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About 2-B Alien X

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For the record, Biomnitrix fusion is just Gene Splicing.

Two strands of DNA are used to make a new strand of DNA.
 
>What you just implied is nothing but Pure headcannon.

No, it's using common sense to tell the difference between a fully-developed design and a glitch. Adding to the fact that it's never canonically stated that fusion aliens are weaker anyway. What is headcanon here is people assuming they are weaker based off fusions formed from a malfunctio.

>I recall when Ben 10K transformed into Humungoopsaur he couldn't even break a door down with his punches and yet he's rated as High 5-A, which makes no sense yet over the main series, we see Ben prime as Regular Humungousaur regularly shown break though walls, buildings, and boulders with relative ease.

This is as much a inconsistency as literally any character struggling with below-tier enemies in one instance and casually beating in-tier opponents in another instance. In other words, irrelevant low-end outliers. If we were to take this logic seriously...

Goku wouldnt be Low 2-C, Naruto wouldn't be 5-B, Luffy wouldn't be tier 6, and a bunch of countless examples I can name here.

>And what if the Biomnitrix's entire design was to fuse aliens? If Ben 10K were to fuse Stinkarms or Heatjaws, he'll more or less get the same result as Ben did when he was 10.

It matters because you can't compare a fully-developed design to a malfunctioned glitch. It's literally not comparable in any way and trying to compare them is ridiculous and flawed. It's like comparing a machine that does something it's not built to do to another machine that does what it is designed to do. Especially since the original basic Omnitrix wasn't even designed for fusing aliens and could only explicitly do so when Ben played around with it's functioning (it's casing), which makes sense on why the fused aliens would be weaker than the individual original ones. The original omnitrix wasn't built for that

The Biomitrix is nothing like this in the slightest since it was entirely designed for this purpose.
 
I agree with ProfessorKukui4life

It just sounds very iffy putting Alien X 2 sub tiers above Low 2C just over strongest statements which isn't enough evidences putting someone from Low 2C to 2B I mean Alien X being stated as strongest is really iffy as he has shown no feats or anything at strongest level and plus if he really was strongest he would probably be 26 D as this is max Naljins has refered to but he isn't which leaves room of possibility for stronger characters than Alien X but thats also too much basing on assumptions

So either Low 2C or Low 2C possibly 2B sounds fine just the justification alone doesn't look solid enough for solid 2B

But I will stop debating as I have less experience in the matter and I will choose to spectate
 
One last question

Why is Atomic X speed comparable to Alien X and Galactic Gladiator if he is not comparable to Alien X or Galactic Gladiator in strength according to the profile?
 
@ProfessorKukui4Life For the most part I agree with what you've said, though I do have a small counter argument to make. Yes, Paradox says there are multiple Bens across "Dimensions" but as I've stated before in this thread, Omniverse has used Dimension to describe parallel universes before, see Dimension 23. And it's not just Paradox who makes this mistake, even Maltruant calls it the 23rd Dimension even though its not a higher dimension at all. I'll concede the point to you that this doesn't PROVE Ben 10 uses String Theory and leave it at "it's possible, but there isn't enough evidence for it", though I am in the process of compiling some evidence for a higher dimensional Alien X, should have it done in a few days.
 
My area said:
One last question
Why is Atomic X speed comparable to Alien X and Galactic Gladiator if he is not comparable to Alien X or Galactic Gladiator in strength according to the profile?
Click to expand...
Atomic-X needs to be scaled back to Alien X (after this revision is done obviously). There's literally no justification for Atomic-X being weaker. The downgrade is unjustified.
 
@DragonicDoom

Actually, now that I think about it, Omniverse shuts down any possibility of Alien X being a higher dimension being as well. Not saying that your evidence is faulty or anything, but the way that Omniverse depicts higher dimensional beings in relation to lower dimensional beings is a huge disqualifier against Alien X or pretty much anything else being higher dimensional, not just Ben.

Like I said, the Contimelia are blatantly 5-D and no one in the lower dimensions can perceive their true forms, but instread, they perceive them as things that are the closest to their hearts. Like Ben viewing them as Mr. Smoothie drinks or Rook viewing them as his family. This standard proves that in order for something in Ben 10 to be truly higher dimensional, their true forms cannot be perceived by people in the lower realms.
 
