A different essay for Ascended Athena????? (God of War)

[Georredannea15]

Lmao then they confused it with the LN profile because Rimuru had an accepted TD

 

[Deagonx]

but the reason they basically reject it is because they say that since TD is required to have QS, it also requires higher -D power or existence.

No, I am saying it needs to have QS. QS doesn't just refer to dimensionality, it refers to any additional infinite leap in power, which Athena doesn't have over these dualities, so she can't have Transduality.

 

[Robo432343]

Lmao then they confused it with the LN profile because Rimuru had an accepted TD

dude you cant just say that
rimuru has nd type 1 aspect 1. end of story, there is literally no confusion

 

[Georredannea15]

No, I am saying it needs to have QS. QS doesn't just refer to dimensionality, it refers to any additional infinite leap in power, which Athena doesn't have over these dualities, so she can't have Transduality.

The infinitely power jump can still be even at the same tier and dimension Lmao.

This was literally the argument for rejected to higher D. Also, the QS you have in TD comes not in terms of power, in terms of existence, and in fact the fact that Athena always has the higher existence against them and is uninteractive proves this.

I'm also curious what Qawsedf thinks for the OP

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm not saying there shouldn't be QS here, but the reason they basically reject it is because they say that since TD is required to have QS, it also requires higher -D power or existence.

The characters in question are described as ND type 2. Being TD to them would require a transinfinite power gap or at least a transinfinite state of existence in comparison to them.

He is claiming that the term QS in our Nonduality standards has a different meaning and set of criteria than it does in our tiering standards, and I have absolutely no idea why that would be the case. Can you offer clarity in that regard?

Due to the nature of the primordials, the only way she could get TD is either with an AP upgrade or nerfing them to ND Type 1 and then argue that she has Aleph-1 superiority to their existence. Which would also involve an AP upgrade.

 

[Dereck03]

the QS you have in TD comes not in terms of power, in terms of existence, and in fact the fact that Athena always has the higher existence against them and is uninteractive proves this.

Yeah, this is true.

By the way, there is a misconception about ND Nature 2 aka TD that now that we are talking about ND I will mention it.

1. Transduality: Characters with this type of nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems they're nondual regarding while also possessing qualitative superiority to them. Besides immunizing them against the dualities in question, this power also immunizes them against attempts to apply those dualities to them, as they would transcend the scope of the haxes that could do so.

People get scared when they hear QS because all at once they think that the only necessary requirement would be transcendence, but as the page indicates by existing outside of all those dualities would be a qualification, but at the same time you have to show some kind of superiority, this can come from statements like "Transcendence", "Beyond", "Lacking"/"Outside" + Overall superiority over the dualities (Although we know that Beyond and Transcendence are the same since it implies exceeding or surpassing the limits of something, this can be proven by complete superiority without a direct statement of "Transcendence"). So unless you have statements of the 3 terms or situations just mentioned or your character has a complete superiority in both existence and physiology (without the need of a transcendence or a higher dimensionality) over these dualities you can propose TD.

 

[Georredannea15]

The problem is that you guys present the same counterarguments here as those for higher -D existence and higher -D power, different QS requirements, but the same counterargument.

Not every QS means infinite power difference, QS means those quantities will never affect you. And, we have this.

 

[Georredannea15]

People get scared when they hear QS because all at once they think that the only necessary requirement would be transcendence, but as the page indicates by existing outside of all those dualities would be a qualification, but at the same time you have to show some kind of superiority, this can come from statements like "Transcendence", "Beyond", "Lacking"/"Outside" + Overall superiority over the dualities (Although we know that Beyond and Transcendence are the same since it implies exceeding or surpassing the limits of something, this can be proven by complete superiority without a direct statement of "Transcendence"). So unless you have statements of the 3 terms or situations just mentioned or your character has a complete superiority in both existence and physiology (without the need of a transcendence or a higher dimensionality) over these dualities you can propose TD.

I can say that we have this with direct statements and feats

 

[Qawsedf234]

The problem is that you guys present the same counterarguments here as those for higher -D existence and higher -D power, different QS requirements, but the same counterargument.

There are fringe cases where you could get TD without an AP upgrade, but the cosmic forces she would have TD to are directly tiering related. Which is presumably why they're bringing it up.

 

[Deagonx]

but at the same time you have to show some kind of superiority, this can come from statements like "Transcendence", "Beyond", "Lacking"/"Outside" + Overall superiority over the dualities

One correct, you don't need to show "some kind" of superiority, you need to show "qualitative" superiority, which isn't sufficiently proven by phrases like transcending or beyond alone.

