koopa3144
He/Him- 6,244
- 3,069
- Fight takes place in a wrestling ring
- Winner is decided by knockout
- Ryu is in his SFV-III key
- Speed is equalized
Ryu:1
Incineroar:7
Incon:0
Last edited:
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Do you want me to count this as a vote for Ryu?Ryu should have quite the skill advantage and he has also a large experience against master wrestlers who are most likely better than Incineroar, namely Zangief and Alex, and the latter was already having troubles against an early series Ryu, while the one used here stomped him without even trying.
Incineroar is quite the wrestler in his own regard, but there's no way to tell how experienced he is against actual fighters such as Ryu, as it might no have stumbled upon too many fighting types, as well as having faired well against them, and remember that combat experience against non-martial artist mons helps so far.
Add the fact that Incineroar's weak to fighting moves, and that Ryu's LS is at the very least comparable (the difference between their calcs is a little more than 2X, but Ryu scales massively above that feat which was casual to beging with).
Incineroar has some useful tools, but Ryu's also got his own, and at the end of the way I think the scale is tilted in Ryu's favor.
This shouldn't be underestimated, since he's primarily a physical fighter, being in notable disadvantage at cqc could mean he doesn't get the chance of using some of his best or most useful moves, or being worn out quickly. The dex also states he prefers all out, no holds barred and rough battles, with punches and kicks and such, and being at a disadvantage in such field can be extremely detrimental for it.Incineroar might have an experience disadvantage but a few things need to be noted. 1.
I thought we still followed the concept of fighting as specifically refined moves, against more rough and brawling-oriented normal physical attacks (although the latter can't be applied outside of the verse), with Dark being a mix of underhanded tactics and dark energy.Fighting type moves =/= every form of martial arts. Just punching people doesn't mean it's suddenly a fighting type move since there are other moves composed of complex physical attacks that aren't fighting types. It has been basically accepted that fighting types aren't a type weakness that can be applied outside of the verse, the only ones that can be are the elemental ones such as fire or water. This comes from all of the types coming from Arceus' plates.
From what I see, Inci doesn't learn counterHe can deal any damage he takes back by using Counter,
First, do we really accept PKMN multipliers and divisors as actual values, instead of unquantifiable stat alterations like we do with most other RPGs, where we classify X and / as game mechanics?he can lower Ryu's speed severely, his defense and attack potency. He can also boost his own power up to 4x with bulk up. All of this comes from distance and sound based moves, one being a roar, the other a leer and the other a grimace, making it basically undodgeable especially in close combat.
Besides that is obviously Incineroar's fire based abilities which have good range and good heat.
That's quite the big thing, but I would say that such projectiles can be avoided and countered, both things Ryu can very well do.Also, Incineroar has 2000C heat and Ryu has no resistance. Overall, i vote for him via the reasons above and crazy heat
Nah that changed generally. There are many pokemon moves that contain martial arts that aren't considered fighting type moves. Considering everything comes from the plates and ki isn't really the same as aura and how it functions there isn't much to equalize here.I thought we still followed the concept of fighting as specifically refined moves, against more rough and brawling-oriented normal physical attacks (although the latter can't be applied outside of the verse), with Dark being a mix of underhanded tactics and dark energy.
Technically the fact that SF works by Ki being a manifestation of fighting spirit which fuels the fighter, similarly to the Pokemon aura, might intertwine with Pokèmon mechanics.
Anyway, if current wiki rules don't allow this, then ok, but otherwise it would be another major disadvantage for Inci.
technically yeah, you see many things that are ingame often appear in the anime and manga, an example being Ash vs. Drasnea where one of her attacks, hyper fang, hits Ash's pokemon and Clemont (genius dude) states that the move cuts exactly half of the opponent's stamina. This suggests that things that seem to only appear in game appear in the anime as well, countering the fact that most of the descriptions are just game mechanics. Not to mention that we do know that a single use of stat amps boost characters significantly and, in my opinion, using 1.5 to 2x multiplier is a good estimate (though tbh in some cases it may be a lowball as there are examples of agility just blitzing opponents first few uses, so overall, taking the stats is good), not to mention the same multiplier appears in mystery dungeon canonically as it is stated that our power doubles or our speed doubles in which case you will walk and fight visually twice as fast as your opponent or thrice or ect.First, do we really accept PKMN multipliers and divisors as actual values, instead of unquantifiable stat alterations like we do with most other RPGs, where we classify X and / as game mechanics?
that is understandable but speed debuffs would make his life hell, not to mention Incineroar has the attack swagger which he will definitely use, given his personality, and that will buff but also confuse ryu which will definitely cause problems for him, major problems as he will either hit himself or hit things at random until he snaps back out of it by the time Incineroar could just use growl to lower his stats back down, hit him with a throat chop or just melt him with one of his attacksAnyway, Ryu's already going to sense how strong Inci is through ki sensing, and would also notice if it power ups, how he did it, and take countermeasures, or just trying to pressure it more or finish it off more quickly. Stat down moves are a thing and would work, yes, but it shouldn't be taken for granted that Incineroar will have the chance to land all of them and to stack them up, or even just spam them so much given its behavior.