While that certainly is true, remember that its 1 occasion and its Omniverse, which has a lot of inconsistencies. By the same token I could say Alien X is extra-dimensional because the Contomelia call the barrier around Maltruant's Annihilaarg is extra dimensional, and Skuurd makes a sword out of Celestialsapien DNA which cuts through it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but its like the Naljian statement, a single occurence doesn't make it fact.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Atomic-X needs to be scaled back to Alien X (after this revision is done obviously). There's literally no justification for Atomic-X being weaker. The downgrade is unjustified.
Click to expand...
I might get Atomix to 7A, which means that Atomic-X will be 7A which means that Maltruant's time beams whose should be superior to Eon's time beams who ragdolled Ben 23's Eye Guy, hurting Atomic-X is not off the table. So I'd suggest to wait with this, also Maltruent usually uses durabilty ignoring attacks, if that's the case in both cases that he hits Atomic-X then it's not PIS, it's just a durabilty ignoring attack. In that case you have a good point of scaling Atomic-X to Alien X, but that won't change anything (also the reason he got downgraded is because of a lack of Bellicus and Serena and seemingly having no time manipulation) as I might also revise the CTB to be an existence erasing bomb utilizing hax and not AP.
 
That seems fair, the CTB would make more sense if it used hax. I mean the fact that Clockwork can reverse it, and Clockwork relies purely on hax and that the CTB is made by his species, its far FAR more likely to be some weird kinda space-time gibberish than just "big boom", especially considering it somehow destroyed a couple hundered timelines but left the area directly around it untouched.
 
The CTB is AP, it's just stated to destroy every timeline with no implication that the method is hax based, no need to look so deep into it.

Clockwork being able to reverse it has no bearing on whether it was hax or not since the timelines were still destroyed and Clockwork would still have to undo the same end result. On top of that Paradox compared the destruction to chopping down the three which symbolizes the multiverse
 
@Andy Clockwork only affected the earth when reversing the time bomb, something is definitely up with it, but it should probably be discussed in another thread.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
My area said:
One last question
Why is Atomic X speed comparable to Alien X and Galactic Gladiator if he is not comparable to Alien X or Galactic Gladiator in strength according to the profile?
Click to expand...
Atomic-X needs to be scaled back to Alien X (after this revision is done obviously). There's literally no justification for Atomic-X being weaker. The downgrade is unjustified.
Click to expand...
Agreed there and all the best for the downgrade
 
@My area

There is justification for Atomic X being weaker. There are no statements or feats for comparable power to Alien X. The only feat is him stomping Vilgax. Previous justification was assumptions based on genetics. However, strong Celestialsapien chromosomes are being replaced with weaker Atomix ones in the Gene splicing. Absense of abilites/powers include Serena and Bellicus and Space-Time Manipulation. It is unknown how chromosome concentration plays into a Celestialsapien's power.

It is more accurate to say that Atomic X is comparable if not stronger than Atomix than it is to say that he is comparable to Alien X.
 
I dont think lack of Serena and Bellicis or space time manipulation makes him weaker than Alien x basically there is no reason for fusion to be weaker if not comparable to original aliens other than changing and removing of abilites and I dont think that removing abilites means he got weaker

And wasn't in Ben 10 2017 episodes where Ben fully masters Alien X and transforms into it without needing to argue where he manipulated enemies and controlled them so I guess Serena and Bellicis aren't there anymore so he could move like how Galactic Gladiator was freely moving
 
>There are no statements or feats for comparable power to Alien X

It's a fusion. It doesn't need to have statements of being stronger than Alien X as it being stronger is the default assumption until actual actual evidence says otherwise because of how fusions in general work.

>Previous justification was assumptions based on genetics. However, strong Celestialsapien chromosomes are being replaced with weaker Atomix ones in the Gene splicing. Absense of abilites/powers include Serena and Bellicus and Space-Time Manipulation. It is unknown how chromosome concentration plays into a Celestialsapien's power.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Attack Potency or strength. This is matter of hax abilities. And a character losing hax abilities =/= they become weaker in strength. I still don't understand why people continue to try and make this connection. This was addressed in the previous Alien X thread and nothings changed since.

