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8-B Genin & 7-C Jirobo Removal | Part 1 Naruto CRT

For a long time on this wiki it seems that the Genin from Naruto have all been considered 8-B through scaling to Sasuke’s Fireball Jutsu, Sasuke’s Bear Kick and eventually to Jirobo Throwing Choji. There’s a ton of problems with this, some obvious and some less so. I'm going to do my best at covering pretty much everything.

Sasuke’s Fireball Jutsu:
The feat itself:
First off, I want to bring back the topic of Sasuke’s fireball crater. It seems to be generally agreed upon that he vaporized the ground, but I just don’t think that’s the case. Fikriskps did a good job at explaining some of the biggest problems I have with the calculation, namely, geological conditions. Since trees were growing it seems pretty clear that there was at least a good amount of dirt under them, and since his crater was relatively small, it doesn’t exactly matter if it turns rock solid a bit underneath them.

As for the databook stating that it was vaporization, that’s not really the case either. Not only does the word “engulf the target” not necessarily mean vaporization, simply being a term for all covering flames. But even if it did, that only matters for “The Target” which in this case was Kakashi, a human. The best you could really do here is use the standard value for vaporization of a person, unless you want to argue that whatever Sasuke targets will be engulfed in flames simply because “The databook said so”

Part 1 Scaling:
While that might still be a controversial topic for people here, there’s some other things about this that bother me, namely, why does anyone scale to this either way? First of all, Sasuke is the strongest genin of his class by a long shot, yet characters like Ino and Sakura still somehow scale to his strongest jutsu? On that note, Sasuke himself shouldn’t even scale to it, there is no reason to believe that he has physicals even close to this, he’s only ever used it on opponents far stronger than him, and even then he pretty much always missed. Just because he attacks with Chakra doesn’t mean it's as potent as this, otherwise what would even be the point of using it in the first place?

Here Kakashi notes that no genin should be capable of this, and shows visible surprise even after Sasuke impressed him earlier and stated that he was "different" from Naruto and Sakura. Whatever the concensus becomes on the validity of the fireball calc, there is no good reason for people outside of Sasuke to get it listed on their profile.



Sasuke kicks a bear:
This is the second feat that justifies 8-B Sasuke and likewise there are some problems, problems, one of which was mentioned in the comments to the calc itself, yet never elaborated upon afterwards (As far as I can tell), that being its size.
There are only two panels of the bear in question, and they paint entirely different pictures of its size, one is a good dozen times larger than a normal one, while the currently accepted one is 38 meters. While the first one isn’t super intuitive to calculate, it’s obvious that its nowhere near that large, and the one we actually scale from is an obviously exaggerated impact frame that scales the bear's nose to Sasuke. The first image seems like a less convoluted and exaggerated way of scaling it.

The second problem I have with it is scaling Sasuke to the bears top Kinetic Energy. As far as I understand this is done because apparently bears can survive ramming into each other at full speed, which is fair I guess, but ramming into other soft creatures doesn’t exactly work the same way as running into a concrete wall for example, which I don’t think they would be able to do. And even if they could, the calc in question directly scales the bears speed by the size increase, which doesn’t make sense. A larger bear would be much slower and unlike the Naruto stopping a snake calc, this one has no justification whatsoever for scaling linearly in speed.



Jirobo lifting Choji:
These first two have been rather long winded, but this one is quite simple. Currently Jirobo scales to Town Level through lifting a giant Choji. The way Giant Choji’s size is calced is, however, quite flawed. It uses an “Average Tree Width” of 2.5m, and gives that value to a nearby tree, then scaling that to Choji’s finger. The problem here is that that tree is nowhere near 2.5m wide. Just to prove a point, Jirobo is 1.81m tall, and in this panel he is standing quite a long bit away from the tree with his lower legs and feet not even being visible, yet he is still twice the size of this tree, if that tree was 2.5m wide, then Jirobo would be over 5 meters….I don’t think I need to explain that any further.

(I actually found out that there has been a CRT for this feat before and even a calculation for it, but it seems to have been forgotten or something, hopefully this will kickstart something.)




The Solution:
Now, obviously these people need new feats to scale to, otherwise we would have a whole bunch of people with an “Unknown” status. I am new to the wiki and am not exactly a “calc guy” but I do have a few suggestions for feats, those being:
 
I agree with the arguments you brought up regarding Sasuke's fireball, also the verse is no longer a UES verse as well, so if there's no good justification for scaling that jutsu to Sasuke's physicals then it should be removed on those grounds.