 

[Georredannea15]

There are fringe cases where you could get TD without an AP upgrade, but the cosmic forces she would have TD to are directly tiering related. Which is presumably why they're bringing it up.

Usually most TDs are taken without any AP upgrades anyway.

Because the meaning of QS in TD is to be superior to all the quantities of those dualities. This is not an AP requirement

 

[Georredannea15]

One correct, you don't need to show "some kind" of superiority, you need to show "qualitative" superiority, which isn't sufficiently proven by phrases like transcending or beyond alone.

For this, it is already enough to be completely transcendent to the nature of dualities/non-dual beings and not affected by them, this is not any higher-D power or existence.

 

[Robo432343]

can't you see that most characters if not all with ND nature 2 aspect 2 have some sort of qualitative superiority towards them? take the ultimate gods from cthulthu mythos for example or maria ushiromia from umineko

 

[KLOL506]

What are we even arguing here anymore? It's gotten all convoluted.

 

[Georredannea15]

can't you see that most characters with ND type 2 aspect 2 have some sort of qualitative superiority towards them? take the ultimate gods from cthulthu mythos for example or maria ushiromia from umineko

Yep, that's how those gods get type 5 acausality and other things too not just TD.

It's very difficult to really use this as an example.

 

[Dereck03]

One correct, you don't need to show "some kind" of superiority, you need to show "qualitative" superiority, which isn't sufficiently proven by phrases like transcending or beyond alone.

We accept statements like transcendence over dualities or beyond dualities or over characters that have ND 1 to be ND 2 + overall superiority in terms of existence and statements such as lacking/outside with the same evidence of superiority existence/physiology. You can't make verses to remark "Qualitative Superiority" term into their settings. If the evidence is enough to support these instances then it's valid, those instances are the ones I mentioned above, anymore than that is just getting into vs scaling territories.

 

[Qawsedf234]

ecause the meaning of QS in TD is to be superior to all the quantities of those dualities. This is not an AP requirement

Let's read your comment:

• QS in TD is to be superior to all quantities of those dualities

Now let's read the Primordials

Nonduality (Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 2) (Are the personifications of the most fundamental aspects of reality,[9] predating and being independent of any and all of them.[10] Said aspects include, space and time, life and death, darkness and light, dreams and the physical world and more)

Your argument hinges on Athena having QS to the concepts of Time and Space. Which would give her an AP upgrade by proxy.

In addition a higher existence isn't the same as a transinfinite difference. I'm not seeing TD here.

 

[Deagonx]

You can't make verses to remark "Qualitative Superiority" term into their settings.

Of course, but we need prove that the character is infinitely greater, not just somewhat greater.

 

[Georredannea15]

Let's read your comment:

• QS in TD is to be superior to all quantities of those dualities

Now let's read the Primordials

Your argument hinges on Athena having QS to the concepts of Time and Space. Which would give her an AP upgrade by proxy.

In addition a higher existence isn't the same as a transinfinite difference. I'm not seeing TD here.

Transcending the concepts of space and time does not mean dimensional transcendence here; what you say only applies to dimensional superiority.


Because TD just means being immune and superior to the quantities of dualities you've transcended, it's not an "infinitely power jump" or anything like that, and it doesn't even grant AP. This is an existential advantage and does not give you AP or anything like that.

 

[Georredannea15]

Again, "infinitely greater" does not mean QS, QS is literally being always superior to any quantity level you transcended, it is not a power or AP difference.

It's a bit strange that it's being used here to deny things I heard for the first time on TD.

 

[Deagonx]

Again, "infinitely greater" does not mean QS, QS is literally being always superior to any quantity level you transcended, it is not a power or AP difference.

QS refers to a higher level of infinity, not just a vague notion of a higher existence or unspecified superiority. Being greater than the primordials isn't QS over the concepts they represent unless you have QS over the primordials, which Athena doesn't.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Transcending the concepts of space and time does not mean dimensional transcendence here

Yes it does, because you're arguing QS

A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.

QS is literally being superior to any quantity you transcended, it is not a power or AP difference.

Georre, the quantities you are arguing she transcends is space and time. The things our tiering system is literally based upon.

In fact you're arguing even further, because you're saying her existence is superior to everyone else as well.

Because TD just means being immune and superior to the quantities of dualities you've transcended

It does not. The written definition is qualitatively superior to those concepts in a way that completely transcends them. It's not just immunity, it's being so far beyond them that they legitimately are not able to effect you.

