4-B Kaguya (this is useless and I'm wasting my time 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥)

[Popbum]

Is ESTO destroying everything in the dimension or the dimension itself?

 

[Floxy178]

So assuming that Kaguya creating an Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb with an assumed radius 149 million kilometers over an assumed timeframe of 15 years

Aren't both of these minimal assumptions possible?
David even used below minimal

in a nutshell though I just don't buy the premise that because a Truth-Seeking Orb of a certain size contains a certain amount of power (a laughably low forest-busting amount) that means that means we can assume anything made of "Truth-Seeking Orb" substance contains a proportional amount of power to size.

That's a reasonable assumption. Because:
1. Minimal energy per volume value should exist.
2. There isn't any reason to assume that initial fist-sized TSB had more energy per volume than minimal needed.(since it's a EEing ball)

 

[karo_senpaii]

With the amount of "no one scales to ETSO kaguya " i've ever seen I would not have guessed that one day we would contest it being an outlier. Anyways I'm neutral on the thread

 

[Damage3245]

1.Strawman Fallacy: You're dismissing the idea of proportional scaling by mocking the "forest-busting" claim rather than addressing the actual point. The debate isn't about whether smaller TSOs are laughably weak; it's about whether Kaguya's Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb (ETSO) could logically scale in power based on its size and mechanics. You are Ignoring that core aspect of the argument. If the size of a fist contains x energy, then the size of a sun contains x energy.

My point wasn't that the energy inside normal Truth-Seeking Orbs was too low, but that there's nothing directly supporting the assumption of the mechanics involved here.

2. Argument from Personal Incredulity: Simply saying, "I don’t buy the premise" isn't a valid argument. You’re dismissing the proportional scaling claim without giving any logical reason or evidence to counter it. Just because you find it hard to believe doesn’t automatically make it wrong.

No kidding; of course it doesn't make it automatically wrong. I didn't write that as some kind of automatic debunk; I was explaining why I wasn't convinced by the OP and therefore cannot vote in favor of it.

3. Appeal to Ignorance:You argue that no one in the verse has shown Brown Dwarf Star-level chakra output, so it must not be true. Just because something hasn't been shown directly doesn’t mean it can’t exist within the verse’s most especially for a final attack of the final villain of a show(Naruto).You’re also ignoring the fact that Kaguya’s ETSO draws energy from the shinobi world. “By the way don't forget that right now Kaguya doesn't even scale to ETSO”.

It didn't say "it must not be true" anywhere in my post, did I? I have to consider based on what's presented in the OP and from my knowledge of the series whether it's likely or unlikely to be true and I'm not seeing enough evidence for me to consider it to be likely to be accurate.


I didn't say anywhere you had to agree with me; I'm sure plenty of people will be convinced that the assumptions in the OP are valid and there is nothing wrong with upgrading Kaguya's ETSO to that level. Doesn't mean I'm automatically convinced though.



If you want to go into fallacies that we can say that the OP is committing an Association Fallacy:

This is when someone claims that since A has certain qualities, and B is in some way associated with A, then B has those qualities as well, without actual proof of this.

Since Obito's & Naruto's Truth-Seeking Orbs has a certain quality (forest-busting power while they're the size of a fist), and Kaguya's ETSO is associated with them, then it automatically has the same level of power in each bit of its volume.

There's no actual proof that it definitely works like this as far as I can tell.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Since Obito's & Naruto's Truth-Seeking Orbs has a certain quality (forest-busting power while they're the size of a fist), and Kaguya's ETSO is associated with them, then it automatically has the same level of power in each bit of its volume.

There's no actual proof that it definitely works like this as far as I can tell.

I thought there was a statement that they were exactly the same asides from size difference.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I don't have a lot of time to commit to the thread right now; in a nutshell though I just don't buy the premise that because a Truth-Seeking Orb of a certain size contains a certain amount of power (a laughably low forest-busting amount) that means that means we can assume anything made of "Truth-Seeking Orb" substance contains a proportional amount of power to size.

The ETSO is said to be identical to the TSO on Narutos back but only much bigger in dimensions. These aren't assumptions, the energy per meter squared is literally stated to be identical.

