A few quick Mewtwo changes

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm not sure if this has been done already, but should Mewtwo get durability augmentation under his powers and abilities due to being able to level up and learn Barrier and Amnesia, which boost his defence and special defence sharply respectively? Also, there's the issue of Psych Up. It copies the positive and negative stat changes of the opponent. Can copy an opponent's boosts or something like that should be put on his profile.

Finally, this one is more of a question. Due to verse equalization, how should we classify Safeguard and Mist, two moves that prevent stat changes and status ailments. Would it be some level of hax immunity? Like, don't get me wrong. MOST haxes would still work. Reality warping, gravity manipulation, void manipulation, absorption, transmutation, etc. The ones I'm talking about are the ones that explicitly prevent Mewtwo from taking action or wears him down, like how Status Effects and stat moves do. The wearing down part would include things like debuffing moves, and some curses. It would be a case by case basis. The taking action part is more tricky. I was thinking something like absolute zero, petrification, or something like Itachi's genjustsu. There's one more that I was concerned about that would be an incredible reach, and that's time-stop.

Please let me know your opinion.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree. bump

 

[FictionalBlade101]

Mewtwo has time stop?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No. I'm stating that safeguard and/or mist would create a possible, but unlikely, temporary immunity to timestop.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Can I get some others please?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Hello?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

It's probably best if you message people on their message walls. That's what I do. XD

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's probably best if you message people on their message walls. That's what I do. XD

Noted

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm not sure how Barrier and Amnesia are durability negation. Amnesia makes Mewtwo himself more durable, whereas Barrier just directly cuts damage done to him and his teammates in half.

Psych Up is simple, as it should do exactly the same thing it does in-game in the lore. If Mewtwo's opponent uses a technique to multiply their power tenfold, Mewtwo using Psych Up should multiply his own power tenfold.

Safeguard should probably function as it does, in game. As in, Mewtwo will temporarily become immune to things like paralysis, being burned, being frozen solid, forced sleep, and having his mind adversely affected.

Mist is a bit more difficult to quantify, but I guess we could say it prevents Mewtwo's stats from being negatively impacted. For instance, an opponent trying to reduce his durability or AP wouldn't work.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Whoops. I meant to say augmentation. Not negation. lol

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, he should definitely have durability augmentation.

 

[RadicalMrR]

I agree with Azzy, Mewtwo's safeguard would be broken as all heck with it counted for hax thats not in Pokemon.

I'm not sure about the amnesia thing but i'm not against it and if it were taken into account here it may give quite a few pokemon a jump in tier with other moves like swords dance and such.

I agree with Azzy on the rest too.

 

[LordAizenSama]

mm this could turn into a mess. how does Mist work in the anime, any examples?

And i'm also concerned about a mix of gameplay mechanics sneaking in here through moves shown in the games.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

^Agreed. I've already explained why I disagree with using stats as representative of AP and Durability in regards to abilities or otherwise when there's no correlation between the two. In the manga and anime moves like barrier are depicted as Forcefields (which are shown for a brief moment in gameplay as well) and the move mist simply cloaks the individual in literal mist, making the opponent's attacks difficult to land IIRC.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

If Mist is just literal mist, then it's probably meaningless in most battles, here. As for things like Psych Up, the reason I believe it should work the same is due to the fact that, unlike something like Swords Dance which has a specific attack stat change in game, making it difficult to quantify in a battle aside from "makes you stronger", Psych Up simply copies whatever buffs the opponent has used on themselves, which is incredibly easy to transition into lore and battles here.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

snip

If Mist is just literal mist, then it's probably meaningless in most battles, here. As for things like Psych Up, the reason I believe it should work the same is due to the fact that, unlike something like Swords Dance which has a specific attack stat change in game, making it difficult to quantify in a battle aside from "makes you stronger", Psych Up simply copies whatever buffs the opponent has used on themselves, which is incredibly easy to transition into lore and battles here.

