About 2-B Alien X

[Firestorm808]

Statement's about the power of Celestialsapiens aren't a one-time thing and are consistant during the series' production. Scaling them to the Chrono Navigator is reasonable.

August 31, 2008 - X = Ben + 2

• Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.

October 10, 2010 - Map of Infinity

• Azmuth: If Aggregor can reassemble the map, he can travel to the forge of creation and gain the greatest power in the universe.

November 12, 2010 - The Forge of Creation

• Azmuth: Trivialities. While you did it about saving mere planets Aggregor obtained the means to travel to the forge of creation and obtain the greatest power in the universe!
• Azmuth: It could work. Alien X can do anything.
• Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
• Paradox: Aggregor intends to absorb the abilities of a newborn Celestialsapien. Should he succeed, he will become omnipotent.

October 27, 2012 - So Long, and Thanks for All the Smoothies

• Serena: Alien X can do many things. We just both have to agree to it.

January 19, 2013 - Ben Again

• If desired, the Chrono Navigator can "cause irreparable damage to the time-stream or destroy all of time and causality itself." "All of existence."

13th September 2013 - Q&A With Matt Wayne

• Q: If Serena and Bellicus agree, is Alien X omnipotent?
• A: In this universe.
  • As all Celestialsapiens are born in the Forge of Creation that is outside the branching timelines, he is referring to the Ben 10 verse as a whole.
• Q: 2. Like actually omnipotent? They can do ANYTHING they want if 2 out of 3 personalities agree?
• A: Yes, but usually they're deadlocked, one to one.

October 6, 2014 - And Then There Were None

• Chronosapien Time Bomb debut.

October 15, 2014 - Universe VS Tennyson

• Chadzmuth: I put it to you ladies and gentle aliens and not so gentle aliens, is it right to hold one scrawny little human responsible for the misdeeds of an entire species of omnipotent beings?

October 17, 2014 - Weapon XI: Part 2

• (Ben used Alien X in Part 1)
• Servantis: You think this omnipotent monster is the good guy?!
• Kevi: I know it. Ben's the greatest friend I ever had.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Madotsuki24 why dont you refute the arguments then? Powerscaling is used throughout Vs battles, we arent going to stop powerscaling characters just because it makes a character too strong. That's not a valid argument.

 

[My_area]

I wrote a medium length comment but it didn't get send so I will come back to this later and explain why scaling to chrono navigator is wrong

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay, im here now.

Statement's about the power of Celestialsapiens aren't a one-time thing and are consistant during the series' production. Scaling them to the Chrono Navigator is reasonable.

This is what my thread was originally addressing in the first place before it got massively derailed. These statements made for Celestialsapiens mean absolutely nothing without actual context as to what "greatest power" and "omnipotence" means. And my own OP addresses these statements in detail on every level.

Honestly, as Antvasima suggested, I am remaking this thread with my original points on why I disagree with 2-B Alien X. My thread has gotten massively derailed by topics that had absolutely nothing to do with it (particularly the points about Atomic-X and the time bomb) and they should have been left out entirely. Im going to remake this thread in a bit and provide a link to it to ONLY discuss the topic at hand. Anything that doesn't have to do with the thread needs to be left out or deleted in the replies.

 

[Madotsuki24]

Madotsuki24 why dont you refute the arguments then? Powerscaling is used throughout Vs battles, we arent going to stop powerscaling characters just because it makes a character too strong. That's not a valid argument.

Strawman alert. Yeah, you don't seem to be able to defend against my real argument so I've won against you I'm afraid.

 

[Greenshifter]

Come on guys cut it out, there are no winners and losers in an argument like this, this ain't a yt comment section, we're trying to determine what holds the most weight, not winning an argument cause it makes you feel better.

Also @Madotsuki I think I explained quite clearly why the Q&A statement is not used on my wall? If you want me to clarify you can just ask.

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsibscribe to this thread due to time constraints. You can send me a message later if you need my help after you reach a conclusion.