Regarding the bear calc, we don't have to get rid of the feat entirely, we can just average the two bear sizes and redo the calc with the averaged size. Also, as for why we treat larger sized animals as faster, there's definitely some kind of thread about that, but tmk that's just a vsbw standard of practice.

As for the Jirobo calc, I think it might be best to compare a few more tree widths to his size, since a single tree (which could be an outlier) doesn't inherently debunk all tree sizes. But if the calc is using that very tree that is blatantly smaller than Jirobo, then yeah it needs to be updated for sure.
 
Yeah, the point of this CRT isn't to outright abandon the feats in question but simply the currently accepted calculations and scaling that is derived from them. Altough I suspect that things like Sasuke's bear feat and Jirobo throwing Choji won't be all that impressive when taking these things into account, which is why I added some extra feats at the end there. If necessary I suppose I could redo the calculations myself, but it would be preferable to have someone a bit more qualified.
 
Yeah, I did send them in the thread but they haven't gotten accepted yet. I just wanted to make it clear that they are done and that I didn't just abandon this thread. Sorry if I wasn't supposed to do that.
 
question why didn't you just average the size between the two sizes as oppose to you using a overhead rear shot of the bear?

you mentioned we shouldn't use the impact frame because its an exaggeration ?, based on what, we only have two reference points and conventional wisdom should tell you the calc that actually contains the feat should take precedence, on top of that using a hypothetical intent for why we shouldn't use something isnt a strong argument, because my counter would be that the other panel is an establishing shot that requires the bear to be smaller and fit in the frame while allowing the reader a clear a cohesive understanding of what the relevant environment and characters are, this goes doubly so when there's a limit amount of panels (two) to let the reader know whats going on.
 
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I suppose I could use the average size but I heavily disagree with it, I have yet to see any calculation utilize this method and it seems like it would just give out skewed numbers, but I can't stop anyone from doing it if they want to.

As for the other point, this is a manga and the impact frame of Sasuke hitting the bear is, like a lot of visual mediums, utilizing visual exaggeration to create dramatic effect (I mean just look at the bears face) instead of providing an actual accurate scale. The frame I used is the establishing shot which in general terms would be a more accurate way to scale it's size, as the whole purpose of an establishing shot is to give us a clear and consistent view of characters and the environment, which would include proportional accuracy.

At the same time, it seems to be very common on this site to use the anime version of events to fill in blanks that the manga doesn't cover, timeframes being an obvious example. Following this same logic, the anime gives us better angles, showing that it's not close to the currently accepted size. I actually believe the anime would be a better way of scaling if I were to redo the calculation as it actually gives us the bears full size in relation to Karin instead of us scaling a nose or a paw and furthering that to it's size.
 
There is also the Base FOD Naruto feat of him getting smacked by Orochimaru's snake that I'm pretty sure yielded 8A
 
There is also the Base FOD Naruto feat of him getting smacked by Orochimaru's snake that I'm pretty sure yielded 8A
I assume this is the one you're talking about? I have my doubts that will get accepted. I know you weren't the one who made the calculation but there are problems with it. 1. The calc assumes that the snake blitzed Naruto when there really isn't any evidence for that, he clearly reacted "!!" before it managed to hit him, he even got 2 panels.

2. Im not fully certain that it even hit him at all. The way I read it, Naruto managed to jump away from it hence this circle, I fail to see how that would indicate him being hit. The way he is shooting away also makes me belive that that's what happened. Altough this im not entirely sure of.

3. For Kinetic Energy calcs you need to consider if the object stops in its path or continues onward, in this scenario Naruto flies away and the Snake keeps moving so even if it did hit him he wouldn't have been taking the full impact.

4. The calc uses another snake's tail-to-head ratio to figure out it's width for future scaling when it would be much better to use Naruto himself for this, going by the current calculation, Naruto would have an arm around 1.45m long, that's pretty much his entire Part 1 height.
 
I assume this is the one you're talking about? I have my doubts that will get accepted
the calc was already accepted
I know you weren't the one who made the calculation but there are problems with it. 1. The calc assumes that the snake blitzed Naruto when there really isn't any evidence for that, he clearly reacted "!!" before it managed to hit him, he even got 2 panels.
the calc assumes he got blitzed, not perception blitzed. KT even says that in the calc.

