A possible Downgrade to Mega Man and those who scale to him.

[Neosonic97]

You guys may remember the last time I brought this subject up and got shot down. So I went back and I took a look again, and, looking again, some of the calcs listed on here that place Mega Man at Planet-level are a bit deceptive. There are three in total, so I'll go into each respectively and list my problems with each calc.

Firstly...

Sunstar

This one is a bit misleading. With his death throes, Sunstar blew up the Wily Star and generated Planet-level energy. The question is where he gets the planet-level that Mega Man and Duo get, aside from that, and even then, Proto himself stated that Mega Man Classic DOES NOT scale to Sunstar, given that A: he didn't tank the attack that vaporized the Wily Star and B: Sunstar wasn't actively releasing that much energy during the fight with Mega Man. That energy was only being generated when Sunstar's fusion reactor begun to go haywire. This was the build-up to the explosion that levelled the Wily Star, and unlikely to scale to Mega Man for the same reason that the explosion isn't something we can scale Mega Man to. It's not something he can actually use of his own will (Again the reason Sunstar exploded as he did is because his Fusion reactor was damaged, not a conscious decision of his own- in fact, Mega Man explicitly wanted to spare Sunstar, but by this point the damage had already been done). Mega Man never actually went up against the energy the calc implies. Sunstar had already told Mega Man to run away when the shaking started.


secondly...

Duo and the Evil Energy

This was the one I tried to address in the previous post, but let's go over it again. The calc assumes that mass was displaced, but there's a key problem. Duo and the Evil Energy fought above Jupiter, a Gas Giant. This means that there are only three possible pieces of mass that could have been displaced when Duo and the Evil Energy clashed- The molten core of the planet (Impossible as Jupiter would've been destroyed then), the inner metallic hydrogen (Unlikely, given the altitudes they clashed at, and even if the matter was displaced, the increase in temperature caused by the explosion of the clash would most likely revert the hydrogen to a liquid or gaseous state), or most likely, pieces of metal from Duo and the Evil Energy-possessed robot themselves, superheated by the explosion. This is the most likely interpretation to be correct seeing as when Duo is found at the beginning of Mega Man 8 by Dr. Light and Mega Man, he is out of commission, implying that he took enough damage from the battle to be taken down, and this is why Dr. Light has to repair Duo. The sparks flying out were likely pieces of metal flying off of Duo and the Robot, superheated due to the high speed of their clash.


And lastly...

Wily's Skull Satellites

Wily's statement isn't very reliable. Dr. Wily claims it would reduce the earth to ashes, but then wishes to use it to simply kill everyone but himself. So therein lies an issue: How would Wily use a laser which, at 1% power, would reduce the planet to ash, and only kill his intended targets and not, well, destroy the planet? Chances are, it was merely hyperbole. Remember that Dr. Wily only wishes to take over the world, not destroy it. Chances are that what Dr. Wily meant is that it would be able to put an end to life as everyone knew it, and just aggrandized his statement POSSIBLY Surface-wiping, a lot like Boros' statement that he could do the same, but not planet-level. Another problem is that Proto makes this statement: "nothing he created could have been as powerful as Duo or Sunstar.". This ignores the existence of Zero, a creation of Wily's that is much more powerful than any Stardroid or even Classic Mega Man himself, so automatically placing the cast at Multi-planet level scaling them to this simply because Wily made it is just plain stupid. Especially given how THIS line of logic essentially implies that Classic Mega Man is in fact more powerful than Mega Man X, by implying that Zero, who is X's equal, is weaker than any Stardroid who, according to Proto, scales to Classic Mega Man. It results in a HUGE inconsistency with canon details like the fact that X is undeniably stronger than Classic. We just can't use it.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

As for Sunstar.

Do you have any proof that his other attacks just aren't as strong? If anything, the Small Planet feat was done rather casually. Not to mention done while Sunstar was injured. I think what Proto meant when he said it doesn't scale, was that the Small Star feat doesn't scale.

As for the Evil Energy calc.

The high end assumes the pieces were sent flying. The low end (which is what we're using) is simply calculating the damage output to cause such a crater. The game seems to count Jupiter as a solid, rock planet since due to how the crater was formed, so the calculation does too. Although, I'm not sure if you can use Pulverization for the crater since large chunks were sent flying.

Fragmentatio

5.67044072e28 * 6 = 3.4022644e+29 Joules [81 Exatons. Moon level]

Violent Fragmentatio

5.67044072e28 * 69 5.4436231e+30 Joules [935 Exatons. Small Planet level]

So, I don't agree with the downgrades.

