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7-A+, High 7-A+ and 6-C for some characters (again...)

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I'm not saying his two day training would be enough to overcome the increase. I'm saying that, since Baam didn't actually fight against Hoaqin head to head during the dallar arc, that the scaling we already have is actually already correct. Hoaqin may indeed scale to current Baam, but since Dallar Arc Baam didn't fight him at full strength until after he achieved the power of souls, no one scales to White during that arc.

True. Though true self mode sounds too clunky. Maybe "Power of self" or something of the sort will suffice until we get a name. Though it's not too big a deal. Hopefully the form will get a name eventually.
 
I know that Baam before the Power of Souls did not fight face to face with 3 Soul Merged Hoaqin, but that he at least made him speak a "Ugh" when Hoaqin was on low guard after absorbing the souls of his three brothers.

Power of Self sounds like a good name.

So do you think the scale that I have proposed is correct or should we discuss something that should be changed?
 
I still disagree with the scale. Also, in chapter 185, they literally say that White has yet to reach full power as he has only absorbed two souls, and on top of that, those souls are fighting against White, making him even weaker. And, on top of that, Baam had some help from his friends during that fight. So, my previous point about the two of them not having a proper confrontation until Baam actually obtains the power of souls still stands. Meaning that I'm fine with upgrading White, but he is the only one who would scale. However, I'd rather wait until we see some actual feats from White in terms of him fighting Baam or something on, or above that level.
 
Well, but even so Baam with Thorn Boost made 2 Soul Merged Hoaqin say a "Ugh" making Hoaqin seem to have received some damage from the Baam and Hoaqin punch before he had received 2 souls from his brothers and then absorbed the soul of Vincente and it seems that before absorbing the soul of Vincente Hoaqin would have absorbed most of powers to almost reach the 6-C or 2 Soul Merged Hoaqin is a High 7-A+ and Baam with Thorn Boost should also be a High 7-A+ to have made Hoaqin who had almost reached Tier 6-C and should not be too far away, although Hoaqin at that time was on low guard, indicating that he even damaged him and narrowly climbed Baam before Thorn Boost being weaker or comparable to Base Maschenny which is a High 7-A+ or 2.89 Gigatons, thus making others being comparable or superior to that Baam like the characters I put on Thread and Hoaqin recognizes that Baam with Thorn Boost may be a potential opponent to Baam.
 
Do you know that the damage to characters in Tower of God is inconsistent? For he remembers that Ran and Novick were hit hard by the five Baangs of Baam and they had no damage, or that Ba'am had been hit by a direct attack of Reflejo and seemed to have received great damage, but only his clothes tore, and this fight between Baam and Soul 3 Merged Hoaqin may have had the same problems as the fights I quoted, and you remember that Hoaqin even receiving a direct blow from the Baam (Power of Souls) sword showed us that he later became no scratching, while Baam's punch made him spit blood which makes no sense, and this may have clearly been one of ToG's problems in the inconsistency of the characters, not seeming to have taken no damage.

Baam before the Power of Souls boost received a direct attack from Hoaqin and without any damage and Hoaqin recognized him as impressive, and a 6-C should not find a 7-C that tanked his attack of special technique as impressive, and if Baam who at that time was supposedly a 7-C had achieved it would not have tanked consegudio that Hoaqin attack that at that time should be a 6-C, indicating that Baam with Thorn Boost is comparable to Base Maschenny which is a High 7-A+ and 3 Soul Merged Hoaqin himself uses his sword to defend himself from "Waves of Peacock Wings" and "The Maelstrom" of Baam, and a 6-C should not defend himself against an attack of a supposed 7-C because if Hoaqin really considered that these special techniques of Baam did not suffer at least a little damage it would simply withstand without any scratching, since a 6-C can tanked without any damage from a 7-C attack, but that was not the case, Hoaqin had to use his sword to defend himself from the spec Baam, thus further reinforcing the backscaling I proposed.

Chapter 392 Spoiler:

Beta managed to play 3 Soul Merged Hoaqin away, so I think we can put Baam (Dallar Show Arc) with Thorn Boost as a High 7-A+ being superior to Beta who managed to play 3 Soul Hoaqin away.
 