Not to mention, your point here is still assuming that fusion aliens become weaker via gene splicing to fuse them together when literally nothing confirms this is the case at all for the Bionmitrix.
 
@My area

Ben: See? Like that. Let me borrow the keys for Alien X for a minute to save the universe and you guys just go on having fun disagreeing on everything. Agreed?

Based on his last conversation with Serena and Bellicus, Ben still has to ask for the keys every time he transforms into Alien X. When Rook talks about full control, he is referring to Ben already being given the keys.

@ProfessorKukui4Life

This isn't Dragon Ball fusion where the product is by default stronger than the sum of their parts. It's gene splicing. A Demi-God isn't by default stronger than his Godly Parent.
 
DragonicDoom said:
While that certainly is true, remember that its 1 occasion and its Omniverse, which has a lot of inconsistencies. By the same token I could say Alien X is extra-dimensional because the Contomelia call the barrier around Maltruant's Annihilaarg is extra dimensional, and Skuurd makes a sword out of Celestialsapien DNA which cuts through it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but its like the Naljian statement, a single occurence doesn't make it fact.
Click to expand...
Extra-dimensional =/= higher dimensional either. We take Extra-dimension as a grain of salt here since Extra-Dimensional does not strictly mean coming from a higher dimensional plane.

Extra-Dimensional ultimately means to just come from outside of the universe. Thats it. Extra-dimensional can be applied to literally anything that isn't within your universe and the term is already applied to beings here who are definitely not higher dimensional.
 
> It's a fusion. It doesn't need to have statements of being stronger than Alien X as it being stronger is the default assumption until actual actual evidence says otherwise because of how fusions in general work.


No, that's not how fusion in general work in Ben 10. Diamond Matter is obviosly not stronger than Diamond Head. Stink arms is also stated to be much weaker than 4 arms, but stronger than Stink fly. So why would fusing a weak alien like Atomix with Alien X somehow result in an alien stronger than Alien X? Even though the difference in strength between Alien X and Atomix is much bigger than in those aforementioned aliens?

Atomic X was beaten casually by Maltruent, Maltruent was one-shotted by the Anihilaargh, which Alien X tanked. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Atomic X isnt weaker than Alien X, when feats suggest he is. There is no evidence suggesting that a fused alien can be stronger than both of its sum. There is literally nothing suggesting Atomic X´> = Alien X.


> Not to mention, your point here is still assuming that fusion aliens become weaker via gene splicing to fuse them together when literally nothing confirms this is the case at all for the Bionmitrix.

There is also no evidence that proves that a fused alien can be stronger than both of its sum, however plenty of evidence of the opposite exists. There also isnt any eivdence suggesting that the Biomatrix fusion is different form the omnitrix, you literally have no proof of this only headcanon.
 
>No, that's not how fusion in general work in Ben 10. Diamond Matter is obviosly not stronger than Diamond Head. Stink arms is also stated to be much weaker than 4 arms, but stronger than Stink fly. So why would fusing a weak alien like Atomix with Alien X somehow result in an alien stronger than Alien X? Even though the difference in strength between Alien X and Atomix is much bigger than in those aforementioned aliens?

....I literally already addressed this. Like, 3 times now. So im only going to re-quote what I said before for you:

"False Equivalency. Fusions from the original series were made by a glitch in the original omnitrix by Ben removing the Omnitrix's casing.

The Biomnitrix's entire desig is to fuse Ben's aliens specifically, unlike the Omnitrix."

"It matters because you can't compare a fully-developed design to a malfunctioned glitch. It's literally not comparable in any way and trying to compare them is ridiculous and flawed. It's like comparing a machine that does something it's not built to do to another machine that does what it is designed to do. Especially since the original basic Omnitrix wasn't even designed for fusing aliens and could only explicitly do so when Ben played around with it's functioning (it's casing), which makes sense on why the fused aliens would be weaker than the individual original ones. The original omnitrix wasn't built for that

The Biomitrix is nothing like this in the slightest since it was entirely designed for this purpose."