 

[Neosonic97]

The crater was formed on Earth where Duo crashed, not on Jupiter. The visual effect we see in the opening cutscene before the first level is an explosive clash between Duo and the Possessed Robot. It's an explosion ABOVE Jupiter- not a crater ON Jupiter, hence the different coloration from the rest of Jupiter. In the cutscene Jupiter is shown to be dark red, and the special effect is prominently white and bright orange. The former isn't prevalent amongst Jupiter's colours and the latter just isn't one of Jupiter's colours, full stop. It simply makes more sense to assume that it was pieces of metal being torn from the two robots and superheated by the explosion, rather than debris thrown up from the planet, especially given the state that the possessed robot and Duo were in afterwards (The possessed robot was destroyed and Duo was left unconscious until repaired by Dr. Light).

As for Sunstar, because the Small Planet 'feat' is just a build-up TO the latter- they're the SAME DAMN THING. Sunstar didn't conciously decide to explode and level the Wily Star- it happened because his Fusion Reactor was damaged- and it started with the shaking, which was what the first calc was about. The shaking lead up to the explosion. What Proto did there was take two stages of the same event and try to calc them as different things.

You say it's casual because he was injured but here's a bit of context: The damage to the fusion reactor is what caused the shaking and subsequently the explosion. What happened here was akin to something like a nuclear meltdown, if you understand the analogy; Sunstar's reactor was damaged, became unstable and eventually sent himself and the entire Wily Star up in flames. The shaking was just a sign that detonation was imminent.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Neosonic

If anything, that just makes the feat more impressive for ejecting that much matter from Jupiter despite not being physically on top of it. No, it's not from the robots since Jupiter has visible discoloration from when they impacted. Thus it's illogical to think that such as massive explosion and ejection of matter could have just been those two robots colliding.

Sunstar's Fusion Reactor is the source of all of his powers. It's illogical to think that he'd be that much weaker while dying and damaged than he would be in peak form.

As for the Satellite Lasers, it still stands to reason that Mega would be more powerful than them because:

1) Zero was created well after this point in the series, upon which Wily and Light's robots would have been feuding for decades. Plus, Wily's bots are generally tweaked and militarized versions of Light's designs or stolen off other scientists.

2) Mega has repeatedly defeated all of Wily's Robot Master's with the exception of Bass, placing him well above them.

We've been through this before time and again and you're just being persistent for nothing.

 

[Dark649]

I don't agree with the downgrades as well.

 

[Neosonic97]

The matter WASN'T ejected from Jupiter. That's what I'm trying to get across. It was superheated metal torn straight from the robots themselves, through the damage they took from clashing. Occam's Razor dictates this as the simplest solution. The 'discoloration' was an explosio caused by the two robots clashing- NOT a crater formed on Jupiter. Note how it obscures the ring around Jupiter, which clearly extends above the atmosphere. Bare minimum 16,000km away from the surface of the planet if the ring is anything like Saturn's D-Ring (The closeset ring to the planet, mind you). This proves that the explosion is FAR from ground level. The explosion itself isn't enough to warrant Planet-level either. It at best reaches Multi-continent.

We have cause for the material being ejected from the robots: They just took heavy damage from the clash, enough to put Duo out of comission, thus he needed repairs from Dr. Light. We have cause for the material being superheated: The explosion caused by the Robot and Duo clashing. I don't see how this doesn't make sense. Hell, it makes more sense, given the visuals of the cutscene, than Duo and the possessed robot somehow creating a massive shockwave and creating a suspiciously explosion-like discoloration on the surface of jupiter which somehow displaces matter even further away than the explosion itself. It's simply Occam's Razor talking here.

Sunstar's explosion is the result ALL of the Fusion Reactor's energy escaping at once in a very violent explosion, similar to how the Aurum Core exploded in Kid Icarus Uprising (Hence why I do not buy Pit being higher than Mountain-level). And the shaking is a sign that Sunstar was, well, about to blow. Hence why he told Mega Man to run away. Basically, think of it as a nuclear reactor during a meltdown, and you're not far off from what happened to Sunstar. Or for a closer analogy in terms of how it goes, it's like what happens when one of the Terminator's Hydrogen Fuel Cells gets ruptured. In short, IF Sunstar were to use up all the power he had in a single attack, then yes, he could rival that explosion. But he did NOT do this against Mega Man, because it would result in him running out of power. You say that he should be able to equal it because he's injured but THE INJURY IS WHAT CAUSED THE FEAT TO EVEN HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE. Sunstar flat-out states that he's going to explode because his fusion reactor was damaged [before the shaking starts], even after Mega Man asks him to surrender so he can be repaired and repurposed, and Sunstar tells Mega Man to flee because of this. The 'shaking' feat which places Sunstar at planet-level is part of the same 'suicide attack' that places him at large planet. It's just an earlier stage of it.