My largest thing, is that you keep using tiers, as opposed to actually looking objectively at what happened in the story itself. What occurred?

Bamm used "Waves of Peacock Wings" and "The Maelstrom" against White. White used his swordsmanship to disperse of the attacks without taking any real damage. During their next actual fight, Baam has the power of souls on his side. And is capable of hurting White. And, while perhaps his sword attack didn't hurt him, what's important is that it overwhelmed White's attack. Which is the reason why White didn't take much damage from it, as his own energy mostly shielded him, whereas Baam's punch was a clean hit.

Canonically, why would a weakened version of White be equal to a version of Zahard that cleared the Hell Train? From a canon standpoint, such logic doesn't make sense either, unless White gained back more of his power from back then, which is very well possible seeing as how he absorbed Prince's soul. Not the best, no, but still far better than nothing, or a few dozen fodder souls.

2 souls merged Hoaqin is not comparable to one soul merged. It is implied that his power increases heavily with each clone he absorbs, so attempting to compare various forms of him simply doesn't really work, in particular not for the scaling you're going for, which centers around 3 souls merged Hoaqin.

Also, given that Baam got stronger after his battle against White, it would mean that Kaiser may or may not be stronger than White. Now, let's assume that White actually is deserving of this scaling, he would be the only one who scales to it (As well as power of souls Baam) simply because Baam could only truly take him on, by himself, with a MASSIVE power boost. Admittedly, it does canonically make sense for Kaiser to be weaker than White, so, even if I were to agree that White should receive such scaling (Which I won't until I see the feats), then it would only scale to him, as only Baam with the power of souls could actually do anything against him.
 
I mean, we should always base ourselves on Tiers as they are more important on this Wiki, and why looking at the side of history would make a difference while continuing to use Tier? this does not change that a Tier 7 should not be able to force a Tier 6 to reflect its attack, but that it would be able to tank these their techniques without any damage. Once again use the example of the Soldiers of Alvarez and Natsu: Natsu who at the time was stronger than 61 Megatons, was forced and put on the defensive because of some Low 7-B, so why can not we do the same with Baam and 3 Soul Merged Hoaqin just like they did with Natsu and the Alvarez Soldiers? For 3 Soul Merged Hoaqin (as in Natsu's case) was forced to put himself on the defensive against the Baam techniques (which is the same as the Alvarez Soldiers). And this is literally the case of Baam with Thorn Boost and 3 Soul Merge Hoaqin is the same case as Natsu and the Alvarez Soldiers.

But literally, why would Hoaqin, who was supposed to be a 6-C, defend himself or reflect on two techniques of Baam's supposed 7-C in that epoch? If Hoaqin really did not think that this technique would not at least hurt him he should not have blocked these techies but simply resisted them with complete confidence since if Baam really was a supposed 7-C a 6-C as Hoaqin should not having used his sword to block it, I would only accept Hoaqin being a 6-C defending from a 7-C attack if he was extremely weakened, but that was not the case, Hoaqin was Full Power at that moment without any tiredness and does not meaning he reflected two special techniques of a 7-C when he was a supposed 6-C in relation to you speaking that Hoaqin did not suffer damage from Baam's epsada because it was his power but this could be once again you one of the examples that I showed you the inconsistency with the combat damage in Tower of God? Baam vs. Novick and Ran: Baam used his five Baangs to do a direct hit on both and looking at them, it looks like they did not get any damage but only the clothes a bit ripped, Reflection vs Baam, Aguero and Rak: Baam was hit by one of Reflejo's most powerful blows to the point of being cast away and screams in pain, but he raises and so appears without any damage, but with his clothes a little torn.

Well, I'm not comparing 3 Soul Merged Hoaqin to Zahard Data, because clearly their difference is great, but remember I gave several examples of why Baam left Androssi to take care of Hoaqin for a while so he did not disrupt his personal affairs with Rachel, and at that moment Baam is a 6-C, and clearly should not worry about a 7-C being a problem.

Yes, I know Hoaqin's power is to get stronger by eating souls, but the only soul we saw him eat was Prince's, and you know that the stronger the soul that Hoaqin eats, the stronger he gets, and you remember Hoaqin's reaction to discover that there are several Rankers souls on the Floor of Death reinforcing even more what I said, and Prince did not serve to give a boost in Hoaqin, but rather because he was hungry, and we can not assuming that Hoaqin was eating souls during the Hell Train exams because he was not quoted or shown without being off-screen, but how can we assume that Vincente was the strongest of his brothers to jump from 7-C to 6-C?