 

[Georredannea15]

QS refers to a higher level of infinity, not just a vague notion of a higher existence or unspecified superiority. Being greater than the primordials isn't QS over the concepts they represent unless you have QS over the primordials, which Athena doesn't.

Did you really say that? Seriously? This means higher -D and higher -D AP, you are repeating the rejected arguments for higher -D...

Georre, the quantities you are arguing she transcends is space and time. The things our tiering system is literally based upon.

The nature of dualities and concepts has nothing to do with AP, power, energy or anything like that.

What is important here is which type of QS we are talking about,

For concepts/dualities and their nature?
For the power difference?
For dimensionality? Or for something different?

Your counterarguments are literally "for a power difference and dimensionality difference, and these have nothing to do with the nature of concepts/dualities"

And TD is not a difference of power, dimensionality or AP, it's a difference of existence from the nature of these concepts and dualities.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The nature of dualities and concepts has nothing to do with AP,

If you transcend the concept of space, you are rated per our explicit rulings as one dimensional level above that space. The fact that space is a concept she would have QS over would automatically be a AP upgrade.

And TD is not a difference of power, dimensionality or AP, it'S a difference of existence from the nature of these concepts and dualities.

The nature she transcends is the foundation of the Tiering System. I don't understand how you're not getting this or how if she was a QS higher in existence she would also be in a tierable higher state of existence.

If you nerfed the Primordial's ND you could make an argument, but you aren't doing that. In addition she doesn't even meet the qualifications for TD through her existence in the first place in my view.

 

[Deagonx]

Did you really say that? Seriously? This means higher -D and higher -D AP, you are repeating the rejected arguments for higher -D...

No, I'm not referring to dimensionality (though that is one way to get QS, it is not the only way), I am referring to the basic qualification for QS, which is infinite superiority.

I find it very absurd that earlier when we were arguing you tried to rebut what I was saying by quoting Qawsedf, and then you insisted we bring a "TD expert" into the discussion and assured me that Qawsedf would feel the same way as you.

Now he is here, explaining to you in great detail that you are mistaken, and you still don't capitulate. Who exactly would you believe, if not myself or Qawsedf?

 

[Georredannea15]

If you transcend the concept of space, you are rated per our explicit rulings as one dimensional level above that space. The fact that space is a concept she would have QS over would automatically be a AP upgrade.

We cannot really confuse a conceptual nature with spatiality, we do not even do this anymore in "concepts of dimensions".

The nature she transcends is the foundation of the Tiering System. I don't understand how you're not getting this or how if she was a QS higher in existence she would also be in a tierable higher state of existence.

That's the problem... You"put QS on equal footing with higher power and higher infinity" here

We cannot lump things with different contexts and natures under the same umbrella.

If you nerfed the Primordial's ND you could make an argument, but you aren't doing that. In addition she doesn't even meet the qualifications for TD through her existence in the first place in my view.

Why would I have to nerf Primordials' ND? Whether they are there or not doesn't make much difference here anyway.

 

[Georredannea15]

No, I'm not referring to dimensionality (though that is one way to get QS, it is not the only way), I am referring to the basic qualification for QS, which is infinite superiority.

I find it very absurd that earlier when we were arguing you tried to rebut what I was saying by quoting Qawsedf, and then you insisted we bring a "TD expert" into the discussion and assured me that Qawsedf would feel the same way as you.

Now he is here, explaining to you in great detail that you are mistaken, and you still don't capitulate. Who exactly would you believe, if not myself or Qawsedf?

You are already misinterpreting QS at first place

Qualitative superiority is not being infinitely superior to something, since you interpret it that way you also say "higher infinity" and this goes to the difference in AP and power.

Qualitative superiority is being completely superior to the quantities you encompass or exceed. And since no verse can explain such a thing with a direct expression, transcendence against the nature of dualities and a corresponding non-interaction is generally sufficient for TD.

 

[Georredannea15]

Also, @Qawsedf234 regarding the dimensional transcendence/ or power difference issue you mentioned, a 6-D being or power against a 5-D dualities cannot have TD in the first place because this transcendence is not inherent in the concepts and dualities, it's directly means being qualitative superiority terms of power and dimension.


According to your logic, a 6-D level of existence or power can take TD according to 5-D dualities, but such a being cannot receive TD in the first place because QS here is not against the nature of concepts and dualities. A 6D being or power does not have TD, it is direct power and dimensionally superior to 5D dualities. Presenting this... is a bit ridiculous.