Wouldn't Swords Dance quantify as a sortve power boost? Take Dragon Ball characters for example they charge up their KI when they power up, making them expotentially more powerful

I could see Swords Dance as something like this but thats just personally me

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Psyche up is probably fine. I also agree with what has been said about Safeguard.

@FictionalBlade he noted it to be a powerup, but a power up to an unquantifiable degree.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

There are also 2 moves i just recently looked up that Mewtwo can learn via tutoring (prep) that can be of great help: Magic Room and Wonder Room. Both moves have the same effect as Trick Room by first creating a mysterious space (reality warping/pocket dimension creation). But both moves have different effects elsewhere:

Magic Room basically makes all items used within its space useless and unusable. So if we quanified that, say for example Mewtwo was fighting Ichigo or a soul reaper. Their Shikai and Bankai would be rendered useless in that space, meaning the best a soul repear could do with their Zanpakto is just use it like any regular swordsman. For an even better image of this happening, think of Magic Room happening like Kaname's Bankai that he used against Kenpachi only with different effects/laws.

Wonder Room switches the defense and special defense of it's opponent inside the space. In other words it's switching Durability. It's basically like Guard Swap only Wonder Room does it automatically.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

We don't use Tms and tutor moves unless they were shown to use it in some other media. Also, wonder room is based on game mechanics. Defense and special defense stats do not mean durability.

 

[LlamaGod1411]

Why don't we consider TMs/HMs?

They literally show that the pokemon in question can use those moves.


And we do consider Games as Primary Canon, so why aren't TMs considered?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

They are artificial means by which a Pokemon is able to utilize said abilities. Otherwise, they can't use them.

 

[LlamaGod1411]

Artificial, Yea, but still, ultimately they are abilities the Pokemon in question can use.

For Example, I could state that composite Dialga can use Hidden Power, and I'm not wrong in stating that, it can actually use Hidden Power.

 

[Volundox]

In regard to swords dance, it is largely questionable as it doubles a pokemons physical attack stat. Its fine if your considering a physical pokemon but with a primarily special pokemon like Mewtwo its impact would be uncertain, since we don't know how his physical powers stack upto his special powers.

Mist negates stat boosts, but this is only ingame. In other sources it has only been shown as generating pure mist and not having much more of an affect. It has however been shown in one source to create a barrier out of specks of ice, giving it offensive and defensive purposes.

Safeguard has been consistently shown to protect from attacks as well as being shown to prevent status ailments.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

how are defense/special defense not durability? even the anime shows it as durability

Also Tms/Hms are ultimately just machines so if, lets say prep is involved, why cant they be factored in? Especially if the pokemon using them are smart enough to develop their own machinery like Mewtwo's cloning lab for instance?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Composite is a terminology used when the feats from several different canon sources can be used.

Now, considering that A: no Dialga has ever used Hidden Power in any media.

B: It's not under the list of its abilities it has been known to learn under its own power I'll have to conclude you are indeed incorrect.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

how are defense/special defense not durability? even the anime shows it as durability

Do you mean by moves like barrier? Which are said to increase your defense stats, but is actually them creating forcefields so they don't impact with the attack instead?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Also Tms/Hms are ultimately just machines so if, lets say prep is involved, why cant they be factored in? Especially if the pokemon using them are smart enough to develop their own machinery like Mewtwo's cloning lab for instance?

The only pokemon shown to have that kind of technological genius is Mewtwo, and the only thing he made was his own versions of pokeballs. There is literally no reason to assume he's just going to create a TM machine because...reasons. He already thinks himself one of the strongest Pokemon.

 

[LlamaGod1411]

@TMR Even if Dialga does not learn it on its own, it is still an attack that it can use, provided there is prep time, so in theory, the Pokemon should be allowed to use their TMs/HMs moves.


Edit : I do know what Composite means. I had put Composite in, because technically Dialga can use attacks like Hidden Power in Games, which are Primary Canon for Pokemon.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I'm also going to have issues with the use of Psych up here. it's just NLF waiting to happen.

