A lazy man and his gigantic text (Guardian Downgrade and Additions)

[Archaron]

Wok, proxies? He itself is the mind of the vexs within the IF, and the IF itself, osiris quote this.

 

[CNBA3]

I believe that any regualr axis mind should scale to the Guardians atleast with Star Level durability/AP, if outside the Vex realm.

 

[Wokistan]

Proxies as in the daemons that directly administrate each realm. If panoptes was 2-A there it shouldn't have an Osiris problem, nor should there be timelines for the Guardian to escape to when Panoptes deletes onme.

 

[Archaron]

Panoptes 2-A will be scaled only to him, and to the other two axis minds, he will also get a "likely higher" for having destroyed the largest entities in the future without the PC, the sky and the deep are the largest entities, I probably believe 1-C, I do not know.

 

[Archaron]

Proxies as in the daemons that directly administrate each realm. If panoptes was 2-A there it shouldn't have an Osiris problem, nor should there be timelines for the Guardian to escape to when Panoptes deletes onme.

Osiris modified the IF system, so that does not make sense, and also, the forest is always changing and expanding, he is constantly changing the forest, and the guardian only ran away the first time because of Osiris, besides he is in constant change of realities as well.

 

[Wokistan]

High 2-A's the next dimensional step up from 4-D, though the ascendant plane may be 5-D which would give Oryx and his daughters 5-D hax. That's gonna be settled with Oryx though.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

Has the Panoptes situation been resolved? What more needs to happen to move forwards? We've kind of been going in circles about this since the thread started.

 

[Wokistan]

not yet with Panoptes itself, though 2-A or not the PC guardian definitely wouldn't scale.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

@Wokistan I agree completely with you on that. I think the consensus is that the 2-A would only scale to specific Axis Minds. It's not going to the Guardians or anyone else comparable to them.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

@Galaxian So, this is something I've seen and something I have a major issue with. Oryx at his strongest is low 2-C, possibly higher. But the Vex Minds are 2-A. It's been explicitly stated that the way the Vex became so strong was that they mimicked the Hive's Sword Logic and Worship of Worms . It's also been stated that Oryx took Quira, Blade Transform and gifted her to Savuthu , who is arguably the strongest Vex Mind being the one who helped the Vex battle the Hive in the Ascendent Realm. It was also shown during their fight, Quira attempted to comprehend Oryx nature and power, and couldn't even do that. The best that Quira could do was simulate Aurash, the previous incarnate of Oryx. My proposition is that both Oryx and the Guardian are adjusted to "at least 2-A, possibly higher," since it was seen that the Vex Minds couldn't comprehend or even rival Oryx power and the Guardian scales to Oryx for obvious reasons, that'd be defeating him, and Xol, another Worm God, though Xol was weaker than Oryx, the two would at least be comparable.

 

[Wokistan]

Oryx's scaling is reliant on the Vex and as azzy doesn't like 2-A panoptes he asked me to remove that while the revisions go on. The Panoptes file was created by not me after the stagnation of the Oryx revisions. As such, the scaling is a bit disjointed as of now, but Oryx scales to Vex via the Vex not finding any futures where they win over him.

 

[CNBA3]

Actually thinking about it, questions.

1. Would Osiris scale to normal MC guardians who defeated Oryx?

2. and what would the Universal level character be if gone through a multiplier? Would that person still be Universe level or multiverse level

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Oryx, The Guardian(s), Riven, Xol, The Awoken, The Worm Gods, The Scorned, and The Taken all scale above the Vex due to the Vex being unable to replicate them , more specifically, The Vex can't replicate Light or Darkness.

 

[Wokistan]

Osiris should scale to PC Guardians, and probably is superior.

What does this refer to?

 

[Wokistan]

Well not really. That's not the reason for Oryx's scaling, it was that there were 0 futures out of infinite where they foresaw themselves not being destroyed once Oryx started attacking. Hell he crippled the VOG by taking one mind. I don't remember the Awoken having any super powerful individuals besides the Techuens, Riven, and maybe the queen though.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

I highly disagree with Osiris being superior, we don't have much context of how powerful he is, we've seen him fight against Ponoptes and that's it. So he should scale to Ponoptes, not the Guardians

 

[Penguinkingpin]

@Wokistan. Uldren, he did kill Cayde.

