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About Celestialsapiens Existence Erasure

Existence Erasure is the simple power to remove something from existence, leaving nothing behind, a level of Destruction beyond incineration, vaporization, and atomization. Rather than just reducing something to its constituent parts, this ability leaves absolutely nothing behind. Powerful enough uses of this ability can even erase the mind and soul, if not more fundamental aspects of one's existence, such as concepts.

Attack Potency- An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive Capacity that an attack is equivalent to. A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces.

Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to withstand a certain amount of force. This is not to be confused with endurance; while durability is the ability to withstand damage, endurance is a measure of stamina.

Logically, characters capable of physically achieving a certain degree of energy output, must be able to at least withstand a comparable amount of damage, or their bodies would break apart from the strain and automatic counterforce, whenever they exert themselves.

Doesn't EE count towards AP which in turn scales to Durability?
 
Nah you can perfectly be 9-B with low 2-C EE. The reason most guys in fiction scale to their EE is because they would survive their own erasure of the universe/multiverse which makes no real sense since it's the same logic why we don't give people a resistance to their own time stop.
 
But Alien X does survive at least an attack on the level of what he's doing. Namely, the Anihilaargs itself.
 
Yeah that and the Chrono Navigator is why Alien X has a better case than most other characters who EE and get it scaled to their durability.
 
@Greenshifter Zeno scaling to his EE is legit, he did his multiversal feat while clearly being hit with his EE that had 0 effect on hjim. Not sure about Dimentio and Count Bleck having 2-B durability tho, especially Count Bleck. @Epic, not sure if it works that way with EE.
 
Well then we can't just assume that Alien X would survive his own EE based on Servantis scaling? It would be very weird for Servantis to say Ben can wish everything out of existence but Ben would die in the process which makes it very unlikely that he would do it in the first place. On the other hand if Zeno and Dimentio are physically hit with their own EE and Alien X can theoretically execute EE with an omnidirectional blast without touching himself once then technically his durability doesn't have to scale. But my main problem with this is, if we assume Zen'o and Dimentio actually hit themselves with their own EE, then why don't they have a resistance to EE on their profile? Heck Zen'o even had 2-C durability without even being shown to EE once back in 2016.
 
>Again, incorrect, he never destroyed more than 1 universe at once during TOP.

I didn't say he did did I? I said he destroyed universes in general with existence erasure during the tournament. "More than 1" or not doesnt matter. The point is, he did it in general.

>His profile makes sure to say "universes" about his existance erasure's range,

Yes because Zen'o's range of attacking can spread across all 12 universes, as he showed when destroying Infinite Zamasu.

>His AP also clearly says he erased the 12 universes, rather than destroyed, unlike what they say about any other low-2C DBS character. Not that this is remotely relevant for my point tho.

Read above. Plus, you must've forgotten Risci above literally clarifying the destruction of space-time reducing universes to nothing is typical for any tier 2 character. Doesn't mean its literally existenc erasure as a hax ability.

>Now you're just arguing semantics, not to mention they did destroy the universe. First the universe gets destroyed after an infinite amount of time passes, then the universe gets reset.

Im not because resetting the universe and destroying one are different feats. That being said, assuming what your saying is the truth, then thats another reason why it's considered Low 2-C. An infinite amount of time may pass, but the universe doesnt start getting destroyed and reset until time is finished passing.

In other words, they arent destroying the universe within an infinite amount of time. They start destroying it once infinite amounts of time actually passes. It's basically a delayed effect. And delayed feats =/= feats done overtime.

> Destroying an infinite universe but not affecting any space-time is high 3-A, destroying infinite universes that are all in the same space-time continuum is still high 3-A. Destroying a universal spacetime,which is an infinite 4-D area , is low-2 C. So how much time passes from destroying thousands of universes does not matter, each 4-D area is infinite.

This is because those universes are infinite in number and are within the same space-time. Taking finite time to destroy them would still scale you to the tier because the number of is infinite. But in this particular case, the number of universes are finite and are separated by space-time. Thus, finite time DOES effect the feat since they are not infinite in size and the number of them is finite.

This is like saying destroying multiple universal space-times one by one can still get you to 2-C, which is something we absolutely don't apply here.

>Hmm so now you're arguing the the portals werent going to destroy anything? Nothing was going to happen?

Basically. No where near fast enough in the instance that would be required for any character to be 2-B anyway. I dont deny Eon would've eventually destroyed the Multiverse, but the Navigator absolutely wasn't going to immediately destroy it.
 
>but then we need a general thread on people not scaling to their EE since Zeno and Dimentio both do (their durability is 2-B for some reason), because if Alien X's durability is 2-B for scaling to his EE then so is Galactic Gladiator's durability and thus Alien X scales with his physical AP and striking strength as well.