 

[LlamaGod1411]

^ A lot of Pokemon moves are NLF-ish & Haxed, Yea.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

how are defense/special defense not durability? even the anime shows it as durability

Do you mean by moves like barrier? Which are said to increase your defense stats, but is actually them creating forcefields so they don't impact with the attack instead?

No i mean their defense/special defense period. Like lets say a pokemon uses a move to increase defensive power, it would then gain more defense against an attack and brush it off. Same scenerio with a special attack with a pokemons special defense against energy/elemental moves. Thats what i mean when im saying its Durability. Barrier i think is just a specific move that doesnt do either but just makes a barrier to protect you like Protect/Kings Shield.

Also no Mewtwo isnt the only pokemon who has shown self made technology. Clefa/Clefariy in the first series have shown to travel in their very own space ships from outer space 2x in the series, even the evolved forms of Inkay (forget their names) have shown to create machinery that were planetary threats and could travel through dimensions in the XY anime too and thats just from the top of my head. Im not saying Mewtwo will have the TM/HM in mid battle im saying IF prep is involved before going into battle, and considering how Mewtwo can easily build machinery, i dont see why it wouldnt have it in THAT scenerio. I agree he likely wouldnt have it during battle.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm also going to have issues with the use of Psych up here. it's just NLF waiting to happen.

I understand your concern, but it being a potential NLF doesn't stop it from being a legit ability. We also have several other attacks/abilities/haxes that could be potential NLF's, with some that shouldn't even be NLF's. Besides, we already agreed that Mewtwo probably couldn't contain energy above 4-C at best, and that's for composite.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

@TMR Even if Dialga does not learn it on its own, it is still an attack that it can use, provided there is prep time.

No.

Prep time for what? So it can get captured? Just for the chance that its trainer might teach it that specific move? By that point in time it would be meaningless anyway, as Pokeballs weaken Legendary Pokemon making this incredibly unlikely scenario, completely meaningless in a battle setting.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

But why would Dialga, you know, the TIME pokemon, have meaningless prep? Also i thought pokeballs were just another form of game mechanics. Why are they being brought up in a VS battle scenerio?

 

[LlamaGod1411]

@TMR It still does not change the fact that Dialga can possibly use such an attack, even though it is artificial power it is power.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Yes, yes and the Elygem built FTL UFO's my genuine mistake.

Nonetheless every thing else I've heard are hypothetical statements that do not convince me in the slightest.

Barrier is explicitly stated to raise a shield to heighten the defense stat. The very fact this doesn't occur debunks the fact that defense stat=physical durability. It doesn't. It's a case by case basis. Things such as harden are explicitly shown to raise someones durability, things such as the wonder room have not, the only logia being behind this are based on stats.

Pokeballs exist in every media, they are not game mechanics. Stats are game mechanics as they are not indicative of an individual's abilities or every Pokemon with a defense stat higher than 120 will be multi-Universe level in durability.

LlamaGod1411, I find your insistence on giving characters abilities that they are usually incapable of performing, very disturbing and I'll have to ask that you drop it.

 

[LlamaGod1411]

I don't really mind dropping the topic, but I do not really see how the Pokemon are incapable of Performing said TMs, when they have clearly shown the ability to learn them, in the Primary Source Canon.

Not even sure how it is "Disturbing", but yea.

Peace~

 

[LordAizenSama]

^ A lot of Pokemon moves are NLF-ish & Haxed, Yea.

Gameplay mechanics are not hax.

Geez. Next somebody in this thread is going to try convince me Sheer cold is a OHKO that bypasses dura or something.

 

[LlamaGod1411]

^ Psych Up(Your Example) is literally haxed, not a gameplay Mechanic.

NLF, but Hax. Most attacks are Gameplay, but there are truly haxed moves like Recover & Protect.


And Edit : Sheer Cold is technically OHKO if it hits and opp is inferior. Fissure isn't.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If you said fissure, I'd get the joke, but I thought this site agreed sheer cold was an absolute zero attack, and that ONLY sheer cold was an acception?