So assuming that Kaguya creating an Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb with an assumed radius 149 million kilometers

That is not an assumption but a standard lowball for dimensions that contain a star. I'm using our accepted standards not my own assumptions here.

over an assumed timeframe of 15 years

It's not an assumption but a logical conclusion that has already been accepted in the past.
It's also a laughable lowball given Kakashi states that they soon might be unable to return to the dimension because of the TSO growing so large, meaning it's supposed to be growing extremely fast.

means that she'd be constantly outputting Brown Dwarf Star levels of chakra or Attack Potency every second.... (Which happens to be a level of power never displayed by anyone else in the verse before or after this by a considerable margin)

And is a level nobody except IT Kaguya scales to (at least right now). And the end value is consistent with the databook saying the TSO contains enough energy to turn the world to naught.
It's also extremely disingenuous to dismiss a blatant feat just because other similar feats weren't shown. Many, MANY series here scale to certain levels simply due to a single feat.

For example Saitamas AP is 4-A possibly 3-C based on 1 feat and his next best feat is 4-C at best but we're not going to dismiss the 4-A one just because no other 4-A+ feats were shown yet. And the difference between low 5-B and high 5-A is MUCH less than better 4-C and 3-C.

All in all, there seem to be too many assumptions to me for it to be workable.

I completely disagree. Every value in the calculation is either a wiki standard or achieved as a logical conclusion.

 

[HelloThere1089]

After a second read, if the translation for the ETSO being "filled to the brim" and "identical to the one's on Naruto's back" are correct, then I agree. I currently don't see how both of these statements can be true without the ETSO being 4B. So until more counters are presented, put me in agree.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I thought there was a statement that they were exactly the same asides from size difference.

To quote the Naruto university translation,

It’s the same as the black orbs on Naruto’s back after he used the Six Paths Sage Mode, however, their size is not comparable

And the other translations are consistent with this. The word used here is as far as I could find "と同" which according to multiple people online and few MTs means "identical", "same as", or "equivalent to".

 

[karo_senpaii]

The 15 year timeframe is meant to have absolutely nothing to do with this CRT. That time frame is the lowball for how long it would take kaguya to recreate another dimension. This calc is for how large it would have gotten at a lowball to erase the dimension and considering kakashi's statement and the rate at which it had already grown I'd say a timeframe of an hour at max should be used. But as for if the method itself should be accepted I don't know about that

 

[DavidTPPM]

The 15 year timeframe is meant to have absolutely nothing to do with this CRT. That time frame is the lowball for how long it would take kaguya to recreate another dimension. This calc is for how large it would have gotten at a lowball to erase the dimension and considering kakashi's statement and the rate at which it had already grown I'd say a timeframe of an hour at max should be used. But as for if the method itself should be accepted I don't know about that

Lowering the time frame is something I'm not against. Kakashi said that if they hid in the Kamui dimension, they wouldn't be able to come back because of how large the TSO will get. And Kakashi knows his possession of kamui has a time limit, meaning Kakashi seems to think the ETSO will engulf the dimension before his kamui time limit ends.

BUT that is a completely separate topic which should be discussed in a separate CRT. I think it's best to focus on getting the method itself accepted first.

 

[Stryker861]

This is completely fine.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Not a fan of the "it contains this power so her base (with IT chakra) is this strong for pumping chakra into it per second" argument given a character simply feeding their energy into something doesn't automatically mean their natural power would scale to it's per second of the final results, especially without a UES (This is not to say it's not possible, just that it's not always the case). That's just my opinion on that however it's already accepted on her profile so I'm not actually arguing against it, just pointing out my negative thoughts on that type of scaling.

Now I don't mind the theoretical end result energy being 4-B/Solar System level when it reaches its peak to engulf the dimension, and thus the Brown Dwarf Star rating is fine too I guess. Still a dumb technique in my opinion given it's vague end effect.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Not a fan of the "it contains this power so her base (with IT chakra) is this strong for pumping chakra into it per second" argument given a character simply feeding their energy into something doesn't automatically mean their natural power would scale to it's per second of the final results, especially without a UES (This is not to say it's not possible, just that it's not always the case). That's just my opinion on that however it's already accepted on her profile so I'm not actually arguing against it, just pointing out my negative thoughts on that type of scaling.

Now I don't mind the theoretical end result energy being 4-B/Solar System level when it reaches its peak to engulf the dimension, and thus the Brown Dwarf Star rating is fine too I guess. Still a dumb technique in my opinion given it's vague end effect.

Her physicals don't scale to it. Never have. And that is not being proposed here either. The only thing being changed here is the Joule value. Her normal attacks won't scale to this yield, only her ETSO.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Her physicals don't scale to it. Never have. And that is not being proposed here either. The only thing being changed here is the Joule value. Her normal attacks won't scale to this yield, only her ETSO.

Her speed and lifting strength get buffed by IT Chakra, isn't her 5-B ap for the IT Chakra per second output?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Not a fan of the "it contains this power so her base (with IT chakra) is this strong for pumping chakra into it per second" argument given a character simply feeding their energy into something doesn't automatically mean their natural power would scale to it's per second of the final results, especially without a UES (This is not to say it's not possible, just that it's not always the case). That's just my opinion on that however it's already accepted on her profile so I'm not actually arguing against it, just pointing out my negative thoughts on that type of scaling.

Now I don't mind the theoretical end result energy being 4-B/Solar System level when it reaches its peak to engulf the dimension, and thus the Brown Dwarf Star rating is fine too I guess. Still a dumb technique in my opinion given it's vague end effect.

Yeah I think the application of the ETSO to Kaguyas profile probably needs a separate CRT but that's for someone else to do .

Can I take this as your approval of the CRT?

 

[HelloThere1089]

Her speed and lifting strength get buffed by IT Chakra, isn't her 5-B ap for the IT Chakra per second output?

If I am not wrong, her 5-B is strictly for the ETSO.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Yeah I think the application of the ETSO to Kaguyas profile probably needs a separate CRT but that's for someone else to do .

It's just that the way it's written on the profile makes it look like the 5-B rating is her base strength with IT chakra because it's the per second value of the ETSO which comes up next.

Can I take this as your approval of the CRT?

Yes I agree.

If I am not wrong, her 5-B is strictly for the ETSO.

Then it's just my bad, it's the way it's structured on the profile. So my mistake.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Then it's just my bad, it's the way it's structured on the profile.

It should be reworded tbh.

 

[DavidTPPM]

If I am not wrong, her 5-B is strictly for the ETSO.

Yeah. That's why her durability doesn't scale to it and we don't scale anyone to the value either.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Yeah. That's why her durability doesn't scale to it and we don't scale anyone to the value either.

True. Anyways, you got a mod vote, you might wanna start that tally now.

 

[DavidTPPM]

True. Anyways, you got a mod vote, you might wanna start that tally now.

Yeah. I also put Damage3245 in disagree although that kinda feels like an empty vote given the lackluster reasoning and his own admitted lack of time to actually participate in the thread.

So I assume we need at least 2 more staff approvals to apply this.

 

[Samlex1234]

My point wasn't that the energy inside normal Truth-Seeking Orbs was too low, but that there's nothing directly supporting the assumption of the mechanics involved here.


No kidding; of course it doesn't make it automatically wrong. I didn't write that as some kind of automatic debunk; I was explaining why I wasn't convinced by the OP and therefore cannot vote in favor of it.


It didn't say "it must not be true" anywhere in my post, did I? I have to consider based on what's presented in the OP and from my knowledge of the series whether it's likely or unlikely to be true and I'm not seeing enough evidence for me to consider it to be likely to be accurate.


I didn't say anywhere you had to agree with me; I'm sure plenty of people will be convinced that the assumptions in the OP are valid and there is nothing wrong with upgrading Kaguya's ETSO to that level. Doesn't mean I'm automatically convinced though.



If you want to go into fallacies that we can say that the OP is committing an Association Fallacy:



Since Obito's & Naruto's Truth-Seeking Orbs has a certain quality (forest-busting power while they're the size of a fist), and Kaguya's ETSO is associated with them, then it automatically has the same level of power in each bit of its volume.

There's no actual proof that it definitely works like this as far as I can tell.

Seems like you've made up your mind, and I can't fault you for that. Could you let the original poster know if you disagree or are neutral on the matter?

 

[Damage3245]

Seems like you've made up your mind, and I can't fault you for that. Could you let the original poster know if you disagree or are neutral on the matter?

For the moment I disagree but I'll still keep following the thread and may change to neutral or agree depending on how it goes.

 

[Nierre]

Yeah. I also put Damage3245 in disagree although that kinda feels like an empty vote given the lackluster reasoning and his own admitted lack of time to actually participate in the thread.

So I assume we need at least 2 more staff approvals to apply this.

1 not 2.

 

[DavidTPPM]

1 not 2.