This is extremely flawed scaling. There is no such thing as "Existence Erasure durability", surviving existence erasure only gives you resistance to the hax. And you can't scale durability to resistance. Resistances and durability are entirely seperate.

I do agree on one thing though. Having a general thread addressing the whole existence erasure thing would probably be helpful. Unless a verse has more context to their existence erasure attacks, their AP needs to be downgraded and their pages need to specify they are only in their tier using the hax specifically.
 
>I didn't say he did did I? I said he destroyed universes in general with existence erasure during the tournament. "More than 1" or not doesnt matter. The point is, he did it in general.

.... Zeno used existance erasure to destroy the 12 universes, not something else, his profiles makes that abundantly clear.

>Read above.

OK, he still used EE to destroy the 12 universes, destroying space-time doesnt really counter my argument? I didnt forget anything?

>im not because resetting the universe and destroying one are different feats

It literally takes infinite time for the universe to get destroyed, otherwise it would all just happen at once once the time was set to infinite, which it didnt.

This is because those universes are infinite in number and are within the same space-time.

Yet the tierng system page implies to be low 2-C you need to destroy a 4-D area of infinite size.

'>'Basically. No where near fast enough in the instance that would be required for any character to be 2-B anyway.

The Navigator hadnt even begun destroying anything, it was about to. it doesnt destroy 1 universe at a time, it destroys all of it at once, once all of the timestream has been detoriated completely. If it only destoryed 1 universe at a time, Eon would die long before it ever got to destroy all of existance.

You could also argue that since timelines keep expanding, and eventually will expand to infinity as mentioned by Paradox, the navigator being capable of destroying the entire timestream means it must also be able to destroy future branching timelines.
 
For the record, I still think the statement indicates Celestialsapiens having EE

""With that weapon on his wrist he can turn into a Tokust'ar or pehaps even a Celestialsapien, this grimy child could one day just wish everything out of existence." "

The first part of the statement elaborates what options ben has, and the second is the "do you know what this means" of the statement where he emphasises the full implications. When exclaiming that Ben could erase existence, He is building up on the what he said previously; they aren't separate statements with nothing to do with each other.
 
Andytrenom said:
For the record, I still think the statement indicates Celestialsapiens having EE

""With that weapon on his wrist he can turn into a Tokust'ar or pehaps even a Celestialsapien, this grimy child could one day just wish everything out of existence." "

The first part of the statement elaborates what options ben has, and the second is the "do you know what this means" of the statement where he emphasises the full implications. When exclaiming that Ben could erase existence, He is building up on the what he said previously; they aren't separate statements with nothing to do with each other.
Click to expand...
no need to say this @kuki agreed that Alien x does have EE
 
WOG says there are infinite multiverses, Paradox says timelines branch off infinitely, Paradox clearly shows there are countless timelines in Omniverse as opposed to hundreds, Maltruant states the timestream is infinite, and Holly from Generator Rex says there are infinite timelines. And even if they meant there will only eventually be infinite timelines in the future, since the Chrono Navigator can destroy "all of time", that would also include timelines that would eventually exist.
 
Way to steal my show Door, but good find.

Since this will get discussed, I can say farewell to my 2-B Xeno Goku vs Alien X match.

Now is everyone okay with me bringing up Generator Rex without first scaling Ben and Rex to each other regularly?

Also feels kinda disingenuous to push for Atomix' statement not being legit because it's said by DJW but at the same time use his statement for multiversal + Alien X but whatever, I have better proof than him.
 
Now what you said about alternate timelines is wrong, if everyone is fine with the timing, I'll make a thread on INFINITELY ABOVE BASELINE 2-A BEN 10 COSMOLOGY AND ALIEN X!
 
"Kukui agreed to EE"

Should this be closed then?
 
Yeah I think, if Ricsi doesn't have any further problems with this, but the problem is that we wanna use EE for durability (as in several people with EE get it scaled to their durability) as well and Kukui disagrees with that.
 
EE doesn't scale to durability, kind of a given considering it's durability negation
 
Well I am fine with Alien X's EE not scaling to his durability if those characters get downgraded, preferably with a general thread so I think this thread can be closed then?
 
>WOG says there are infinite multiverses

Just going to start off addressing this. This is a definite and absolute NO. We don't accept these types of author statements here under any circumstances. We actually explicitly BAN them from being accepted because they aren't remotely serious answers. This is just the case of a random vs debating fan annoying authors and asking them debating questions for the sake of wanking their verses. You can even see the person asking if Celestialsapiens are, by pure vs debating terms, "complex multiversal" in the tweet, which authors have absolutely 0 clue what it is or even means.

We don't accept these author statements for any other verse on this site and we aren't going to now.

>.... Zeno used existance erasure to destroy the 12 universes, not something else, his profiles makes that abundantly clear.

And he didn't do that against Infinite Zamasu and Trunk's timeline.

