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A battle between villains who refuse to stay dead. Sigma vs Ganondorf (One more vote)

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Question: If reality warping affects a Solar System sized dimension, is a character beyond the Solar System tier or at least higher than the original dimension, still affected by it? For example, could Ganon wish away a 3-C? Does the 3-C need explicitely resistance to RW to whistand?

On topic: I ran through the topic, but aside the Soul Erasure Fate mentions, does Sigma have anything else? AZ wouldn't just kill Ganon for him to reform? Sorry if it was already answered.
 
@Tarta you just need to resist the RW to not be affected. Your tiering doesn't affect how effective your opponent's hax are unless we're talking about dimensional stuff where that does become a factor.
 
The problem with RW: Ok, say someone reality warps and changes how a world looks like and how it works. That's an application. Alright.

So that person altered that realm. Fine.

If that translates to = Altered x sized realm so they can insta-delete x tiered person, then excuse me for a moment while I go give every pocket reality manipulator the capability of insta-erasing people of comparable tier to the pocket realms they make.
 
I mean, I wouldn't mind Base Lavos having Low 2-C Reality/Space-Time Erasure based on his pocket dimension and his presence affecting the very structure of Space-Time when it was at its weakest while also looking like an extension beyond the End of Time. Or Road Kamelot having an undetermined higher level of RW based erasure because her Dream World is of an unknown higher size than her current tier.
 
TartaChocholate said:
On topic: I ran through the topic, but aside the Soul Erasure Fate mentions, does Sigma have anything else? AZ wouldn't just kill Ganon for him to reform? Sorry if it was already answered.
Click to expand...
Now about this, nah. I mentioned AZ because it's generally agreed to oneshot Ganon's body and leave him as a disembodied soul. Taking that into consideration and with Sigma having Soul Removal/Deletion on his arsenal, he could proceed to delete Ganon's soul after getting rid of his body with AZ.
 
Theglassman12 said:
There's never been a point in the series where Ganon wished away his enemies with the Triforce. It's completely OoC for him to do so.
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He only had it once (this key) and his only enemy could resist it. It's not because it's ooc, he could literally never do that even when he wanted.
 
@Triforce None of the Hylian knights or the sages resist the effects of the Triforce yet Ganon never wished them away during the sealing war. Also Ganons resistance to soul manipulation is really not that good, with the extent of his resistance being that he can't be turned into a soul.
 
Okay, I've read the imprisoning war in HH directly translated from jap to ita, and it implies much more that demons were just naturally going out of the sacred realm and attacking the ones that would stop them from doing so. Ganon isn't mentioned or even implied here.

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We do not know what Ganon wished for after gaining the Triforce's power. Yet, Ganon's evil made it to even Hyrule as it spread. People of greed were herded and consumed by this power, and disappeared. Black clouds grew in number in the sky, and many sinister happenings began to occur. The King of Hyrule called upon the Seven Sages of Hyrule, as well as the Knights to seal the source of this evil. The Triforce itself cannot judge between good and evil. That is because only the gods can do that. However, it could not be assumed that only a good person would get their hands on the Triforce. For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane. It was called the Master Sword, and it is said that only a true hero could use it. The Sages first had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to use it. Using the most of their powers, the Sages and Knights threw open a heroic battle with the evil one. The Knights had valiantly used their bodies as shields during the fierce attack, and although they unfortunately perished when their strength had exhausted, this had given the Sages time to complete their Seal. The people celebrated their victory; Hyrule had been saved from Ganon's misuse of the Triforce's power. This battle, for its many sacrifices, was passed down to future generations as the "Seal War."

Source: The japanese manual for A Link to the Past.
 
HH retconnected most of that.

Ganon had already been sealed away at the end of OoT, so he had very little influence in the sealing war.

ALTTP is quite the old game, and tons of things were retconnected.
 
