat Zamasu.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

So, based upon my above analysis the only reason for Future Zeno to erase the multiverse arbitarily, is if it was due to Zamasu killing all of the Supreme Kais and GoDs, but we know Zeno can appoint new Gods of Destruction on a whim and we know Supreme Kais can be birthed if required. We also know Angels can accelerate physical development and birth. So it can't be the GoDs and Angels.

Is it the mortals? Surely not. Zamasu has no way to defeat Jiren, and I doubt he could have defeated Hit with the power he had before attacking Future U7. Logically, all of the mortals must still exist. And, as established, Zeno does care about the universes and only ever intended on erasing the 8 lowest universes to focus on the Top 4 universes.

So there is no reason for Zeno to erase the multiverse unless he had to.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Great analysis as always @CryoTheMayo ! I'm inclined to agree tbh. It's the conclusion that requires the least assumptions and is far more in line with Zeno's character.

 

[Eminiteable]

Cyro makes sense, I agree with his conclusion.

 

[Iisdude1]

About the argument that the characters would be too strong if they could destroy every universe since it's a big thing To everybody.

goku cares about the earth and doesn't want to see it destroyed, the earth itself however, is nothing to goku. it's the same thing with the universes. Wanting to protect something and destructive capacity are obviously not the same thing.

 

[AKM sama]

So much mental gymnastics and assumptions.

Literally nothing suggests Zamasu had merged with all the universes and we've had this discussion many times. No new evidence has been brought up here. The simple fact is that we know Zamasu merged with one, future Zeno destroyed everything. Period.

Why he did that? We were not told. There could be a ton of reasons, the closest reason we were given is that Zeno is just like that. He once destroyed 6 universes when he was annoyed. And would have destroyed another 8 if the last man standing did not make a specific wish, where he did not factor in that the last man standing could have been an evil like Freeza in a universe filled with other good guys who were not strong enough to make it to a tournament of power, literally a tournament where your power decides if your universe gets erased or spared. That's not him being caring, that's him being aggressively uncaring.

I'm inclined to close this thread now.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

As I explained, it's extremely OOC for Zeno to destroy the future multiverse unless he was forced to. Claiming he destroyed the entire multiverse over a single universe being corrupted just doesn't make sense with how the writers depict the character.

We have absolutely zero context for why he destroyed those six universes, just that he got angry and Zeno displayed zero anger regarding Zamasu. and we know his justification and reasoning for wanting to destroy the eight universes during the ToP.

So if he wasn't angry, and had no reasoning to destroy multiple universes then it can only be a result of being forced.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

To add further, it's VERY clear Zamasu is with the multiverse. Goku asks Zeno if he should erase Zamasu, Zeno goes "You're right, a world like this shouldn't exist." And, as established, Zeno erasing all universes for no reason is OOC.

If Zeno is contextually referring to Zamasu as the 'world' and he erased the entire multiverse, when he affirmed Zamasu is 'the world' and it isn't IC for him to erase the multiverse on whims alone, then you are only left with the conclusion that Zamasu merged with the multiverse.

 

[AKM sama]

Uhh no it's not OOC as I pointed out just now. Zeno has been stated to made rash decisions like that all the time. The context for him destroying the 6 universe is just that he was annoyed. Nothing else. The context of him willing to destroy another 8 universes was just his bad sense of judgment and rash decision. He doesn't care, he was literally playing around in the void. Zeno wasn't even aware of what happened until Goku pointed it out, so there's no way of him knowing if Zamasu had merged with the universe or multiverse.

Again, there is literally zero proof of Zamasu being 2-C. And such grand assumptions will not grant him that tier, even when the assumptions themselves have grand leaps in logic.