"Using the highest peak human reaction time, 0.08 seconds, since Naruto (a superhuman) got blitzed by the snake, but not perception blitzed,"

perception blitzed is not being able to perceive its movement at all which is what you are referring to, just being blitzed means not being able to make any movements in time. which is what happened here.
2. Im not fully certain that it even hit him at all. The way I read it, Naruto managed to jump away from it hence this circle, I fail to see how that would indicate him being hit. The way he is shooting away also makes me belive that that's what happened. Altough this im not entirely sure of.
Considering in the full panels Naruto gets sent into a tree and spits out blood I doubt it

also in the anime, he gets hit.
 
I didn't mean it like that. Obiously he gets sent flying, I just interpreted it as him not being hit but just jumping away really fast and not exactly having control over where he landed. I do concede on that point (It wasn't anything big either way). The rest however seems like fair problems to me however.
 
the calc assumes he got blitzed, not perception blitzed. KT even says that in the calc.

"Using the highest peak human reaction time, 0.08 seconds, since Naruto (a superhuman) got blitzed by the snake, but not perception blitzed,"

perception blitzed is not being able to perceive its movement at all which is what you are referring to, just being blitzed means not being able to make any movements in time. which is what happened here.
Yes, but you need to prove that he got blitzed. As far as I can tell there is nothing indicating that Naruto got blitzed, the events happen as follows. Orochimaru summons the snake, creating a shockwave which sends Naruto back. Naruto now has no momentum and is stuck in the air. The snake attacks Naruto with its tail (Which Naruto sees). I just don't see how this qualifies as "blitzing" in any way. The only way I can imagine this being a blitz is due to the snake having blurs on it when it attacks, which to me is a rather flimsy reason for using peak human reaction time.

Either way I don't think we should continue this discussion here, as it's mainly about the Jirobo and Sasuke feats.
 
Yes, but you need to prove that he got blitzed. As far as I can tell there is nothing indicating that Naruto got blitzed,
him not being able to react or move despite knowing that the snake tail was coming is all you need,

you don't need to prove anything if you see him unable to physically react on panel.
the events happen as follows. Orochimaru summons the snake, creating a shockwave which sends Naruto back. Naruto now has no momentum and is stuck in the air. The snake attacks Naruto with its tail (Which Naruto sees). I just don't see how this qualifies as "blitzing" in any way. The only way I can imagine this being a blitz is due to the snake having blurs on it when it attacks, which to me is a rather flimsy reason for using peak human reaction time.
your definition of blitz is not the wikis definition of blitz

you're thinking of being perception blitzed which even the calc creator acknowledges is not the case.
Either way I don't think we should continue this discussion here, as it's mainly about the Jirobo and Sasuke feats.
a portion of this thread was dedicated to what will replace the old calcs,

removing calcs that are the main parts of the verse and not prepping replacements is unwise.

which is why I brought up currently accepted calcs
 
I feel like you don't really understand what im trying to say. Naruto was stuck in the air and had just lost all of his momentum, there was no way for him to avoid the attack, he could be 1000x faster but would still be unable to do a thing. By the way the Wiki's definition of a blitz is.

Speed Blitz is the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them. Blitzing is different than outpacing, where a character is simply faster than the other. A blitz is more like an all around outclassing in speed.
How exactly does this not correlate with what I said.

And no one has as of yet been able to explain the glaring mathematical issues and scaling that the calculation uses. Altough I suppose I should take that up with the creator and those who accepted it.
 
I feel like you don't really understand what im trying to say. Naruto was stuck in the air and had just lost all of his momentum
what does being stuck in the air have to do with moving his arms to block?
there was no way for him to avoid the attack
but he can block
he could be 1000x faster but would still be unable to do a thing. By the way the Wiki's definition of a blitz is.
Speed Blitz is the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them.

Perceiving or Reacting is the main point, because there is more than one level to blitzing
 
I feel like you don't really understand what im trying to say. Naruto was stuck in the air and had just lost all of his momentum, there was no way for him to avoid the attack, he could be 1000x faster but would still be unable to do a thing. By the way the Wiki's definition of a blitz is.


How exactly does this not correlate with what I said.

And no one has as of yet been able to explain the glaring mathematical issues and scaling that the calculation uses. Altough I suppose I should take that up with the creator and those who accepted it.
To be fair Naruto could've done something like make a shadow clone to throw himself out of the way or at least try to block with his arms
 
To avoid any more back and forth, I concede entirely on the point of speed blitzing. I don't have the energy for it and since im outnumbered it seems like the fair thing to do.
 
So has this been accepted yet, or is everyone waiting for more staff members? Oof on Land of Waves to Chunin Exam characters getting downgraded to 9-A, but at the same time, I finally have matchups in mind I can finally do for early Naruto series
 
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