The only thing HH reconned was how he ended up in the Sacred Realm / Dark World prior to the war. The original was that he and his followers accidentally found their way into the Sacred Realm and the retcon was the 7 sages just sent him there after he defeated Link. The war still happens and Ganon still just sits around with his thumb up his arse while his army is fighting the Hylians and the sages prepare a proper seal to keep him stuck in the Dark World.

In short they never retcon the events of the war itself, but just how Ganon ends up in the Sacred Realm / Dark World prior to the war.
 
Correction: Ganon was SEALED in the sacred realm, probably in the pyramid of power.

And HH explains quite well that the reason they sealed the entrance was just to prevent more people disappearing and more monsters appearing
 
I mean, the HH explaining they sealed the entrance to prevent people disappearing and more monsters appearing makes no difference since that's what they also say in the original game and at no point does it state that it's the only reason, it only gives a very brief summary of the events that ALTTP goes more into detail with.

The seal in OOT after he killed Link has nothing to do with Ganon being unable to leave the Sacred Realm or use the Triforce during the sealing war, both ALTTP and HH state that only the seal from the war is what needs to be broken for him to escape, so nothing was stopping him from wishing away the knights and sages during the war since, again, only the seal from the war was limiting him and nothing else and once Agahnim fully reopens the entrance Ganon will be able to leave and mess shit up. Not to mention he didn't wish away the sages in OOT before they sealed him away the first time, and the HH never mention or even implies he couldn't have done so.
 
Anyway I'm gonna give my thoughts on this match.

Ganon Advantages:

  • BFR to the Dark World guarantees a win
  • Can seal Sigma into a magical crystal
  • Can pull a Bayonetta and attack Sigma while remaining in the Dark World
Sigma Advantages:

  • Absolute Zero will instantly destroy Ganons body
  • Can bypass regen by deleting his soul
  • Mind Manipulation that apparently works on humans that Ganon can't resist
The prep that both gets could work in either ones benefit, but Sigma has definitive feats in regards to prep while Ganon requires guesswork based on his character. I'm tempted to go with Inconclusive or with Sigma, but I'll have to think about it more.
 
Both sealing affected Ganon.

HH states that Zelda and the sages sealed Ganon in the sacred realm as a last hope, and it's also written in the next page that for some time peace returned, meaning that the first seal must have still affected him, and I'm assuming that Ganon didn't wish them away because he was probably caught by surprise (maybe when gloating about getting the full thing, which seems consistent with what the ALTTP manual says as well).

I'm not sure mindhax is an effective way of winning as not even Fate remembers if it worked on humans, and Ganon technically resists EE, so unless he has some kind of overpowered EE, it shouldn't affect Ganon.

Thinking about it, wasn't Ganon's plan in some game to obtain the full TF to transform the Zelda verse in some kind of Dark World with the same characteristics? Without Link or Zelda stopping him, he should be able to do it in this battle and transform the entire battlefield in "lol transmutation".
 
Oh yeah there's no denying both seals affected him, but ultimately only the 2nd seal was the only one he needed to be broken to leave the Dark World and use the Triforce to turn the world into a living hell, in fact the HH seems to implied that both seals are the same thing since it states that the sages sealed the entrance agai which seems to imply that the original seal wore off and then had to do it again, but ultimately it's uncertain how it all worked.

I could see Ganon being too busy gloating to pay to the sages, and to go off topic for a bit the Downfall Timeline is ironically the worst outcome for Ganon. I mean he finally gains all 3 pieces of the Triforce and is the most powerful being to ever exist barring the Golden Goddesses, but then he gets sealed away before he can do anything, then he becomes victim of another seal later down the line which leaves him and his army trapped in another universe, and then after several centuries he finally breaks the seal only to get killed and lose the Triforce and spend the rest of the timeline as a mindless brute. Really sucks for him.

