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Ability Pages Revision - Abstract Manipulation Hax Standards

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PrinceofPein said:
Depends on the context. if you bring an end to a plot by destroying the universe the plot is happening, that is not plot manipulation.
But if you see the universe as a book or some metaphysical thing, and you erased the universe from that book, that is plot manipulation
Click to expand...
Then if it stated as, “even if something good or bad going in a story and still the character has the ability to destroy it” does it count?
 
Godsatoshi23 said:
Then if it stated as, “even if something good or bad going in a story and still the character has the ability to destroy it” does it count?
Click to expand...
I do not understand what you mean here tbh. "even if something good or bad is going on in a stry, the character can still destroy it" on its own gives nothing
 
PrinceofPein said:
I do not understand what you mean here tbh. "even if something good or bad is going on in a stry, the character can still destroy it" on its own gives nothing
Click to expand...
I mean, If a character can end all stories or tales even if the story is going in good or bad way because the story can be in both way but that won't matter if the story is only destroyed, so what ever the plot will be for the story it will cease to exist.
 
I fixed the link.

Also I think the case NHTKenshin is referencing was more like ending the progression of the narrative when it wasn’t supposed to end, rather than destroying it. And personally, I can’t really see how that wouldn’t count as plot manipulation.
 
Xearsay said:
Also I think the case NHTKenshin is referencing was more like ending the progression of the narrative when it wasn’t supposed to end, rather than destroying it. And personally, I can’t really see how that wouldn’t count as plot manipulation.
Click to expand...
I am simply acknowledging the fact that we consider destroying concepts as Conceptual Manipulation when we dont do the same for Plot Manipulation, because we consider Plot Manipulation only for manipulation over a Plot

Which doesn't make sense, considering both literally dont qualify for the Manipulation of Plots/Concepts, yet we dont give PM to Plot destroyers, but we do infact give CM to Concept destroyers.

Even right now, Alien X was recently given Casuality Manipulation for destroying Time/Causality. Even though Alien X didn't manipulate Causality, so again, why do we have these standards for Plot Manipulation when we dont have them for all of these other hax?
 
I don't see any reason why "manipulation" in "plot manipulation" and "concept manipulation" must be perfectly identical. I disagree with the change, I do not at all believe that plot manipulation is meant to describe something as vague and generic as "ending a story" which in practice is often just killing or destroying things in general, which -- inevitably -- ends the story. The fact that such destruction is described in terms of "ending a story" IMO very clearly doesn't fit what the plot manipulation ability is intended for, which is altering of a narrative like an author does.

So, put me down for disagree. If someone cannot willfully dictate a sequence of events like an author writing the story can, it isn't plot manipulation.
 
Xearsay said:
I fixed the link.

Also I think the case NHTKenshin is referencing was more like ending the progression of the narrative when it wasn’t supposed to end, rather than destroying it. And personally, I can’t really see how that wouldn’t count as plot manipulation.
Click to expand...
I can't seem to find the discussion regarding the profile's Plot Manipulation addition in our forums. It may have been added arbitrarily.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Miyama Kaito (Web Novel)

Miyama Kaito is the main protagonist of I Was Caught up in a Hero Summoning, but That World Is at Peace. He is one of 4 people, who were summoned to another world. Tier: 10-B, 10-A with Body Strengthening, 9-C with Nebula's Fruit, 9-B with Auto Counter, Low 1-C, Possibly 1-C with Eden, 1-A with...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Deagonx said:
I don't see any reason why "manipulation" in "plot manipulation" and "concept manipulation" must be perfectly identical. I disagree with the change, I do not at all believe that plot manipulation is meant to describe something as vague and generic as "ending a story" which in practice is often just killing or destroying things in general, which -- inevitably -- ends the story. The fact that such destruction is described in terms of "ending a story" IMO very clearly doesn't fit what the plot manipulation ability is intended for, which is altering of a narrative like an author does.

So, put me down for disagree. If someone cannot willfully dictate a sequence of events like an author writing the story can, it isn't plot manipulation.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the input. But this reasoning does not make sense, its completely built on subjectivity of thinking Manipulation shouldn't be the same for both, which is not what this wiki runs on.

Destroying a concept is not manipulating a concept, that is a fact, but we still give characters CM via destroying concepts when we dont do the same for Plot Manipulation. Disregarding the clear contradiction here because PM via destruction is too “vague" isnt really a solid reason.

Deagonx said:
I do not at all believe that plot manipulation is meant to describe something as vague and generic as "ending a story" which in practice is often just killing or destroying things in general
Click to expand...
You dont think so, because it is not manipulating a Plot, but again, refer to above, we literally dont care if you destroy causality or concept, you still will get Causality Manipulation/Conceptual Manipulation even though there isnt any Manipulation happening.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
its completely built on subjectivity of thinking Manipulation shouldn't be the same for both
Click to expand...
And your CRT is completely built on subjectivity of thinking it should be the same for both, which is a perfectly fine opinion for you to have, but I don't agree with it at all.
 
Firestorm808 said:
The site has its own definition of Plot Manipulation.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Plot Manipulation

Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

We don't use creating or destroying in our definition. Plot Manipulation is exclusively altering the plot.

@Antvasima @Deagonx

Can you help clarify the matter?
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Well, what you said is correct. A character has to be able to control the plot of a story in a similar manner to an author in order to qualify for this ability.