 

[Deagonx]

Qualitative superiority is not being infinitely superior to something

A: Qualitative superiority, also sometimes called being qualitatively greater, is a term colloquially used to mean that something is superior to an extent that it justifies being on a higher tier of infinity in terms of our Tiering System than the thing they are superior to.

In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".
--
Yes, it is.

 

[Georredannea15]

A: Qualitative superiority, also sometimes called being qualitatively greater, is a term colloquially used to mean that something is superior to an extent that it justifies being on a higher tier of infinity in terms of our Tiering System than the thing they are superior to.

Yes, it is.

The part you quoted in bold refers to Tier...

I don't see anything related to tier or power difference in the OP

In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".
--

And also this... Oh yes, it refers to dimensionality, I still don't see any relevance to the one in the OP

 

[Deagonx]

The part you quoted in bold refers to Tier...

It refers to the definition of qualitative superiority.

That is the only definition of qualitative superiority.

 

[Qawsedf234]

We cannot really confuse a conceptual nature with spatiality, we do not even do this anymore in "concepts of dimensions".

Space-Time concepts expressed as distance and the progression of events. If you're qualitatively superior to those concepts you are by our rules at least a dimensional level higher because you exceed them by a uncountable infinite amount.

That's the problem... You"put QS on equal footing with higher power and higher infinity" here

You're saying she transcends all concepts in GoW by a QS amount and exist within a QS state of being to everyone else. Both claims are saying she's an uncountable infinite above the concept of space-time and the Primordials.

Why would I have to nerf Primordials' ND? Whether they are there or not doesn't make much difference here anyway.

Because you literally mentioned them

Yes, basically Athena, according to Cory Barlog's statements, ascended to a higher existence, transcendent of all powers and all beings in all pantheons.

And among these beings, realms and powers, this includes the primordial beings.

By your arguments you're saying Athena is QS to beings who are ND to Space-Time. It's a direct AP upgrade along with an upgrade to TD.

5-D dualities cannot have TD

TD means you have QS over all concepts of that level. You wouldn't be assumed to have immunity to conceptual manipulation by dimensionally superior characters.

According to your logic, a 6-D level of existence or power can take TD according to 5-D dualities, but such a being cannot receive TD in the first place because QS here is not against the nature of concepts and dualities.

Your example is incorrect, because it's based on the 6D being already being 6D. In this case it's a being with no set dimensionality being QS to the concepts of space-time in the regular cosmology.

 

[Georredannea15]

It refers to the definition of qualitative superiority.

That is the only definition of qualitative superiority.

I think you are ignoring the "Tier" part, the qualitative superiority quote here is written for "tier", that is, the difference in power.

So for a specific type, but when you look at the general meaning of QS, it's actually being superior to all the quantities that you cover or transcended.

And TD is basically superior of the quantities inherent in the dualities you transcend or contain.

Man, really, i don't know how to explain it more clearly.

 

[Deagonx]

Man, really, i don't know how to explain it more clearly.

It isn't an issue of your explanation. I am not misunderstanding you, you are simply wrong. To be "qualitatively superior" to something you must be a higher level of infinity. The term QS is not used in any other way on this site. Being superior to a concept doesn't mean you have QS to that concept unless you're on a higher level of infinity relative to it. This would indeed also accompany a tier upgrade -- you can't separate QS and tier upgrades -- but it is in fact a requirement for TD.

 

[KLOL506]

Ugh... can I get a TL; DR of what exactly has been agreed upon?

 

[Qawsedf234]

This would indeed also accompany a tier upgrade -- you can't separate QS and tier upgrades

You can, just not in this case. You can be TD over life-death without needing a higher AP as a pff hand example.

Though to be QS over a entity or a hard physics concept like Space-Time would be a Tier upgrade.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ugh... can I get a TL; DR of what exactly has been agreed upon?

ND Type 2 or 3 is fine but not TD afaik

 

[Deagonx]

Ugh... can I get a TL; DR of what exactly has been agreed upon?

ND Type 2

You can be TD over life-death without needing a higher AP as a pff hand example

If you are on a QS realm of existence relative to life and death, wouldn't you need to have a tier that reflects being QS to that realm?

 

[Qawsedf234]

If you are on a QS realm of existence relative to life and death, wouldn't you need to have a tier that reflects being QS to that realm?

Not to my understanding, since life and death are just states of existence. Being beyond that state of existence would not necessarily require a higher dimensional magnitude of power.

 

[Dereck03]

ND Type 2

Wait.... ND Type 2 is Transduality..... ND Type 1 is Nonduality.

1. Nonduality:
2. Transduality: