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King Sombra vs. Starswirl the Bearded (Concluded)

Sombra. He effortlessly took control of Starlight and was stated to be so powerful that without the Elements of Harmony or power of friendship, the entire Mane 6 couldn't beat him. Keep in mind that Starswirl was stated to only be slightly stronger than Twilight, and Starlight is roughly equal to her.
 
Starswirl banishes Sombra and lets the Humane 7 deal with him. His mind control involves a very dodgeable projectile in the shape of his eyes.
 
I know Starswirl was said to be the most powerful unicorn in history, but very few ponies knew about the Crystal Empire or King Sombra. Even Celestia stated that her knowledge was limited. Starswirl meanwhile was Celestias mentor for a time, and was the very well known. Keep in mind that Twilight was said to be nearly as powerful as Starswirl, and Starlight is roughly comparable to her in power. For comparisons sake, Sombra effortlessly mindcontrold Starlight along with all of Ponyville, and Twilight stated that she and the rest of the Mane 6 wouldn't be able to beat him without the elements. Yes, I do know they beat him in the end, but that was only because of the Power of Friendship, something Starswirl wouldn't have access to.
 
Cool. He controlled Starlight. Doesn't mean he'll get Starswirl. And Twilight can't perform interdimensional banishment. Know who can?
 
Sombra's limited backstory and appearances are not helping his case. His profile need work too. I've had to add some obvious abilities to his profile just now: Energy Projection and Crystal Manipulation.

Does Starswirl have a counter to Mind Manipulation?
 
Firestorm808 said:
Does Starswirl have a counter to Mind Manipulation?
Click to expand...
Not really shown it. Well, if there is a spell to it, then he should have it, but I can't find such a spell. But do you think Sombra starts with mind control?
 
Phoenix821 said:
He tends to use Mind control a lot.
Click to expand...
Well, after he "wounded" Discord, he never used it. He didn't even try to use it on Discord, as I recall.
 
Was it ever in a fight? I mean, it should be, but I don't remember this ever happening.
 
Yes when he attacked the Crystal empire in S9 he immediately put Mind control helmets on the guards, and when the girls showed up he immediately tried using mind control.
 
Oh yeah. Still can't really figure out, how he starts the fights. He uses it half of a time. But okay.
 
But why not try to use it on Discord itself? He even sees that hes blasts don't do a thing, but continues. Weird king.
 
Well, while I am still siding with Sombra for now, I will admit that while the power scaling would put Sombra above Starswirl, at the same time, Starswirl should be more experienced, given that he appears far older than him physically (I know both have been locked away for over a thousand years in which they didn't age, but Starswirl looks much physically older and thus has likely been practicing far longer). This could make it a battle of skill vs strength. They also both have ways to net an instant win (Sombra through mind control and Starswitl through banishment). This could come down to a few questions: Who will try their ace in the whole first, will strength or skill prevail, and will Sombra's overconfidence get the best of him?

Examining it from these different angles makes me feel like I'm playing checkers or chess.
 
The opponenet needs to be tricked or fall into Starswirl's BFR. It has no sucking force, just a hole.

Can Sombra alternate between pony and smoke form for flight?
 
As much as i want Starswirl to win, it took him and 5 other Unicorn's to raise the Sun each day, Celestia could do it by herself and it took both her and Luna to beat Sombra, not to mention like others have said, he can turn into Smoke and use Mind Control, so Sombra has my vote
 
I still don't think Sombra can mind control Starswirl that easily. How the heck he hit Starlight with a projectile that slow, I have no clue, but there's no reason to assume Starswirl can't get out of the way.
 
The Pony of Shadows also states that Twilight is almost as strong as Starswirl and its made clear during the S9 Premiere that Twilight doesn't stand a chance against Sombra on her own
 
Season 3:

  • The Crystal Empire - Celestia and Luna couldn't defeat Sombra alone.
Season 7:

  • Horse Play - Starswirl needed help moving the Sun. Celestia can move the sun without draining her magic. Is the untrained Celestia cutie mark Hax or actual AP?
    • Fluttershy: And every day, the unicorns helping Star Swirl would use so much magic, they lost their powers forever. Things looked bleak. Soon, Equestria would lose all its magic users! Then, the land would be covered in darkness for eternity!
    • Fluttershy: But then, a student named Celestia discovered she had the power to raise the sun herself without draining her magic!
  • Shadow Play - The Pony of Shadows states that Twilight is almost as strong as Starswirl
    • Pony of Shadows: Argh! This one is almost as... strong as you, Star Swirl. But even in my weakened state, she cannot stop the might of shadows!
Season 9:

  • The Beginning of the End - Starswirl more than capable taming the Everfree forest, more effectively than Twilight.
    • Star Swirl: Don't be. I've more than enough magic in me to keep the Everfree Forest under control.
    • Star Swirl: The Pillars and I planted the Tree of Harmony. Who do you think kept the Forest under control before it did?
Conclusions:

S7-9 Twilight (Mental limits) < Starswirl = Celestia < Sombra = S9 Twilight (True potential)

To me, it only makes sense if Twilight overcame her mental barrier to use the power she always had. Her attack against the Pony of Shadows was not her true limit.
 
Um no? Sombra is not > Celestia, she had him in a deadlock in the war timeline. Celestia couldn't defeat Sombra, but neither could Sombra defeat Celestia.

We all know about Celestia being able to Raise the Sun on her own without help compared to Starswirl.

Mental limits? Are you implying that Twilight was undergoing mental limits at the time of facing the PoS? I'm sorry, but that is headcanon. There's a strong argument that mental limits held back Twilight when she faced against Sombra, but absolutely not in Shadow Play. And Twilight is not = Sombra. She is very close to his power while still beneath him. She beam clashed with him 4 times, and 3 out of 4 times she struggled with his beams. The first nearly knocked her over, the second pushed her back a bit, and the fourth she was clearly struggling with (even grunting in effort) and had the lower hand before the Magic of Friendship kicked in. The sole time she clashed beams with Sombra and had no problems was the third clash, and that can easily be called an outlier because of how effortless it was in comparison to the other 3 times.

Tl;Dr Twilight is close to Sombra in power not equal to him. That would imply superiority to Celestia, whom in your own words is < Sombra. The only reason I argue for Starswirl despite Twilight, Starlight, and the sisters is because he has an ability that allows him to deal with Sombra, whereas none of the other 4 do. At least not to my knowledge.
 
Forgot about the war timeline. Not including Twilight, its Starswirl < or = Celestia = Sombra

I did start my statement with "To me."

I'm not sure it can be called an outlier if it's in the same tier.
 
Firestorm808 said:
I'm not sure it can be called an outlier if it's in the same tier.
Click to expand...
Of course it is. Twilight may be in the same general tier as Sombra, but she struggles with all but one of his beams. You can't possibly say she can regularly and effortlessly swat away Sombra tier beams just because she did it one time while ignoring the other times she struggled, all within the eact same scene no less. The point is that Twilight is tier 4-C like Sombra, but is not as casual about it like he or the princesses are, that is to say: He's farther in the tier than she is and can perform feats of that level with greater ease.
 
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