Well I assumed that as long as there's 1 staff disagreement we should get 1 additional staff approval to balance it out.
Not sure if there are specific rules about this

 

[Da3ggman]

Well I assumed that as long as there's 1 staff disagreement we should get 1 additional staff approval to balance it out.
Not sure if there are specific rules about this

For a verse like Naruto, you'd probably need at least 3 staff agreements to get a Tier Upgrade through- especially with one staff disagreement.

 

[Nierre]

Well I assumed that as long as there's 1 staff disagreement we should get 1 additional staff approval to balance it out.
Not sure if there are specific rules about this

nah. 3-1 is good enough. ofc if u want to get an extra vote to be extra sure that's entirely up to u

 

[DavidTPPM]

For a verse like Naruto, you'd probably need at least 3 staff agreements to get a Tier Upgrade through- especially with one staff disagreement.

nah. 3-1 is good enough. ofc if u want to get an extra vote to be extra sure that's entirely up to u

Yeah that's why I'm going for 2 more votes (3 in total)

 

[Nierre]

Yeah that's why I'm going for 2 more votes (3 in total)

i thought slayer and griff agreed ?

 

[HelloThere1089]

2 votes (baseline) of agreement are required for a thread as long as they're in the majority. If 2 or more people disagree then just 1 vote of agreement more than those who disagree would suffice. 3 votes (baseline) are only required if the thread is too controversial which this one is not. So one more staff agreement should do.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Seems ok

 

[DavidTPPM]

i thought slayer and griff agreed ?

Did they? I might have missed the comments, could you link them pretty please

 

[HelloThere1089]

i thought slayer and griff agreed ?

Slayer is being extra rn. Slayer wanted to wait for counters last I checked. Damage is the only one with any counters. Not sure if Slayer checked on this thread after that.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

You are missing something.

Nobody is taking away from the ETSB's qualities. It is objectively the same as a regular TSB. This isn't up for discussion.
But the fact is nobody actually knows how it was going to destroy the dimension. However, my interpretation has some support to it. Yours has none. Which is why mine is the widely accepted interpretation, and yours is not.

okayy

 

[Samlex1234]

The idea that if a fist sized TSB has forest level energy, then a Sun sized one has 4-B energy? I think it's fine in theory, but I'm kinda waiting for the opposition to make their arguments before I commit to an official vote.

Hey man. how about now? Have they made their arguments yet or are you still waiting?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah. I also put Damage3245 in disagree although that kinda feels like an empty vote given the lackluster reasoning and his own admitted lack of time to actually participate in the thread.

If he disagrees then it's a disagreement. Feeling like it's wrong doesn't make it invalid.

For the thread I think the feat is 4-B, I just think it explodes. So it would be the Dragon Ball SPC calc and not a create a giant orb calc.

 

[Samlex1234]

If he disagrees then it's a disagreement. Feeling like it's wrong doesn't make it invalid.

For the thread I think the feat is 4-B, I just think it explodes. So it would be the Dragon Ball SPC calc and not a create a giant orb calc

Hmm, I'm not faulting your logic, but what evidence do you have that it explodes?

 

[DavidTPPM]

If he disagrees then it's a disagreement. Feeling like it's wrong doesn't make it invalid.

That's why I still put him as a disagreement lol

For the thread I think the feat is 4-B, I just think it explodes. So it would be the Dragom Ball SPC calc and not a create a giant orb calc.

I mean I would agree but that interpretation was rejected for now in favor of the big ball one

 

[Samlex1234]

If he disagrees then it's a disagreement. Feeling like it's wrong doesn't make it invalid.

For the thread I think the feat is 4-B, I just think it explodes. So it would be the Dragon Ball SPC calc and not a create a giant orb calc.

Also, to address something, I believe that a moderator's vote, which carries significant weight in whether a thread gets approved or not, should not be made lightly or without sufficient evidence. It's fine to disagree or agree without evidence as a participant, but when a moderator agrees or disagrees, it impacts a verse significantly. There’s a reason the neutral option exists—it should be used when there's not enough evidence to make a decisive call.

 

[Qawsedf234]

logic, but what evidence do you have that it explodes?

I gave my reasoning earlier

I'm not seeing that
The Databook is talking about the power contained inside the orb, that when it explodes, can destroy the dimension.

lightly or without sufficient evidence

I mean he gave his evidence and reasoning. To him those were sufficient. Though ultimately I get what you're talking about.