Mega Man has only been proven to be superior to the Robot Masters (None of whom really have that many good feats in the first place), and Wily's other miscellaneous inventions HAVE been proven to get the better of him, to say nothing about the varying quality of Wily's inventions (You can't SERIOUSLY think that Wily's Skull Satellites=Sheep Man, can you?) Remember the Roboenza? Roll had to give her dose of the Roboenza medicine to Mega Man. And again, Wily's statement regarding the Skull Satellites is quite obviously hyperbole, given he was planning to use it on the planet to life-wipe. It's a VERY similar case to the inconsistencies regarding one Lord Boros. Highly doubtful that it's planet-level. Very probably Island at least (Life-wiper after all), possibly Multi-continent (assuming Surface-wiper).

 

[Reppuzan]

@Neosonic

Then can you explain the reason for the massive discoloration of Jupiter? If no matter was expelled from Jupiter at all, it would have remained the same color, but it clearly hasn't.

Let's put it this way. Even if Sunstar used 0.000001% of his reactor's overloaded output during his fight with Mega Man, it would still be Planet level. Furthermore, you're using an example from another series that has been accepted by members of the calc group. Which further casts doubt on your claim.

I really doubt it's hyperbole, given that we have Robot Masters and Stardroids that can break the laws of thermodynamics, manipulate space and time, create and control black holes, and freeze entire oceans with ease. Heck, the civilia robots of unnamed scientists are able to freeze time casually. Given all of these attributes, is it really that farfetched that he can reduce the world to ash? Mega Man has beaten every single one of them in rapid succession in order to stop Wily's plans.

 

[Dark649]

I'm sorry but the Megaman verse (They are that high because of that well done calc and because they are obliviously not than much weaker than Megaman X characters) and the Kid Icarus verse (Pit is also comparable to Dark Pit, which he damaged Hades) and the OPM verse will not get downgraded.

 

[Cropfist]

thread validity aside, what would the proposed downgrades be to?

 

[Neosonic97]

My proposed downgrade would be down to Multi-continent at best, Island at worst, depending on the take.


The 'discoloration of Jupiter' was more an explosion covering the view of what's actually there, not changing the colour of jupiter itself. It also obscures the ring around Jupiter (As there is one). In fact, looking closely at the scene in question, you can actually vaguely see what's under the explosion and it doesn't look damaged at all (Some parts are transparent enough that you can see through).


The issue with a lot of the Robot Master's powers is that they have very clear limits- a fast enough foe can move during Flash Man's time stop (As he learned the hard way in the Archie Comics [the mechanics behind the weapon should be the same even if it's a different version of the character]), Galaxy Man's Black Hole can be sealed in concrete and Saturn's can be stopped by an electric shock, Time Man's Time slow is only, well, slowing time. As for Centaur Man, pretty sure he only gained the ability to do that AFTER being modified for combat (He was previously a museum tour guide). I'm also gonna need a scan for Freeze Man freezing the entire ocean. I'm... also iffy on whether Gigamix is canon.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Neosonic

This is talking about canon Mega Man and his manga counterpart, not Archie. Besides, Archie Sonic is an embodiment of chaos that affects the fabric of space, time, and fate with his existence, he's hardly a good example.

In canon Mega Man, these time manipulation powers cannot be stopped in any way. All of the Special Weapons in the series are inherent to each robot. For example, The original six Robot Masters' Special Weapons were all inherent to them despite being industrial robots. The same can be said for Centaur Man.

Furthermore, as Vivi told you a LONG time ago. The only reason why that works is because of the fact that the Concrete Shot is a transmutation weapon that leaves no trace of the original target.

Stop downplaying. You're becoming exceedingly irritating.

 

[Cropfist]

A true black hole can't be transmuted though.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Cropfist

Dr. Light regularly creates robots that break the laws of thermodynamics in half by functioning. This is hardly that much different.

 

[Cropfist]

Is Concrete Man one of those robots?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Cropfist

Cold Ma can reduce things to Absolute Zero to preserve dinosaur DNA and fossils while stopping any matter from breaking apart due to the loss of atomic energy. He's another civilian model.

Concrete Man was built around the same time and can convert anything into concrete.

Simply put, physics simply don't mean much to Robot Masters unless it's for drama.

 

[Cropfist]

If it was actually absolute zero the DNA would collapse at the atomic level.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Cropfist

That's my point. Given that he actually does his job right and it's explicitly stated to be Absolute Zero, it stands to reason that Robot Masters are regularly able to screw with the laws of physics with their abilities.

Freeze Man can also split temperature into hot and cold at will to power himself and flash freeze things.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Reppuzan makes sense.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I Agree with reppuzan

 

[Antvasima]

So, should we close this thread?