>OK, he still used EE to destroy the 12 universes, destroying space-time doesnt really counter my argument?

It can because you forget destroying space-time effectively achieves the same result as existence erasure. The only difference is the latter is a hax, the former is attack potency.

>It literally takes infinite time for the universe to get destroyed, otherwise it would all just happen at once once the time was set to infinite, which it didnt.

No, it takes an infinite amount of time to start destroying the universe. Not the same thing. It's basically charging up for infinite time, and once infinite time has reached, the feat actually starts to happen.

>Yet the tierng system page implies to be low 2-C you need to destroy a 4-D area of infinite size.

Yes, but we aren't talking about Low 2-C here. We're talking about 2-B, where you are destroying a finite number of universes seperated by space-time.

>The Navigator hadnt even begun destroying anything, it was about to. it doesnt destroy 1 universe at a time, it destroys all of it at once, once all of the timestream has been detoriated completely. If it only destoryed 1 universe at a time, Eon would die long before it ever got to destroy all of existance.

The former is pure headcanon. Eon intentfully unleashed the Navigator to destroy the Multiverse after Paradox explicitly warned him to stop using it. Why say you'll destroy it if it's not actually destroying anything? Not to mention, if it takes time to deteriorate the timestream, thats even more reason why it destroys the multiverse overtime. It slowly has to destablize time so that everything else can be destroyed? A regular typical 2-B would destroy time and space on a 2-B scale immediately. Eon dying before existence gets destroyed isn't a counter argument. That only shows he's foolish.

>You could also argue that since timelines keep expanding, and eventually will expand to infinity as mentioned by Paradox

You cant reach infinity by expanding. Either your infinite or your not. You can infinitely expand, but it still only leaves it at a finite number at all times.

>Now is everyone okay with me bringing up Generator Rex without first scaling Ben and Rex to each other regularly?

This was discussed multiple times already. It was agreed Generator Rex, even if proven canon, has no bearing on Ben 10's Cosmology for a number of reasons.
 
Greenshifter said:
Well I am fine with Alien X's EE not scaling to his durability if those characters get downgraded, preferably with a general thread so I think this thread can be closed then?
Click to expand...
This^ also. If people dont want a downgrade, they can make a case for their characters specifically.

But resisting existence erasure on [insert here] level is not the same as actually tanking an attack on that level. And if using existence erasure as an attack, it needs to be specified on the pages and not be confused for attack potency.
 
I don't think there's a need to respond to what you've said here since it will all be covered in my upgrade thread or the general EE thread. So I think this can be closed.
 
> Just going to start off addressing this. This is a definite and absolute NO. We don't accept these types of author statements here under any circumstances.

Care to show me where this rule is mentioned?

And he didn't do that against Infinite Zamasu and Trunk's timeline.

Yes he did, his profile even clearly states he erased them, rather than destroyed.

>It can because you forget destroying space-time effectively achieves the same result as existence erasure. The only difference is the latter is a hax, the former is attack potency

You are only proving my point.

>No, it takes an infinite amount of time to start destroying the universe. Not the same thing..

Nope, their power work by accelerating time to infinity, and as we can clearly see when time is set to infinite, it takes several page for the universe to be destroyed and recreated, while the time is set to infinite. It's not like they stop the acceleration once the universe is about to be destroyed or recreated, otherwise it would take billions of years to do either.

>Yes, but we aren't talking about Low 2-C here. We're talking about 2-B, where you are destroying a finite number of universes seperated by space-time.

I know, but each universe is an infinite 4-D area, so the CN is still destroying several seperated infinite areas in a finite amount of time.

>The former is pure headcanon. Eon intentfully unleashed the Navigator to destroy the Multiverse after Paradox explicitly warned him to stop using it.

Eon doesnt have a clue as for how the Chrono Navigator works, hence why he didnt even know it was about to destroy anything, until Paradox warned him. The CN works by detoriating the time-stream, Eon creating storms has 0 affect on the timestream. Yea it slowly destabilizes time, but once all of it has been destabilised, it destroys all of it at once. Eon dying shows it cant be something that only destroys 1 universe at a time.

>You cant reach infinity by expanding. Either your infinite or your not. You can infinitely expand, but it still only leaves it at a finite number at all times.

in fiction you can, same reason Enrico Pucci and Kars can accelerate time, despiite clearly being shown to do so gradually. Their profiles even clearly says that time will eventually become infinite. The more they use their power, the faster time speeds up exponentially, eventually becoming infinite. Sure it doesnt logically make sense, but this is fiction.
 
If your upgrade thread is about the 2-A statement Door posted, you might as well not post it because its going to a be waste of time. It's not getting accepted.
 