So tell me why and how a supposed 7-C Baam could make a 6-C reflect on your attack? For clearly assumed 6-C as was the case of the 3 Soul Merged Hoaqin, at least you need to be a High 7-A+ to make a 6-C fend off your attack.
 
I literally haven't made reference to Hoaqin eating anyone's souls aside from Prince. And the souls he got from the floor of death were forcibly removed from him.

Let's backtrack to the beginning. We haven't actually SEEN Hoaqin fight current Baam. And Androssi's current tier is unquantifiable. As it stands right now, we're clearly not going to agree. While I understand that Hoaqin shouldn't have to defend against any of Baam's attacks, the point is that he did so casually, exerting little effort, and remained unscathed. That is objectively what happened. The fact that Hoaqin even felt the need to defend against it, is likely PIS, as Baam literally got stronger right before the next arc, and went on to defeat Kaiser, whom was presumably stronger than that, and, iirc, this was before he learned the shinsoo black hole sphere, where he would've gotten even stronger from the training he had experienced then.

Until I see Hoaqin actually match up with current Baam, I am not going to change my mind. Him fighting Androssi, or being tricked by Beta, does not help his case here. While some of your points may hold some merit, I do not view them as sufficient enough to conclude that Hoaqin should be at such a level when he has literally zero feats of being at said level, in particular since the power of souls is an unquantifiable boost that only White himself would scale to. Regardless, Baam himself was only 7-C at that point, so Hoaqin merely swinging his blade in Baam's direction should have killed him, but it didn't. For Hoaqin to be massively stronger than everyone else up until this point means he should have been slaughtering them, yet he didn't. It's always a better idea to wait for tangible feats before assuming statements to be true, or, in this case, assuming based upon statements.
 
I know that the souls that Hoaqin devoured in the Floor of Death were removed.

Yes, but it does not change the fact that because Androssi that was supposed to be stronger than a Low 7-B was talking about a 7-C as Hoaqin was a monster, and that Baam in the present is a 6-C not considered a threat he might have gone there simply without the help of Androssi, since a 6-C like he should not worry about a 7-C upsetting, but that was not the case if the only argument you can use PIS as an excuse not to update them, remember once again the case of Fairy Tail in this Wiki, everyone used the excuse that it was PIS no good argument, after several conversations it was accepted that they podussem update some characters, we can do the same with ToG instead of using PIS as an excuse not to upgrade, and I've given examples of Alvarez soldiers and Natsu that was identical to the case of Baarn and Hoaqin, why can not we do the same with ToG? And again it would not be an inconsistent or meaningless backscaling as we have Base Maschenny which is a High 7-A+ and we can use examples of some characters being 3X weaker than her or being comparable to her.

Of course, a 7-C able to throw away a 6-C is very funny lol, but that does not change the fact that I have said several times why a supposed 7-C like Baam would do a 6-C like 3 Soul Merged Hoaqin reflect your attacks? In these two techniques Baam had no power to deny durability in order to force 3 Soul Merged Hoaqin to reflect his attacks, I already gave him several talents from Baam group and Rachel's group, as Yura manages to force a 6-C as Baam to himself dodge from her attack or Beta having managed to throw Hoaqin away, but you simply ignore them and treat them like PIS.
 
Imma try to sum it up.

Essentially, Baam hurting 3 merged souls White (Which itself is debatable) without the power of souls boost, has to be PIS by default merely because the power of souls, which was a MASSIVE boost, was explicitly needed to do damage to Hoaqin, or at least be relative to him. Note how Baam was about to die from one of Hoaqin's serious attacks before Anna saved him. And it is also for this reason that even if we decide that White is High 7-A, only he would scale, as a previously unquantifiable, MASSIVE power boost was needed to damage him. I'm not ignoring them, but rather giving a logical explanation as to why it would be PIS if Baam managed to hurt him before the power of souls boost.