Should we close this thread?
 
Antvasima said:
Should we close this thread?
Click to expand...
I think so. This was basically made off the coattails of a rejected CRT to try and change the standards but the premise is fairly odd. Manipulation doesn't need to mean the same thing in every context.
 
Okay. I will do so then. Thank you to everybody who helped out here. 🙏
 
It is still in the heat of the conversation, why would we close it.

Piggybacking off of what Gilver said, in retrospect, destroying and creating plot inherently allows you to control/manipulate the plot in said fashion, so I see no reason why it can't be worded in a way where it can allow some flexibility.
 
What did DontTalk think that we should do here?
 
Antvasima said:
What did DontTalk think that we should do here?
Click to expand...
The prior replies:
DontTalkDT said:
Honestly, I don't think we have some standard by which erasing a plot (directly, via an ability and a proper plot that qualifies as such by plot manip standards) can not be listed as plot manip? One doesn't have to list it as such, EE to the plot level explains the ability just as well, but one could as far as I am concerned.
Click to expand...
DontTalkDT said:
As far as I am concerned, yes. I don't think we have any written rule against it nor do I remember a thread where we discussed that it shouldn't be done.

Of course, I'm not the sole authority on this or anything like that.
Click to expand...
At this time, admin staff will deliberate on modifying the current definition/standard.
 
Okay. Since DontTalk gave his approval, I am fine with destroying a plot to be listed as "Limited Plot Manipulation" if no other, more varied/versatile, plot-changing abilities can be used as well.
 
Reiner said:
He agrees with destroying plot to be listed as Plot manp.
Click to expand...
This is not a fair representation of what he said. He said he isn't aware of a rule against it, and said Existence Erasure at the plot level would explain the ability just as well, but it could go either way. Let's not pretend as though DT specifically supported the change, he was entirely neutral.

I think the Existence Erasure approach is better.
 
Deagonx said:
This is not a fair representation of what he said. He said he isn't aware of a rule against it, and said Existence Erasure at the plot level would explain the ability just as well, but it could go either way. Let's not pretend as though DT specifically supported the change, he was entirely neutral.

I think the Existence Erasure approach is better.
Click to expand...
Yeah, i'd say we tag other people
 
Deagonx said:
This is not a fair representation of what he said. He said he isn't aware of a rule against it, and said Existence Erasure at the plot level would explain the ability just as well, but it could go either way. Let's not pretend as though DT specifically supported the change, he was entirely neutral.

I think the Existence Erasure approach is better.
Click to expand...
DontTalkDT said:
As far as I am concerned, yes. I don't think we have any written rule against it nor do I remember a thread where we discussed that it shouldn't be done.

Of course, I'm not the sole authority on this or anything like that.
Click to expand...
I can't interpret it as anything but support and "yes" but just that she is saying that "my decision is not absolute" which is fine, if you want other ppls opinion.
 
Yeah, in my book "x Manipulation" powers always cover "x creation" and "x erasure" as subpowers (although if it extedns to just that it's probably limited).
At least it was my impression that's how we handled things.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Yeah, in my book "x Manipulation" powers always cover "x creation" and "x erasure" as subpowers (although if it extedns to just that it's probably limited).
At least it was my impression that's how we handled things.
Click to expand...
Thank you for clarifying.

I think the issue where it concerns plot manipulation is that unless it is clearly portrayed in the context of author powers, rather than generic destruction, the phrase plot manipulation ends up being rather inconsistent with what the power is intended to represent.

Specifically in the case of Mandrakk, him "ending stories" is just destroying the multiverse.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Well, as established in prior thread on plot manip, one should be fairly careful what one considers literal plot stuff and what is plot as a metaphor.
Click to expand...
Of course.
But for now, can creating, altering and destroying whatever qualfies as a plot be considered Plot Manipulation?

How many people agree with that as of now?
 
Well, "Limited Plot Manipulation" when entirely on its own, if this revision is accepted.
 
I think so, yes. If that is the only thing a character can do in this area.
 
So alright then, full out “X Manipulation" to characters who have shown the full capability to manipulate “X" and “limited X Manipulation" to characters capable of destroying “X”?

Seems fine by me.
 
Yes, that is the way that I think seems most accurate.
 
I feel it quite asinine personally to attribute the properties of plot to other metaphysical elements. Destroying plot is often times quite literally just a feat of power as well as the ability to interact with that level of the setting as opposed to say, deleting the concept of light from the universe.

All in all, I'd rather not extend this quirk of Plot Manipulation to everything else. I'll see what others think.
 
Planck69 said:
I feel it quite asinine personally to attribute the properties of plot to other metaphysical elements. Destroying plot is often times quite literally just a feat of power as well as the ability to interact with that level of the setting as opposed to say, deleting the concept of light from the universe.

All in all, I'd rather not extend this quirk of Plot Manipulation to everything else. I'll see what others think.
Click to expand...
Wrong part brother, these are the ones you want to tackle.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/abili...anipulation-hax-standards.150532/post-5572370
https://vsbattles.com/threads/abili...anipulation-hax-standards.150532/post-5572371
https://vsbattles.com/threads/abili...anipulation-hax-standards.150532/post-5572376
https://vsbattles.com/threads/abili...anipulation-hax-standards.150532/post-5572385
https://vsbattles.com/threads/abili...anipulation-hax-standards.150532/post-5572399
 
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