About Hyperdimension Neptunia...

[Furudo_Erika]

There is no evidence that the universes themselves are 9D.
The space that contains them is 9D though.
(Quick side question; if universes are 4D, then is the space that "holds" them in a multiverse higher-dimensional space? As the space exists beyond the spacetime continuum?)
(Even if said universes are infinite in size? I dunno, something that bugged me for the longest time)

 

[Ogbunabali]

There is no evidence that the universes themselves are 9D.
The space that contains them is 9D though.

They have to be 9D because otherwise they wouldn't have coordinates 9 dimensional coordinates. A 3D objects can't exist on a 7D axis if it doesn't occupy that space. The same way a square doesn't exist in the height axis, as it lacks it.

(Quick side question; if universes are 4D, then is the space that "holds" them in a multiverse higher-dimensional space? As the space exists beyond the spacetime continuum?)
(Even if said universes are infinite in size? I dunno, something that bugged me for the longest time)

It could be, but it isn't assumed by default. But it's not that hard to get there if there's context of the additional space that encloses them, as it's a very easy bridge to cross if you're explaining it.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

They have to be 9D because otherwise they wouldn't have coordinates 9 dimensional coordinates. A 3D objects can't exist on a 7D axis if it doesn't occupy that space. The same way a square doesn't exist in the height axis, as it lacks it.

It could be, but it isn't assumed by default. But it's not that hard to get there if there's context of the additional space that encloses them, as it's a very easy bridge to cross if you're explaining it.

So from this, it IS possible to have lower-dimensional objects resting in higher-dimensional space?
The space inside these universes would be 3D space, but outside of them is 4D space. So, you could "pick up" this 3D space and move it from its position, altering its 4D coordinate in higher-dimensional space...assuming the verse has established this?

 

[Ogbunabali]

So from this, it IS possible to have lower-dimensional objects resting in higher-dimensional space?
The space inside these universes would be 3D space, but outside of them is 4D space. So, you could "pick up" this 3D space and move it from its position, altering its 4D coordinate in higher-dimensional space...assuming the verse has established this?

I mean, yeah. Every higher dimensional object is made out of it's lower dimensional parts. 3D space is 3 distinct axis, etc. But again, I see what you're trying to get at here, but you would need some very specific explanations for what you're implying.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Neptunia is a verse that doesn't explicitly explain its cosmology in detail. I can see why though, it is a parody on the video game industry and is made to be fun and lighthearted most of the time...so they don't want to bore their audience with a lot of math and science, because of this...it is pretty difficult to get a lot of evidence explaining the cosmology.
Simply put; 4D objects resting in 9D space, with one moving throughout this space on the 9th axis.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

But...there's also the canon problem. As in, what IS canon in the verse?
Some people say that none of it is canon...while others say all of it is canon, taking place in different dimensions.
It is true that these dimensions have different timelines entirely (Just look at Super Dimension, Hyper Dimension, and Ultra Dimension), but again...what is "canon"?

In Victory and Re;Birth 3, Neptune references the Conquest End from mk2 and Re;Birth 2, implying it is a canonical ending.
This could also just be more 4th Wall shenanigans, but it doesn't change the fact it was mentioned in the "main story".

 

[Ogbunabali]

But...there's also the canon problem. As in, what IS canon in the verse?
Some people say that none of it is canon...while others say all of it is canon, taking place in different dimensions.
It is true that these dimensions have different timelines entirely (Just look at Super Dimension, Hyper Dimension, and Ultra Dimension), but again...what is "canon"?

In Victory and Re;Birth 3, Neptune references the Conquest End from mk2 and Re;Birth 2, implying it is a canonical ending.
This could also just be more 4th Wall shenanigans, but it doesn't change the fact it was mentioned in the "main story".

Can't really help here. You would have to see what the company's comments are on it, take retcons into account, how every game interacts with each other etc. Or if it's a very open ended discussion it should probably be its own thread.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I do know that the original game and mk2 were retconned, but the remakes are pretty much the exact same story.
Although, the verse would likely be way higher if the retcon didn't happen because of this statement.
I HIGHLY doubt it, but perhaps I can get some insight from the company in some way.