>Atomic X was beaten casually by Maltruent, Maltruent was one-shotted by the Anihilaargh, which Alien X tanked.

Also already addressed this. So i'll re-quote:

"Yes. There isn't any evidence of Atomic X being weaker than Alien X besides getting harmed by Maltruent. Which is pure PIS since even without factoring in Alien X, Atomix scales above aliens that are much superior to Chronosapiens, like Way Big. And Chronosapiens in general are universally known to be a weak species. Atomix by itself is superior to anything Maltruent can achieve, so an even stronger fusion like Atomic-X getting harmed has justification of being succumbed to PIS."

>The burden of proof is on you to prove that Atomic X isnt weaker than Alien X, when feats suggest he is.

This isn't how Burden of Proof works. The Burden of Proof is actually on you to prove that the fusion isn't doing what it's supposed to do and would actually be weaker as that goes entirely against what the point of fusion in general is by default, which is to make characters stronger. To claim out of nowhere that a fusion doesn't make the product stronger equires evidence, and there isn't any of that besides PIS feats and complete headcanon false equivalancies.

>There also isnt any eivdence suggesting that the Biomatrix fusion is different form the omnitrix

.....Please tell me your kidding here. The Biomitrix is a specific version of the Omnitrix with the purpose of fusing aliens together. That already makes it different than the Omntrix, which doesn't do this.

>There is also no evidence that proves that a fused alien can be stronger than both of its sum, however plenty of evidence of the opposite exists.

See above. There isn't.

>Based on his last conversation with Serena and Bellicus, Ben still has to ask for the keys every time he transforms into Alien X.

If you're referring to what happened in Universe vs Tennyson, this is also false. Ben asking for them to give him control over Alien X while they argue about whether or not to save the dinosaurs already tells us that their definition of a "bit" is different than how we take it to be.

>This isn't Dragon Ball fusion where the product is by default stronger than the sum of their parts.

This isn't a dragon ball thing. Its a thing for fusions in general. Fusions are always assumed to make the product stronger than their sum parts, unless explicit evidence suggests otherwise. To assume it doesn't is to go against what the actual purpose of fusion is in general.
 
@Firestorm808 I dont know if I can post YouTube link here or not but if you search for Ben gaining full control over Alien X and you will find a 1 min and 59 seconds minute video where Ben instantly transforms into Alien X and is able to talk freely and also move freely while manipulating the movement and also using mind control in order to make then fight each other its a Ben 10 2017 episode where Bellicus and Serena aren't shown or refered at all
 
@Firestorm808

I dont think the conversation lasted 1 second only because moment he transform into Alien X he starts to make decisions and isn't statement from outside regarding Ben 10 verse not used?
 
This is actually supported by the show. When Ben first turns into Alien X Bellicus says that they've already had a conversation to explain the rules and gave Ben a break before reversing time around the damn. If Alien X wills it to, everything inside him happens in an instant. Alien X is often forced to stay motionless to everyone else because Bellicus and Serena don't like being used as a tool by Ben, so they force Alien X to not move.
 
....I literally already addressed this. Like, 3 times now. So im only going to re-quote what I said before for you:

Doesnt matter what the purpose of the Biominitrix is, when the outcome is the exact same. You can't presume the Biomnitrix works more effecient, just because it is intended to fuse aliens, unlike the Omnitrix. They do the exact same thing, only the Omnitrix does it via a glitch.And what feats does Atomix have that put him above Maltruent and Way Big?


>This isn't how Burden of Proof works. The Burden of Proof is actually on you to prove that the fusion isn't doing what it's supposed to do and would actually be weaker as that goes entirely against what the point of fusion in general is by default, which is to make characters stronger. To claim out of nowhere that a fusion doesn't make the product stronger equires evidence, and there isn't any of that besides PIS feats and complete headcanon false equivalancies.


Fusion by default isnt to make characters stronger, Ben 10 isnt Dragon Ball. This is nohting but pure headcanon. All the Biominitrix does is fuse aliens, so Ben can use several alien abilities simulanously. There is never any statement or implication that it makes them stronger.