Anyway back on topic, Sigmas mind hax is the main reason I'm so on the fence about who wins, his profile says he can affect humans but the only evidence I found was on MvC Infinite (Which is a non canon crossover). Plus as you said, Fate also doesn't remember any instance of Sigma affecting humans. Ganon resisting EE =/= resisting soul destruction, while both abilites ultimately achieve the same result they're not actually the same thing...I think.

I know Ganon was planning to conquer the Light World but I don't think it was ever said he'll turn it into another Dark World although there's no doubt he could if he wanted too and if he does do that then yeah Sigmas getting transmuted.
 
Deleting souls is still EE.

Delete is a synonym to erase (I think)

King ex machina must have felt worse for Gano

"Ganon's wish was to conquer the world. That wish changed the Golden Land to the Dark World." Essence of the Triforce.

If he wished for that in Hyrule (like he tries to do in every game), it should transform into the dark world. It would most likely work to Sigma's base/verse granting him win via incap.
 
Wait, if the Triforce could wish away souls, then why didin't Ganondorf wish away Zelda's bloodline or Link's soul when he had the full triforce?
 
I'm not sure if it can wish away souls. Also, as Dust said, even when he had it, he could never use it against his foes because he was sealed away until the end of ALTTP in which he had to defeat Link that could resist its effects. So it's mainly bad luck for our blue pig.
 
Yeah it's pretty difficult to get rid of your enemies when a magical seal from a bunch of old men won't let you do so. Plus during ALTTP he actually needed Zelda alive so he could break the seal on the Dark World and he didn't really notice Link even existed / viewed him as a threat until it was too late.
 
It's absolutely a good idea to ignore the boy in the green tunic with a sword that destroys evil EXACTLY like the one that nearly defeated you hundreds of years ago.
 
Would what the Triforce is capable of in Hyrule Warriors be considered canon or not? Because Non-Canondorf has the full triforce for an extended period of time in that game and dosn't wish anybody away.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
It's absolutely a good idea to ignore the boy in the green tunic with a sword that destroys evil EXACTLY like the one that nearly defeated you hundreds of years ago. </div>
Click to expand...
But Ganon had the full Triforce, why worry about a boy who has a absolutely 0% chance of beating you. I mean what's he gonna do? Kill him with enchanted arrows?
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Deleting souls is still EE.
Delete is a synonym to erase (I think)
Click to expand...
Nah, not really, Soul Manip/Removal/Deletion isn't existence erasure.

In fact, the characters affected by this become hollow, soulless shells if their body was around when it got forcefully removed.

Resisting EE is generally different from Resisting Soul Hax.

Just wanted to point this out because I believe I gave good enough reasons for why I'm voting Sigma but I'm also generally too lazy-slash-mind somewhere else to keep debating by now so I won't stop anyone to try voting otherwise. lol
 
@Fate Just a quick question, how strong is Sigma's soul hax? From you've shown it seems like he can affect only one soul, but I somehow doubt that.
 
Probably the same scale as in any other MMX incident (Planetary). We aren't given an exact number but they mention that "a lot of souls were removed suddenly" and at the end of the game the souls that weren't deleted but used for power all go around flying back to their hollow bodies.

Sigma was planning to affect Megaman and/or Zero with it, who have the same tier as him.

So we don't have much about exact numbers mentioned. What I know is that it scales to his own tier and does affect "a lot" more people than one. But exactly how much would probs be guesstimate.
 
It's still somewhat inside Ganon's resistances. The Twilight realm had enough soul magic that it could merge with the light World and create a new dark world that is reasonably at least planet sized, then multiplied by 3 as each piece of the the TF can resist Twilight magic.
 
The real cal howard said:
@Fate. Sigma's statement is probably hyperbole...given that he said that to robots...who don't have souls...
Click to expand...
Or these robots could just have souls. Wouldn't be the first time that has happened in fiction.
 
In fact those robots do actual have souls. DNA souls, witch are stated to be similar to human souls. Mega Man Xtreme 2.
 
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