 

[Antvasima]

I would recommend starting a continuation thread soon though. You are almost out of available posts.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Ant Ok and Kukui will do so.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Madotsuki what strawman argument did I make? You didnt provide an actul argument, all you did was complain that scaling Alien X to 2-b weapon is scaling him too high, which is not a valid argument. The author statement you provided is irrelvant without statements from within the show backing it up.


@Professor why would we assument Omnipotence means something different in Ben 10 than what it does in other fictions? The word ominpotence is never applied literelly in any fiction, it's always as if a character is "omnipotent" within their own ficitonal verse. Or it's not applied in the first place of course.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Door Kukui means that omnipotent might be referring to hax instead of AP, like for instance a verse of normal humans and then some guy with a time stop that lasts 100 years and he can control what is time stopped and what is not and he doesn't age in his time stop comes in and destroys all armies in the world by activating all nukes in the world. That guy could be called omnipotent by some survivors even tho it has nothing to do with AP.

 

[Firestorm808]

In the case for Alien X, Matt stated and reiterated that he can do "ANYTHING," with his "Omnipotence." This would include whatever prior feats took place before his response in the series like the Chrono Navigator. Even after the Time Bomb, they are call omnipotent.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Firestorm that might be pushing it but I see where you are coming from, I do think we have a pretty good case with James Jaspers regarding Kukui's hax argument.

 

[Firestorm808]

If someone can snap their fingers and affect multiple universes with Reality Warping, I'm sure that's still Multiversal AP.

 

[My_area]

If they can only affect it specifically by reality wrapping then its 2C hax at best or if its more than 1000 universes then 2B hax at most

 

[Greenshifter]

But would that hax scale to AP is the question? And in Alien X/Chrono Navigator's case it would be destructive hax

 

[My_area]

I am not sure if it would interchangeable but for Chrono Navigator case it would scale to AP as its damaging timestream and causing the whole existence to go but for Alien X case or for celestialsapiens case their reality wrapping power has been stated as the strongest like wrapping universe and changing artstyles but it should be dealt with hax

I mean we treat Zeno erasure hax as AP and Super Shenron wish power as AP so I am not sure about how site deals with reality wrapping

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

IMO 2-B shouldn't have been applied in the first place. I support option 1.

 

[Firestorm808]

@ZephyrosOmega

2-B shouldn't be used because...?

In regards to Base Mario, he doesn't have consistant 2-B feats. Dreamy Bowser is a one-time feat. He needed to use the Pure hearts to defeat 2-B Super Dimentio. He also needed the Power Stars to defeat Low 2-C Grand Star Bowser.

As I stated above, Celestialsapiens are consistantly placed on top of the verse heiarchy by the source material and writers.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Greenshifter Alien x has been outright stated to be "able to do anything" by Azmuth, and Omnipotent by other characters. The Chrono Navigator works solely by hax, so even if they are only refering to hax, when they say he is Omnipotent, that doesnt mean he shouldnt scale to it.


Omnipotent doesnt solely mean AP in 99% of every other fictional verse where the word is applied, it means a character can do anything within the verse. One of the creator even said "Alien X can completely bend time and space to his will and have any power imaginable"...

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

In the case for Alien X, Matt stated and reiterated that he can do "ANYTHING," with his "Omnipotence." This would include whatever prior feats took place before his response in the series like the Chrono Navigator. Even after the Time Bomb, they are call omnipotent.

Except for stop the universe from being destroyed or save anyone from it happening, or even revive them afterwards

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

alien x not stopping the unvierse from being destroyed is a plothole, considering alien x' first feat is him reversing time. He could have done that and reversed the anihilaargh's destruction .

And he did revive them, kinda, he recreated everyone from nothing. which is the closest thing he could have done to revive them, as their was nothing left to revive.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

the point is if he was truly omnipotent, he could have revived them without needing to recreate them. he's strong, but not omnipotent.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

How exactly are you supposed to revive something that doesnt exist in the first place? And even if that was possible, it wouldnt make your point valid because If no other character in Ben 10 could revive them from nothingness, why would Alien X being omnipotent meant he could ? no fictional character is truly omnipotent, so if you want to apply the word "omnipotent" to a character, you cant demand that an omnipotent character can do more than what other characters from the same verse has shown.

Otherwise, the word omnipotent is meaningless, if your criteria for "omnipotence" is literally " able to do anything i can imagine", no character can literally do that. Every "omnipotent" character is limited in practially infinite ways.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

as in omnipotent within his universe

I.E. already throwing 2-B into question

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

what? no one in Ben 10 could revive them, this includes Alien X. Alien X can do anything anyone else in Ben 10 can do I.E he is omnipotent in Ben 10. He cant do something he hasnt shown or something no one else in Ben 10 hasnt shown. No one has shown the ability to revive the universe out of nothing, only recreate it, so why would you assume an omnipotent Ben 10 character could do so?

 

[Firestorm808]

@ZephyrosOmega

Except for stop the universe from being destroyed or save anyone from it happening, or even revive them afterwards.

Serena and Bellicus said that it was "too late." The Universe was already destroyed.

Ben: I know, right? I was too late to save the universe, so I used Alien X to make a whole new one.

You can't undo reality warping erasure with only Time Manipulation if there is nothing there to reverse back. Everything erased needed to be recreated.

the point is if he was truly omnipotent, he could have revived them without needing to recreate them. he's strong, but not omnipotent.

First off, we aren't talking about True Omnipotence.

You can't revive someone if someone is erased from existance with Reality Warping. That doesn't even fit the standards for Resurrection. Said someone needs to be recreated.

as in omnipotent within his universe

I.E. already throwing 2-B into questio

As we have stated earlier in the thread and the rest of the wiki, consistant and reliable "Omnipotence" is taken as the strongest in their respective verse, not Tier 0 by default. When the writers say he can do anything, we take it as being able to do any feat portrayed in the series.

Please see the Omnipotence page to see how we treat usage of the term.

 

[My_area]

Omnipotence shouldn't even be taken as strongest in the verse as all of the fiction uses the term literally so any dialogues having omnipotence should be discarded

 

[Firestorm808]

@My area

We have already spoken to the admins regarding the use of the term in this verse, and they have agreed with its usage for scaling. You may create another revision thread if you wish to change how the term should be used across the verses and the wiki for scaling.

 

[My_area]

@Firestorm808

Can you link me to the thread where admins agreed to usage of omnipotence in Ben 10 and its usage for scaling across the verses?

 

[Firestorm808]

@My area

In my previous upgrade thread, they agreed with the "greatest power" and "Omnipotence" Ben 10 statements I presented in scaling to the Chrono Navigator. They simply take it as the strongest power Paradox and the verse has ever seen.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3504047

How the term is used across other verses is a case by case basis.

 

[My_area]

@Firestorm808

I checked this thread and omnipotence and greatest power was being used interchangeably though nobody disagreed with it I still dont see the reason or understand why greatest power=omnipotence is being assumed here in Ben 10 verse

Oh I see

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@My area

Not only do characters in Ben 10/ WOG say Alien X has the greatest power in the universe, that he is omnipotent, they even go as far as saying that he can do anything and that he can bend time and space to his will and have any power imaginable.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Greenshifter Alien x has been outright stated to be "able to do anything" by Azmuth, and Omnipotent by other characters. The Chrono Navigator works solely by hax, so even if they are only refering to hax, when they say he is Omnipotent, that doesnt mean he shouldnt scale to it.


Omnipotent doesnt solely mean AP in 99% of every other fictional verse where the word is applied, it means a character can do anything within the verse. One of the creator even said "Alien X can completely bend time and space to his will and have any power imaginable"...

@Door agreed but Kukui thinks that Chrono Navigator works via AP and Celestialsapiens are only omnipotent when it comes to hax and not AP and thus they wouldn't scale, I personally do not agree with this tho since Chrono Navigator could work via hax + we have James Jaspers.