Nah it's Gen Rex + Maltruant but I will use it as extra evidence. Also before you say that Gen Rex shouldn't be used for Ben 10 cosmology and that it has been discussed already, that was back when people were saying that it is an alternate timeline which I have proof for that it isn't + there has been some stuff going on behind the scenes when it comes to revising Generator Rex as well.

Tho I am kinda busy for the moment so a little patience please.
 
>Care to show me where this rule is mentioned?

My pleasure, here's the thread where this very topic was discussed and a rule was made . And it's also currently posted on our Editing Rules page here too.

"Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate."

>Yes he did, his profile even clearly states he erased them, rather than destroyed.

Then his profile either lacks that justification or its wrong. But im going to drop Zen'o for now since it should wait until the Existence Erasure thread is made. Someone can make a case for him if they dont want him downgraded.

>Nope, their power work by accelerating time to infinity, and as we can clearly see when time is set to infinite, it takes several page for the universe to be destroyed and recreated, while the time is set to infinite.

So your going off of pages here? Thats...not overtime.

>I know, but each universe is an infinite 4-D area, so the CN is still destroying several seperated infinite areas in a finite amount of time.

Which doesn't matter because if that was the case, you could reach 2-C by destroying each infinite 4-D area one by one, which we explicitly don't accept. You have to destroy multiple of them at once. And its the same for 2-B's case. Destroying infinite 4-D areas overtime is just, at best, Low 2-C as that would be the only level of power required to destroy them if not immediately.

>Eon doesnt have a clue as for how the Chrono Navigator works, hence why he didnt even know it was about to destroy anything, until Paradox warned him.

Then why would Paradox want Ben and the others to take any action against Eon? Him not knowing how it works hardly matters when he was still going to do what Paradox explicitly warned him to stop doing.

>The CN works by detoriating the time-stream, Eon creating storms has 0 affect on the timestream. Yea it slowly destabilizes time, but once all of it has been destabilised, it destroys all of it at once

Yeah thats also not 2-B. Thats weakening time overtime to the point where everything can be destroyed because the Multiverse at that point is fragile with destablized time. If anything, it's not even the Navigator destroying it. It's the Multiverse destroying itself from it's destabilized time. If I destabilize a buildings structure first before the whole building collapses, that doesn't make me 8-C. The building just collapses on itself.

>in fiction you ca

Not for the case of universes. Hence why we dont accept infinitely expanding multiverses as 2-A here.
 
>My pleasure

Hmm okay, so if this is the case, Atomix should not be considered to be more powerful than Way Big, because that come from the same source. And possibly other things will have to be removed as well.

>Then his profile either lacks that justification or its wrong.

Alright.

>So your going off of pages here? Thats...not overtime.

Well humans are able to talk just fine, and each passing second take infinite amount of time. Humans cant keep up with the accelerated time, so to their perspective everything starts flying and falling apart, but it doesnt at all happen instantly.

>Which doesn't matter because if that was the case, you could reach 2-C by destroying each infinite 4-D area one by one, which we explicitly don't accept. You have to destroy multiple of them at once.

No, because destroying 1 4-D area with 1 attack but very slowly is not the same as destroying multiple with 1 attack. If you are able to destroy 2000 4-D area with 2000 clearly different attacks, but in less than a pico second to destroy all 2000, you still arent 2-B.

'>'Then why would Paradox want Ben and the others to take any action against Eon?

Because he wanted Eon to stop using it to go to different timelines/ dimensions, like he was constantly doing in the episode? If the storms Eon created had any affect on the destruction, then why did closing the portal, and only the portal completely stop the CN from destroying everything??

'> 'Yeah thats also not 2-B. Thats weakening time overtime to the point where everything can be destroyed because the Multiverse at that point is fragile with destablized time.

If the end-result is still that a 2-B area is destroyed due to it's ability, it is still 2-B. Pretty much exactly the same as for how Enrico Pucci and Kars are low 2-C despite not technically doing any destruction themselves, all they do is speed up something that will eventually happen anyway regardless.

'>'Not for the case of universes. Hence why we dont accept infinitely expanding multiverses as 2-A here.

Not true , look at these 2 profiles. Also, I would like to see where this is established.
 
"Regarding direct information from the author/creator of a character: We do not use statements that are phrased in an uncertain, uncaring, and/or unspecific manner, such as "Could be", "Maybe", "Probably", "Possibly" etcetera. Brief or vague answers to fan-questions via social media are also generally disregarded, whereas more elaborate explanations in serious interviews are usually considered more reliable."

"When a statement from a character, guidebook, or even word of god contradicts what occurs in the series, they won't be used. For example, if an author says that a character from his work is incapable of shattering planets, even though it has destroyed galaxies on-screen, we will always go with the latter, rather than the former. The statement need to be consistent with what has been revealed within the fictional franchise itself. Otherwise, it will be considered invalid."

"Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate."

In other words it's case-by-case and can be used as supporting evidence, which is exactly what I'm gonna do.
 
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