On a note about Androssi, we still don't know how strong she really is. She lost to Kaiser, and has been unquantifiable ever since. I'm also unsure if she's actually seen White engage in battle before, so she may be working off rumors, or things she's heard from Khun if they told her the events of the Dallar Show.

Lastly, I can see, logically, why White would be such a tier. Yet I still don't see anyone else scaling for the reasons I mentioned above. Baam needed no such massive, unquantifiable amps until his battle with Data Zahard.
 
(It seems that this problem of the comment does not appear not only happens with me in this Wiki)

Well, if Baam was at least able to force a 6-C to reflect his two Shinsoo techniques he should be a High 7-A+ being comparable or not much weaker than Data Maschenny Base, Baam at that moment he was about to die , he was also very tired because he had not rested right after receiving the Thorn Boost while Hoaqin was strengthened with the souls of his brothers, and Baam only worsened his own situation because he saved the lives of his enemies and was worn and hoop Hoaqin comments this and even Baam was able to tanked a hit of 3 Soul Merged Hoaqine while he was very tired and until Hoaqin found it impressive Baam had continued to stay alive after his attack ie I find no sense Baam as a very tired 7-C having managed to make a 6-C as 3 Soul Merged Hoaqin defend themselves from their attack, because in the two techniques of Baam had no ability or hax so that Hoaqin would reflect the two techniques of Baam. And it would not be a meaningless or inconsistent backscaling as we have Maschenny with an example of High 7-A+ to be able to use compared to the Baam (Dallar Show Arc) and the Redan multipliers I mentioned earlier. And I've also given examples of Natsu and the Alvarez Soldiers that although Natsu is a City level + stronger than 61 Megatons he was put on defensive by Low 7-B who are stronger than Precht, and the same case was with Baam and 3 Soul Merged Hoaqin, with Baam (who in this case would be the Alvarez Soldiers) and Hoaqin (as in this case would be Natsu), ie we can put the Baam (Dallar Show Arc) as High 7-A + for having placed 3 Soul Merged Hoaqin which is a 6-C in the defesiva even when tired.

It was said by Baam and Kaiser that Androssi only lost for lack of knowledge of her abilities, and Baam and Kaiser even confirm that during the fight that Andorssi only lost because she was very confident (even because she is one of the people with overconfidence in ToG and besides she is a Princessa Zahard so one would expect this ...)

I was thinking of putting 3 Soul Merged Hoaqin as 6-C baseline until he faces Baam or defeats him at the current time as I think it's safer. Baam with his standard form received very large amplifiers against Zahard Date because he before getting the new form he was stomped by Data Zahard several times without having a real chance to attack and Zahard was not using White Lecalicus but after using the Enryu's Thorn Ignition easily hurt him and easily destroy The Cosmos in one hit, so the amplifiers of the Battle of Baam against Hoaqin and Zahard were very large.
 
I mean, Kaiser still defeated Androssi though, meaning Kaiser still could harm Androssi to the point of defeating her, as Kaiser has no real offensive hax.

But that still misses the point. The point is that Baam needed a MASSIVE power amp in order to defeat White, so it doesn't make sense that he would truly be able to harm White earlier. Not to mention the fact that White wasn't going all out, mostly joking around and only going down to spite Bam as opposed to really trying to win.

I'd also like a scan (not from chapter 185, where Baam required help from his friends and was shown as clearly inferior to White), but from when 3 souls merged Hoaqin and Baam "fought" and it was said that Baam was tired and not in a good state. Which would only add more to the evidence of Baam being able to hurt White without the power of souls as PIS< as he was previously shown an inability to do such before White was at fully power, and, iirc, he didn't receive any major power increases between these two encounters. However, even if he had, the fact still remains that a MASSIVE power boost was needed to actually deal somewhat significant damage to White. If Baam could deal damage without such a powerup, or could truly take on White's attacks, then he wouldn't have been in danger from taking the first of White's more serious attacks. But, in fact, the moment White got even remotely serious, Baam's life was saved, and he was given the power of souls. Hence, White is the only one who can possibly scale to a High 7-A, or 6-C Hidden Floor Arc Baam.
 
(That's why now I'm typing in Notepad to then do Control C and Control V to not lose what I wrote, maybe you should try the same)

Well, Androssi seems to have lost to Kaiser by chance of the fate of knowledge and the difference in abilities of the two.

