A lazy man and his gigantic text (Guardian Downgrade and Additions)

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That's interesting considering i've been repeatedly told by members and some staff that "word of god" means nothing here and is ignored..

Regardless of that,I'm not seeing how Ghaul is superior in any way at all,he doesn't even have any supernatural abilities but pure military might and quite the weaponry,but none that I could think of that would even harm/kill Oryx honestly.

 

[Archaron]

@wok

Does not make sense by a dubious classification when one has a direct achievement that is to defeat the warpriest. The lore of D1 make explicit that it is solo, same thing in destiny 2 with riven, callus and etc.

Again where that is cause for him to get weaker, he got his light back on everything, it does not make sense and I do not see why he gets weaker.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

@Wokistan Go for it. I'll take care of the Vex.

 

[Wokistan]

Having no tier 4 feats after the fact

As for Ghaul, I guess he can be physically stronger than an Echo of Oryx or something. Probably a disconnect between lore writers and game writers.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

I thought the point was that after you touched the Shard of the Traveller and recovered your Light that you had regained your powers, at least as far as The Light is concerned. Besides the lack of Tier 4 feats in Destiny 2, I'm not sure why it should be assumed that they are far weaker.

 

[Wokistan]

D2 riven explicitly said that a team of 6 guardians went and killed Riven, which messed up the dreaming city

D1 describes Eris's fireteam of 6 Guardians going to to try to kill crota

The Books of Sorrow not saying "the 6 of you" is not proof of solo raids. More than one person can read it, and Oryx intended for that to be to whoever happened to kill him.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Likely a disconnect indeed.

 

[Wokistan]

They're not going below 5-C in D2, and I can probably get D2 4-B soon, but scaling to Riven who is fileless and still needs to be analyzed is not very good.

 

[CNBA3]

That is funny because a while back (and still stated) Doctor strange Ap scaling is based on the word of god as the directors stated that Ultron was not even a threat to the sorcerers. With a link to it. Ghaul had even martial arts training, and even Cabal elite prior to the Red Legion were capable of fighting guardians as well.

 

[Wokistan]

I mean that'd at least be kinda consistent. Just about anyone who's not a warmind or the Darkness itself being stronger than Oryx without justification is really weird, what with his hax and how he's easily got the best feats in the verse.

 

[CNBA3]

Oh, while you are at it, add Massively FTL+ for the Guardian as they can react and/tag Oryx who scales to his Echoes that are fast enough to move from mars to the deadnaught in a few seconds

 

[Wokistan]

Got the link?

 

[Wokistan]

Guardian speed was going to just be unknown right now, due to controversy around stuff like Infinite and Immeasurable. Speed equal affects most matches anyways lol

 

[Archaron]

D2 riven explicitly said that a team of 6 guardians went and killed Riven, which messed up the dreaming city

D1 describes Eris's fireteam of 6 Guardians going to to try to kill crota

The Books of Sorrow not saying "the 6 of you" is not proof of solo raids. More than one person can read it, and Oryx intended for that to be to whoever happened to kill him.

In dialogues with riven, he makes it explicit that he refers to only one person when he dialogs during the raid. I do not remember this, can you show me the eris talking about? Callus also during the raid speaks only about one and not more. Toland makes explicit that a guardian killed oryx and not 6,

and you're distorting something, oryx is an interpretive case since the sword logic does not have to kill directly but rather be involved as the hiraks.

 

[CNBA3]

Well that is the thing, it was never stated that they were weakened after having their light restored, they just lost their armory.

Got the link?

and after checking, for Oryx he should at least scale to Massively FLT from Phobos to the Dreadnaught, as what his Echo did was not teleportation, his teleportation takes more time and is much more luminous with taken light. which checking from different both the cinematic and from the boss battle which is labled rapid movement is much more suddle and less flashy.

here are links for rapid-movement and teleportation

 

[Archaron]

I thought the point was that after you touched the Shard of the Traveller and recovered your Light that you had regained your powers, at least as far as The Light is concerned. Besides the lack of Tier 4 feats in Destiny 2, I'm not sure why it should be assumed that they are far weaker.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Wokistan]

Eris was part of the fireteam that tried to kill crota that got everyone but her and Toland killed and Toland stuck in the Ascendant Realm.

Not true with the Riven thing actually. Remember that everyone can hear everyone at once due to comm systems. Don't need to constantly address people with multiple pronouns. Upon going to the Dreaming City petra herself talks about how 6 guardians went and killed Riven as well.

 

[Archaron]

Eris was part of the fireteam that tried to kill crota that got everyone but her and Toland killed and Toland stuck in the Ascendant Realm.

Not true with the Riven thing actually. Remember that everyone can hear everyone at once due to comm systems. Don't need to constantly address people with multiple pronouns. Upon going to the Dreaming City petra herself talks about how 6 guardians went and killed Riven as well.

Ah! speaks of the eris team, but I speak of the guardian alone against crota in his oversoul throne. Its logic of applying more guardians is flawed, since the beginning of the forsaken, none guardian out PC goes to war, even in the raid in history is just one against riven.

 

[Archaron]

Soooo...

My AP Guardian, which seems more consistent for me, since I will only bring facts.