 

[thetechmaster36]

While I'm new here, I did see this, and I have played a few Neptunia games before, so I'd like to give my input.

General:
4th Wall Awareness: That's a given, the games are littered with multiple fourth-wall breaks and meta references.
AP: As much as I would like 2-B/2-A Neptunia, I simply don't see it happening. SHG is non-canon, as well as SNRPG, so that can't be considered as said before. We have only seen three entirely different universes in the series (four if you want to count Zero Dimension, but that was only a part of the Heart Dimension, so I personally don't consider that a universe).
Histoire:
AE Type 2: Debatable, I personally am neutral on that.
Omnipresence: Also debatable, am neutral.
Kurome:
Dream Manip./Subjective Reality: I would agree with that, since it has been said a few times that the Heart Dimension is a dream that the sealed away Uzume is having.
Mind Manip./Empathic Manip.: Mind Manip is a bit 'eh', but Empathic Manip, definitely. I think Mind Manip is a bit eh because it wasn't necessarily stated that the CPUs were being mind-controlled, since after Purple Heart was 'snapped out' of it, she was talking about her loathing (or hating) Nepgear, and how she loves her, rather than saying that she was under a mind-controlled state.
Omnipresense: I agree with this, it's been stated multiple times that Heart Dimension is a dream, and that even Kurome herself says that she will 'become Hyper Dimension' in the dialogue for the Ascension Ending final boss.
9-Dimensional Range: Probably the most controversial of them all, so I'm weighing my options, but right now I'm leaning towards disagreeing. The coordinates merely seem to serve as a factor for the plot of the game, rather than having any true relevancy outside of that. Perhaps her range could be Universal, since she is moving Heart Dimension to fall on top of Hyper Dimension, but other than that, I don't think she'll have 9-Dimensional Range.

Anyways, that's my input on it.

EDIT: I actually oversighted the other two comments my bad lol below the original post so here's what I think.
Acausality: As far as I'm concerned, they only have Type 1 Acausality due to their memories not being affected when Kurome rewrote the history of Gamindustri, and since the Type 3 and 4 come from SHG, it can't be used.
High-Godly Regen/Concept Manip Resistance: I agree with both of them being added actually, the catch being that High-Godly Regen can only be accounted for if the Idea Chips are involved (all except for Neptune and S-Sha I think, since they passively regenerate without Idea Chips), so they should all have Concept Manip Resistance by default.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

While it isn't outright confirmation in it, there is this statement statement for infinite dimensions in Neptunia

As for the rest of the CRT, I'm not gonna comment on anything here. At least not at the moment

 

[Planck69]

High-Godly Regen/Concept Manip Resistance: I agree with both of them being added actually, the catch being that High-Godly Regen can only be accounted for if the Idea Chips are involved (all except for Neptune and S-Sha I think, since they passively regenerate without Idea Chips), so they should all have Concept Manip Resistance by default.

The fact that they need something to regenerate from should disqualify them from High-Godly regeneration since that requires that one regenerate from complete destruction on a deeper level than mind, body and soul, that level being the deepest in the setting.

Not only that but unless their destruction was complete and utter just a slash that cuts concepts isn't enough.

Resistance to Concept Manipulation should be fine I think.

 

[thetechmaster36]

The fact that they need something to regenerate from should disqualify them from High-Godly regeneration since that requires that one regenerate from complete destruction on a deeper level than mind, body and soul, that level being the deepest in the setting.

Not only that but unless their destruction was complete and utter just a slash that cuts concepts isn't enough.

Resistance to Concept Manipulation should be fine I think.

Fair enough, but that's exactly why I mentioned 'except for Neptune and S-Sha', they are able to passively regenerate without the use of Idea Chips. So, realistically, they would have High-Godly regen, but I think Concept Manip resistance is fine for me as a standalone.

 

[Antvasima]

@Planck69 and @Ogbunabali :

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Nothing so far, since no evidence has been presented to support any of the claims being made.