 

[My_area]

@Doorinmyhouse

Greatest power is the only statement which might be used and has some connection with Chrono navigator otherwise omnipotent literally in this context is being used as being able to do anything which is again very vague and doesn't explain or go into further depth about it as well as lacking context

Bending space and time at will is hax ability though and I dont think we use "have any power imaginable" and use abilites which Alien X or Celestialpaiens displayed

And I also seriously doubt that doing anything or omnipotent statement hold credibility when specially we have higher dimensions upto 26 dimensions confirmed by Naljins and Alien X nor any Celestialpaiens has shown to manipulate or change entirety of whole Ben 10 existence including higher dimensions

 

[My_area]

I also have plans for explaining the reason why scaling Alien X to Chrono navigator is wrong and go to detail with each and every single quote of Alien X Firestorm808 made but unfortunately I dont have much time and my mid terms exams are starting so maybe I will do it after 2 weeks or do it when Professor Kukui makes a new thread

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Greenshifter Destroying all of casuality is not possible through AP, destroying time is not possible with AP. And even if that was the case, since Alien X can have any power imaginable/ can do anything, why does it matter?


@My Area

How is being able to do anything vague?? How is "anything" vague in this context? Azmuth ,Paradox and others are implying there is no limit to Alien X' power. What additional context do you need exactly? Bending space and time is hax, so is destroying space and time which is what the Chrono Navigator was going to do, so not seeing how that's releveant.

Celestialsapiens have already shown they can manipulate the entirety of Ben 10 existance, the entire artwork changing 3 times was done by them, which affected the entirety of Ben 10 existance, including the Naljians.

And again, you are using the word omnipotent literally, which is not what I'm doing. im merely proposing that Alien X being omnipotent means he should scale to everything that has been shown in the series, and nothing more. It would not mean that he should be able to manipualte the entire series in literally any way imaginable like you are proposing, that's impossible to prove. ( And again, Celestialsapiens have already manipulated the 26 dimensions).

 

[DragonicDoom]

@Door Alien X CANNOT be omnipotent because of the following reasons:

1) He's fought another member of his species and won, which shouldn't be possible if they're both omnipotent.

2) Celestialsapiens are bound by dimensions, which we know based on a crew statement that describes the nature of a dimensional reboot "All beings are inside the experience, not outside it" which therefore includes Celestialsapiens as within some number of dimensions. Also, the Map of Infinity extends through 17 dimensions (whether that's 17 spatial dimensions or 16 spatial and 1 temporal isn't explained, though it shouldn't matter either way) and it can access the Forge of Creation, meaning its bound by dimensions and thus Celestialsapiens likely are as well.

Characters stating he can "do anything" and is "omnipotent" are not enough to justify that. Consider that Darkseid, Old King Thanos, even Buuhan have called themselves "omnipotent" and all of them are far from it. Think of it like this: Imagine a skyscraper that is so tall that even with the most powerful telescopes in the world we can't see where it ends. A lot of people would probably say it has no end but that doesn't mean it is. It could just be so tall that it's impossible for us to detect where it ends. Just because something seems infinite, doesn't mean it is.

Also please try not to use the Naljians as evidence, they've appeared in a single episode and only have that 1 statement to back them up. I find its far more likely the Ben 10 verse has 17 spatio-temporal dimensions rather than 26 because that comes from the mouth of Azmuth and is describing the Map of Infinity, a major item in an entire arc, hence its more likely to be accurate.

 

[Greenshifter]

@My Area we're scaling it to the greatest power statement tho, is the debunk also gonna be about the greatest power or all the other statement? I think the main debate rn is does hax scale to AP in this case?

 

[Greenshifter]

@Dragonic they're arguing that the skyscraper is so high that it has all the features of all the smaller skyscrapers, not that it's infinitely high. I doubt this would get accepted tho since we'd have to give Alien X resistance to life force absorption via scaling to Ghostfreak which we know is not the case and he'd have to be able to directly manipulate mana like Gwen which we know he can only do if he uses information manipulation.