AP:Varies, at least 5-C, at most 4-B (He killed in one against one, the warpriest who had a direct role in the defeat of taishibeth empire; defeated oryx someone who is superior to the warpriest together of Malok who is possibly the same tier), I have no objections to the "possibly far higher" (which should be low 2-C, but apparently the best tier is always the smallest one with which the staff is most contented, kek).

Why "at most 4-B"? There is no reason for a "likely", warpriest defeated directly next to oryx the taishibeth, so the guardian is scaled to them since they are the largest entity that he defeated in one against one and not with a context.

 

[Wokistan]

You need to prove that raids actually don't work how they've always worked for that. Having an at most 4-B with a possibly far higher also doesn't really make sense.

 

[CNBA3]

With what was stated about Oryx's contribution in the golden amputation. He is likely higher with his battle with Quria, still working on the simulation attempt of his strongest material state

and infinite time is not timeless, that implies that there is still time, when immeasurable fits the vex perfectly as they are outside linear time.

 

[Archaron]

You need to prove that raids actually don't work how they've always worked for that. Having an at most 4-B with a possibly far higher also doesn't really make sense.

I took the scans from my native language and translated them, it's even easy to prove it.

Here are some dialogues within the raids of destiny 2 and the D1 ttk campaign showing that it is always a single guardian whom they always refer to, not more. Toland also makes explicit that it refers to a single guardian who defeated oryx in the raid.

In the same way that "likely" also does not make sense, he it clearly defeats beings of that tier so why a dubious classification?

 

[WHYNAUT]

I agree with Wok and Bambu. I'm not sure about the D1 raids, but it's canon that Riven was killed by six guardians.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Arch, in all fairness, the game is almost certainly referring to one guardian that actually dealt the killing blow. Example.

A team of eight soldiers attack one powerful general. Even if they all assist, only one will actually kill him.

 

[Archaron]

@WHYNAUT

I've proven otherwise, unless you can prove it, it makes no sense to agree.

@Bambu

That does not make sense unless you proves it. The context makes clear from the outset that it refers to only one, across the raid/campaign, leaving no room for reverse opinions or misinterpretations.

 

[WHYNAUT]

I didn't see you make an argument that disproved it and that's why I agree with them.

 

[Archaron]

I have already proven that the destiny story of the PC guardian specifically, it is always him against all, no more, no less, and I have shown the proofs that alone refute this. the "likely 4-B" level is completely erroneous, and I refuted this, but for some reason they refuse to even consider the idea that it really was the PC guardian against everyone in the original story.

 

[Archaron]

Okay, can close the thread, it is useless at the moment, the dictator azzy deleted guardian profile simply because he wanted to and did not consider debating... It's sad to know that everything turns in the palm of someone's hand.

 

[Wokistan]

Pages with issues like this generally get deleted until they can be fixed if its something that's gonna take a while. It's not permanently gone, you can just ask him for the source code, but don't repost it. Just save it as a blog for now.

 

[Wokistan]

Raids consist of more than one person, and likely 4-B is if anything more impressive than an at most. At most is a cap at 4-B. Idk why you think this is an issue./

 

[Archaron]

Okay then, I'll ask for ant pass me source code. But it's like I said, if azzy does not agree he'll just delete, this discussion has already discussed about the axis minds and the guardian and we would edit them, but then he probably thinks the base that is in his mind is better than the discussion we have here, without even presenting it.

Destiny is a multiplayer game, it is natural for raids because of their difficulty to ask for a group, even having people do it alone. In the history of PC guardian in the history of game itself, it is only him against all.

I do not agree with a dubious 4-B rating, but now that you've said "at most" it also does not make sense... we have to work harder at this.

 

[Wokistan]

He deleted the Axis minds because with the state of their profiles it would be easier to rebuild from scratch then attempt to salvage them. This isn't anything new. You can still paste the source code into blogs if you want, but don't repost them as files.

 

[Wokistan]

There's been times where entire verses were deleted for unreliable files, so it could be worse.

 

[CNBA3]

well, we can still go with adding stats and feats for the hive pages.

 

[Wokistan]

The hive pages besides Oryx are fine as of now. Just don't post new files right now though.

 

[CNBA3]

What i mean is the speed feat i mentioned earlier and the upgrade for Oryx and the other hive pages with their Gift Mast feat and Oryx's battle with Quria.

Though this will have to wait as I am at work and will likely be busy for a while.

 

[Archaron]

So this discussion was made, and would be applied by the galaxian... but it is to be expected that he did not pay attention he already mentioned that he does not want to debate about destiny at the moment... But let's forget this for now, what has been done can not be turned back. I think without the guardian profile this thread is useless.

 

[Archaron]

Every profile, every scan, every destiny information will have to go through azzy now... oh god, it would be so much easier if he appeared and debated like everyone else and did not rule out.

 

[Wokistan]

It's actually not that abnormal for more complex/controversial files to be put under more scrutiny/get prior approval. It's just that none of the other current staff know the verse, which does put a bottleneck on things. It doesn't help that people made like 8 revision threads when we hadn't even finished the first one and that he's pretty busy, but again it could be worse. Look at how long Naruto revisions took lol

 

[Wokistan]

Honestly though idek how much I'm gonna be dealing with the verse here either as opposed to IRL stuff I've gotta do now or actually getting around to making a non destiny file I've wanted to make for a bit.