 

[thetechmaster36]

I don't think I was able to find all the scans needed for what's in the original posts, but, here.

Dream Manip/Subjective Reality: It's stated by both the Nepedia description for Heart Dimension and Kurome herself to be the case.

Mind and/or Empathic Manip from Kurome: Because of Kurome trapping them in the 'whirlpool of delusion', the CPUs want to kill their sisters and friends and Purple Heart, after being snapped out of it, questioned why she loathed Nepgear and even said that she (Purple Heart) didn't want to hate her (Nepgear) anymore.

Omnipresent Kurome in Heart Dimension: Statements about how Heart Dimension is a dream and creation of the sealed away and sleeping Uzume are mentioned, as well as Nepgear saying Kurome's soul is connected to Heart Dimension, with S-Sha shortly after saying that Kurome is one with the Heart Dimension, essentially saying that she herself is Heart Dimension, which would give her Omnipresence there.

Acausality (only Type 1): At the beginning of the second arc of Megadimension Neptunia, Kurome was able to rewrite Gamindustri and its history, Histoire reiterating later in the game that Gamindustri's history was indeed altered. However, the CPUs' memories were unaffected by it, as well as Compa, a few random citizens, Histoire, the Gold Third, and shortly after that, IF regained her memories as well. Side note: You could argue that this is a resistance to Memory Manipulation, but given what we see at the moment, I don't find that to be the case.

Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation: The description of Next Purple's 'Dimensional Slice' attack states that it 'slices through even the concept of the opponent', which is in tandem with their resistance to it because of Kurome saying that the newly created Dark CPUs absorb their powers and recreate them, which would include Next Purple's Dimensional Slice. The cast had already faced off against three of these new Dark CPUs, which would grant them the resistance.

As for the 9-Dimensional Coordinates: There are scenes in which these coordinates are brought up (albeit, in the last example, the numbers are not displayed nor mentioned, simply that the Heart and Hyper Dimensions are closer to each other), and while it is stated that the coordinates don't normally change, Croire notes (near the end of the game ffs) that with Rei Ryghts' power, moving dimensions is 'a cinch' using only a small portion said power. However, these only seem to serve as a plot factor, not having any real relevance outside of Kurome's goal of wanting to fuse the two dimensions together, so this is debatable as to whether or not it can be used.

But, that's really about it from me. I provided the scans that I could, as I couldn't really find anything else for the others.

 

[Planck69]

Empathic Manipulation, Dream Manipulation, Subjective Reality, Omnipresence and Acausality (Type 1) should be fine I think.

Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation would require the scan describing the attack itself.

9-dimensional stuff was already gone over and agreed upon to not mean anything.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Empathic Manipulation, Dream Manipulation, Subjective Reality, Omnipresence and Acausality (Type 1) should be fine I think.

Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation would require the scan describing the attack itself.

9-dimensional stuff was already gone over and agreed upon to not mean anything.

Here's the Dimensional Slice scan:

Apparently the Japanese one also has a similar description, just not told from the perspective of Neptune, but I can't seem to find that one anywhere.

 

[Planck69]

I suppose that can work but I'm far from the best judge on stuff like attack descriptions.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Well, I've done what I can do in terms of providing some justifications and scans for the proposals.

tfw waiting for a crt to bring this verse up to date because it badly needs it

 

[Ogbunabali]

Dream Manip/Subjective Reality: It's stated by both the Nepedia description for Heart Dimension and Kurome herself to be the case.

Seems fine for Dream Manipulation then.

Mind and/or Empathic Manip from Kurome: Because of Kurome trapping them in the 'whirlpool of delusion', the CPUs want to kill their sisters and friends and Purple Heart, after being snapped out of it, questioned why she loathed Nepgear and even said that she (Purple Heart) didn't want to hate her (Nepgear) anymore.

I guess Empathic Manipulation is fine here.

Omnipresent Kurome in Heart Dimension: Statements about how Heart Dimension is a dream and creation of the sealed away and sleeping Uzume are mentioned, as well as Nepgear saying Kurome's soul is connected to Heart Dimension, with S-Sha shortly after saying that Kurome is one with the Heart Dimension, essentially saying that she herself is Heart Dimension, which would give her Omnipresence there.