" Out of nowhere", sure just ignore the 2 examples I just mentioned before. Assuming the Biomitrix works better than the Omnitrix, is " complete headcanon false equivalancies", when nothing in the show implies so. We have no proof of fusion making characters stronger, we have proof of fusion making characters weaker, but sure just ignore those as " PIS feats and complete headcanon false equivalancies"
 
@ Firestorm808 Oh I understand

@DragonicDoom not sure about everything inside him happening in instant but I guess yeah
 
Just been brushing up on my Alien X feats and statements, and I think there's an argument to be made that he shouldn't be harmed by Anur Vladias. In the same statement that says he can, its stated Ectonurites (Ghostfreak's species) can have their life energy absorbed as well. Here's the thing: Ghostfreak has been attacked by a character who can absorb life energy (Darkstar) and he says "Mana is life energy Mike. I'm a ghost, so I don't have any to absorb." Because the rule of the wiki is that the show takes priority (something I'm pretty sure a Ben 10 crew member has stated before) this would mean the statement is thrown out. Whether its the whole statement or just the Ectonurite part, I'm not sure.
 
Hmm good point or this just puts Anur Vladias' life force absorption above baseline (if that's even a thing). But I mean I don't think this statement matters that much because we don't give resistance to life force absorption for being infinitely stronger than someone anyways.
 
Fair enough. Also looking at some of the other statements I'm gonna go ahead and say that the one about Celestialsapiens being above dimensions is completely wrong, since there's ample evidence to suggest they are bound by dimensions, even within the same article.
 
>Doesnt matter what the purpose of the Biominitrix is, when the outcome is the exact same. You can't presume the Biomnitrix works more effecient, just because it is intended to fuse aliens, unlike the Omnitrix.

It very much so matters and I very much so can presume it. If a machine does something it is explicitly designed to do, it's product is going to be efficiently successful rather than a screw up from a machine that isn't built for that purpose and only does so by having it's functions screwed with. This is basic common sense and im still surprised that people are trying so desperately hard to make this connection stick.

The outcome isn't the "exact same" whatsoever. The Omnitrix wasn't built for fusing aliens together and could only fuse aliens together when having its functions messed with via glitches. The Biomitrix fuses aliens together through a fully-developed design with the purpose of fusing aliens together. WITHOUT relying on a malfunction to do the job.

A malfunctioned glitch vs a fully-developed design. I shouldn't have to explain for even one more second on how they are not remotely the same thing. At all.

>And what feats does Atomix have that put him above Maltruent and Way Big?

"Dwarf Star level (Defeated Ultimate Humungousaur and Ultimate Spidermonkey easily. Held his own against Malgax before eventually being defeated. Confirmed by WoG to be Ben's second most powerful transformation, which would make him more powerful than Way Big)"

Atomix's current justification for being High 5-A. While Maltruant is literally just 9-B......so...yeah.

>Fusion by default isnt to make characters stronger, Ben 10 isnt Dragon Ball.

Then it's a good thing this standard isnt just for Dragonball. Its a standard for fusion in general.

>All the Biominitrix does is fuse aliens, so Ben can use several alien abilities simulanously. There is never any statement or implication that it makes them stronger.

Just like there isn't any confirmation or remote implication that fusion in Ben 10 makes them weaker. Besides using a bullshit false equivalency like malfunctioned glitched fusions and magically applying them to all fusions in the verse like its some automatic standard when its never even remotely implied to be the case for all of them.

>" Out of nowhere", sure just ignore the 2 examples I just mentioned before.

I will ignore them because they are completely irrelevant and the logic behind them is crap. No offense.

>Assuming the Biomitrix works better than the Omnitrix, is " complete headcanon false equivalancies", when nothing in the show implies so.

Besides one being fully-developed and made with the purpose of fusing aliens together and the other only being able to fuse aliens through glitches in its functioning.

Which, through basic common sense, tells you that they aren't the same thing in any way, shape, or form. Unless a glitch is well made and efficient all of a sudden now.
 
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