Well, while Hoaqin was playing with Baam, Baam was not in the best of conditions at that moment because Hoaqin mentions that Baa's fatigue is perceptible and that he has no strength and yet he can withstand Hoaqin's attack and then put him in the defensive.

(I do not remember anything relevant between Baam and Hoaqin during the Dallar Arc show), Baam was tired, yes, but he still managed to put 6-C Hoaqin temporarily on the defensive using the techniques he copied ho Yu Han Sung and even Hoaqin stayed surreal, Baam before even "fighting" against 2 Soul Merged Hoaqin was tired and even he mentally commented on it then Baam and also he managed to withstand Hoaqin's attacks and he appeared to be without noticeable damage thus putting his durability as High 7- A+

Want to know, let's wait for the next chapters if Baam and Hoaqin will face each other so we can comment on that.
 
(Good Idea. Copying it before posting)

Yeah, I'm just saying that Androssi and Kaiser are in the same tier. Androssi still lost, regardless of the reason. But yeah, she only lost due to the surprise factor, but I mean, that's part of a fight.

Yeah, I think waiting is the best.
 
Setting strength aside, how about speed? Shouldn't most characters be upgraded to MHS+? Anyone just 20% faster than workshop battle arc Anak would qualify.
 
Wow, that's a nice upgrade, than you.

I'll have to go back and reread that portion, I'm not sure if it was his presence or one of his attacks that shook the floor.

Though, does the hidden floor count as one of the floors of the tower?
 
It was when he was charging endless sky.

It's a virtual floor, but it shouldn't be that different.

By the way, going off the explanations about minus tendency and plus tendency, wouldn't it be possible for Baam and Zahard to be 90.3 gigatons with their ultimates given that Zahard matched Baam's triple orb?
 
Oh, you're right. Similar to his Name Hunt station feat.

That's fair enough.

The orb wasn't state to multiply Baam's power in such a linear fashion, so I don't believe it would work.
 
I'm talking about SIU's blog posts, basically people without minus tendency can keep making bangs without them getting weaker, and people with plus tendency actually get stronger bangs when they make more. Since Baam is an extremely talented wave controller, his minus tendency should be low or non-existent, ie: His additional bangs would be just as strong as the original.
 
But how do we know the attack potency of each one? And how can we assume that they're even additive like that?

That's like saying each of a character's punches exerts 1 megaton of force. So if they unleash a flurry of 1000 punches are they now the next tier up? Or if they punch with both hands at the same time, their attack potency doubles? While I can understand the logic, I don't think that's actually how it works, and I don't believe the calculations support this regardless.

Would you be able to link SIU's blog post with regards to this please? It hasn't been explained in verse iirc.
 
I'm mulling it over in my head, and while that makes logical sense, the example you've given isn't an equivalent. Jin Mo-Ri took out 200 quadrillion of Satan's clones in one shot, meaning one attack, which is different from Baam creating three orbs containing shinsu black hole spheres. Even still, we don't have enough evidence to say that Baangs would multiply his stats in such a linear fashion. The difference between three and four baangs is their number, as opposed to their attack potency, which varies based upon the individual.

This kind of logic also seems like something we don't use for any character who can use multiple of the same kind of ragned attack. Take Han Jee-Ha for example, who has practically infinite spinning mana arrows. His attack potency isn't approaching infinity merely because each of his 8-A to Low 7-C arrows all add up in attack potency, even if they're used to attack a singular place.
 
Baam was able to combine the three of them into a single attack, though. Even if it isn't a straight upgrade, it should at least warrant a likely or possibly.

Another example then, All Might's Prime is rated 60x higher than his present state since he compares 5 punches back then to over 300 right now. Since Remnant of Stars: Stardust is 3 orbs combined, it should similarly have triple the AP.
 
I guess I do see your point, though it still feels far more indirect than either of the two examples you've presented. In particular since more baangs doesn't mean an increase in strength, but merely an increase in quantity of attacks.

I think a possibly is fine.
 
We're not going to backscale Baam as of the current moment. At least until we see him and White fighting on even terms.

Baam and Data Zahard have received a small upgrade due to Jobbo's calculation.
 
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