There's nothing here really showing Omnipresence.

Acausality (only Type 1): At the beginning of the second arc of Megadimension Neptunia, Kurome was able to rewrite Gamindustri and its history, Histoire reiterating later in the game that Gamindustri's history was indeed altered. However, the CPUs' memories were unaffected by it, as well as Compa, a few random citizens, Histoire, the Gold Third, and shortly after that, IF regained her memories as well. Side note: You could argue that this is a resistance to Memory Manipulation, but given what we see at the moment, I don't find that to be the case.

It's extremely dumb, and not even Acausality, but we do actually give type 1 for having memories of an erased time for some reason. So this is fine I guess.

Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation: The description of Next Purple's 'Dimensional Slice' attack states that it 'slices through even the concept of the opponent', which is in tandem with their resistance to it because of Kurome saying that the newly created Dark CPUs absorb their powers and recreate them, which would include Next Purple's Dimensional Slice. The cast had already faced off against three of these new Dark CPUs, which would grant them the resistance.

Random one off statement with no feats that could just be metaphorical from the sound of it, and it's name doesn't even correspond to its description. Yeah, you're gonna need more for this if you want Conceptual Manipulation.

 

[thetechmaster36]

There's nothing here really showing Omnipresence.

Then what would it be considered? I've already established that Kurome herself is Heart Dimension, does that not count as Omnipresence? Or would it be considered Nigh-Omnipresence, given that it's only allocated to that particular area?

It's extremely dumb, and not even Acausality, but we do actually give type 1 for having memories of an erased time for some reason. So this is fine I guess.

IIRC, Acausality type 1 is given to those who are unaffected by changes to the past, correct? So, given that Kurome rewrote Gamindustri's history by erasing peoples' memories of the CPUs, yet the CPUs and other miscellaneous people were unaffected by it, how does that not qualify for Acausality type 1? It's still a change to the past, right?

Random one off statement with no feats that could just be metaphorical from the sound of it, and it's name doesn't even correspond to its description. Yeah, you're gonna need more for this if you want Conceptual Manipulation.

I mean, fair enough, we're really just going off of an attack description for the resistance.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Then what would it be considered? I've already established that Kurome herself is Heart Dimension, does that not count as Omnipresence? Or would it be considered Nigh-Omnipresence, given that it's only allocated to that particular area?

I mean, nothing really. It doesn't seem to warrant any power from the ones we have that I know of. It's not really established that Kurume herself is the Heart Dimension at all actually. The only thing that's slightly alluding to it is the mention that her soul is connected to it and that "being connected to it to this extent", which even at face value wouldn't mean Omnipresence, especially if she doesn't have any feats either.

IIRC, Acausality type 1 is given to those who are unaffected by changes to the past, correct? So, given that Kurome rewrote Gamindustri's history by erasing peoples' memories of the CPUs, yet the CPUs and other miscellaneous people were unaffected by it, how does that not qualify for Acausality type 1? It's still a change to the past, right?

Don't even know what you're arguing here. I already said they'd get it. It's just not Acasuality.

 

[Antvasima]

What Ogbunabali and Planck69 have accepted can probably be applied. Thank you for helping out.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Alright, so to clarify:

• Kurome is guaranteed getting Dream Manipulation/Subjective Reality and Empathic Manipulation
• Most of, if not, the entire cast is getting Acausality Type 1
• Planck agrees with Kurome's Omnipresence but Ogbunabali does not, so it's a toss-up
• Resistance to Concept Manip isn't being added

Correct?

 

[Planck69]

Going over Ogbunabali's points on Omnipresence, I should mention that I agree with him. I wasn't exactly examining that part with a critical eye at the time.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Ah, okay, so disregard that then.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Oh, forgot to mention the 4th Wall Awareness too, that's getting added for sure.

 

[thetechmaster36]

They've been added, someone can close this thread now.

 

[Ogbunabali]

If that's all then, I'll close it.