 

[CNBA3]

With question two is regarding his combat against Panoptes, or at least his reflects did and way or simplifying the scaling at least

 

[Wokistan]

Fighting Panoptes would make him superior though. The Guardian was kinda ****** until Osiris showed up and helped them out. He's also one of the most legendary Guardian figures and had to have survived the Cabal taking the light somehow.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

I don't understand how a being capable of overseeing and controlling infinite realities isn't classified as 2-A. These realities are established as timelines and no different from reality. They even affect beings from outside of the reality it controls, such as the Guardians. The fact that it uses proxies seems more like a nitpick than anything else since it is higher in authority than those proxies and can control them anyways.

 

[Wokistan]

Because he only does stuff to it one universe at a time or something, you can ask azathoth as he was the one who was really vehemently against it

 

[CNBA3]

That is why I am asking what would it mean for a universal level character to get an upgrade, would that mean a universal character be multiversal otherwise or am I overthinking it? Because we see multiple copies of himself coming together where what was stopping Panoptes from deleting the guardian

 

[Wokistan]

I don't really know what to make of that but I don't think we use multipliers like that in tier 2? Someone's like 10,000x baseline low 2-C or something strange.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

@Wokistan If you are referring to his comment on this thread, he was speaking to the concept of 2-A Gaurdians. He said nothing in regards to the 2-A rating of Panoptes or anyone else.

If there is another reference you are referring to, I can ask him about where it was stated because I can't find it anywhere.

 

[Wokistan]

No he also disagreed with 2-A panoptes even assuming that we use Vex space feats, I don't remember why. He said he was gonna look through developments in the recent thread and I guess remake a really large megathread though, so looks like we can finally get some shit done in a bit.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Issue is, how would the Guardian(s) struggle against Penoptes, a Vex Mind, who are inferior to the Hive Worm Gods, when the Guardian(s) defeated Worm Gods such as Crota and Oryx, they even defeated Atheon before fighting Penoptes. I think the Guardian struggling against Penoptes is a case of PIS since if scaled correctly, it would've been extremely easy for the Guardians to defeat Penoptes.

 

[Wokistan]

Guardians really shouldn't scale to Ascendant Oryx, and Xol may be an outlier for Xol. I don't really get where Xol being superior to Vex comes from though, just because it's not comprehensible. It helps emphasize the superiority of Oryx, but without the other thing it would be meaningless.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Why shouldn't the Guardians scale to Ascendent Oryx? They ascended to his realm, and defeated him in his throne room, like they did with Crota.

 

[Wokistan]

They beat him by using his own power to harm him, and through extensive prep to cripple him before the fight even began. Even when you reach him he's still immune to everything you do.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

It's also possible that the Guardian from the two games isn't the same entity and each game will have a different protagonist which will have their own feats and tier to scale to.

@Wokistan I should hope that it gets addressed soon, as I feel there should be more discussion on the matter. However, if that's the case then the main task of this thread which was getting the Guardian straight has been accomplished. As long as the tier ratings for the profiles are changed accordingly, we can await the next large revision thread.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

A quote from grimoire says otherwise. The Guardian(s) are explicitly told by Oryx, "You are a God now."

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah, but they also explicitly don't take up the mantle of the Taken King. Toland kinda flips out due to it, I think it's calcified fragment insight.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Yes they don't become the Taken King, but that doesn't mean they don't retain the power they earned through Sword Logic. In fact, it would make less sense if they didn't retain the power, since that's how Sword Logic works. The way Oryx became so powerful was by killing Akka, A Hive Worm God.

 

[Wokistan]

It's probably another thing of "disconnect between lore and gameplay", since guardians being as strong as ascendant Oryx then not annihilating the Cabal incursion before the Cabal cut them off makes no sense.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Once more, PIS.

 

[CNBA3]

Guardians were technically only that strong in the ascendent realm because they followed the sword logic. And as for the cabal threat, the drifter mentioned you had the Mythoclast and yet the cabal managed to take over the city, now the mythoclast was said to rewrite fate.

Vex considered the cabal a minor irritation.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Another addition to the PIS machine, how were the SIVA infected fallen able to fight the Post-Ascension Guardians? Just PIS.

 

[Wokistan]

If Guardians had their own throne worlds then yeah they'd be whatever Oryx ends up being there, but Ascendant Oryx is still "limited" to his ascendant realm even if he can just expand it into reality.

 

[CNBA3]

Another addition to the PIS machine, how were the SIVA infected fallen able to fight the Post-Ascension Guardians? Just PIS.

Again, They are only that strong in the ascendant realm

 

[Wokistan]

SIVA's golden age tech, and we killed hive gods with inferior tech, so...