Ryu's also quite used at fighting opponents with higher stats (Seth in the OAV, Bison in the Alpha series, Akuma several times..), and his smarts, experience, willpower and stamina also weight in, he defintiely isn't going to get trumped by a few stat debuffs (although they surely don't play in his favor, I'm not saying that)
that's true, though flamethrower may turn out to be more effective since unlike a singular hadouken, flamethrower is a continuous heat streamIn ranged options they're basically even in experience and attacks, but I'd say Inci's tendency to fight head-on puts him a step back towards Ryu, who has refined his hadoken as a major part of his style (in opposition to Ken's style), and while their heat is going to do jackshit to Inci, such projectiles are concussive energy in the first place, meaning they're still going to damage it, while Electric hadokens would work fully.
you also have to account that Inci's cc options aren't limited. If Inci boosts his stats with bulk up he can use powertrip which is a very powerful attack that increases in power with each stat boost. Additionally he has fake out and thrash, one making Ryu flinch and the other making it hard for him to fully counter the attack as it is basically a barrage of random punches.And speaking of other options, Ryu could very well apply his statuses here, if he manages to combo Inci, something he's likely to do given the skill gap, and that means more free hits, especially power-upped moves.
His 3 powernull techniques, air manip and electricity are also in-there to be accounted.
he also has flare blitz and fire fang both of which are viable options for him. If Ryu ever gets hit with swagger these moves will be a nearly guaranteed heat and considering Inci could pierce into Ryu's skin he could just melt his body with just his flames in a fire fang.That's quite the big thing, but I would say that such projectiles can be avoided and countered, both things Ryu can very well do.
Also, the dex also says Inci prefers to leave ranged fire attacks as finishers, that should be taken into consideration.
Not really, higher stats can be countered to a certain degree by tactic, prediction, smarts, skill and certain techniques, all things Ryu has refined to the masterful levels, to which his enhanced senses have to be added.that is understandable but speed debuffs would make his life hell,
Confusion isn't a complete handicap, mons still have good chances to behave normally. Ryu's power of nothingness might also weight in, maybe, since it's basically purging all distractions and intereferences to focus on the fight, in opposition to the Satsui no Hado.not to mention Incineroar has the attack swagger which he will definitely use, given his personality, and that will buff but also confuse ryu which will definitely cause problems for him, major problems as he will either hit himself or hit things at random until he snaps back out of it by the time Incineroar could just use growl to lower his stats back down, hit him with a throat chop or just melt him with one of his attacks.
Ryu can use the hadoken as a continous stream as well, and even normal ones have been shown to work against fiery explosions.that's true, though flamethrower may turn out to be more effective since unlike a singular hadouken, flamethrower is a continuous heat stream.
Power Trip needs Inci to have the chance of boosting at least a few time, which shouldn't be given for granted.you also have to account that Inci's cc options aren't limited. If Inci boosts his stats with bulk up he can use powertrip which is a very powerful attack that increases in power with each stat boost. Additionally he has fake out and thrash, one making Ryu flinch and the other making it hard for him to fully counter the attack as it is basically a barrage of random punches.
They have to land first, a tackle and a bite can be seen through and coutneracted accordingly.he also has flare blitz and fire fang both of which are viable options for him. If Ryu ever gets hit with swagger these moves will be a nearly guaranteed heat and considering Inci could pierce into Ryu's skin he could just melt his body with just his flames in a fire fang.
countedVoting Incineroar because he has superior options outside of just martial arts to Ryu.
Incineroar has an arsenal of fighting type moves that might make up for Ryu’s, that isn’t Incineroar’s only options unlike Ryu who doesn’t have many tools outside of his martial arts.
This is quite and underselling, and you still have to see what those martial arts are, as a good fighter can very well compensate a lack of hax, which is honestly what Ryu does, just look at Bison's profile.Voting Incineroar because he has superior options outside of just martial arts to Ryu.
Incineroar has an arsenal of fighting type moves that might make up for Ryu’s, that isn’t Incineroar’s only options unlike Ryu who doesn’t have many tools outside of his martial arts.
This is quite and underselling, and you still have to see what those martial arts are.."
...a good fighter can very well compensate a lack of hax...
And Incineroar remains a non-fighting type who's still described as a rough brawler, having some fighting type moves doesn't make it equal to one of the caliber of Ryu.
And Ryu's martial arts still include stuff like ranged attacks, air manip, electricity, statuses, very good acrobatics and (limited) powernull.
I didn't mention his deconstruction because it isn't in character for Inci to go for the kill, but for whatever reason this wild animal tries that, I think it's fair to say Ryu would try to defend himself with his best option.
I'll reply to the rest later, but first, my apologies for the misunderstanding, I didn't mean to refer to "you" as a person with my "you", it was more of a generic way to refer to a generic subject in the argument.I don't know why you would immediately resort to me not understanding Ryu's skills in martial arts considering you have little to no evidence of what I know. Purely an assumption.
I'll reply to the rest later, but first, my apologies for the misunderstanding, I didn't mean to refer to "you" as a person with my "you", it was more of a generic way to refer to a generic subject in the argument.
Instead, I think narration is what allows us to sort the thing out.I believe it is generally the other way around.
Under normal conditions, Mario should be able to defeat Kamek, but it is Kamek's hax that make people automatically rethink the match entirely.
Mario's skills as a fighter is not enough to overlook hax in many cases. I don't think we would hear "Mario wins because of his fighting skills", but rather "Mario would win if Kamek doesn't resort to turning him into a goomba."
Yes, but it goes so far, honestly, given the width of the gapI didn't say that having fighting type moves made Incineroar equal to Ryu, I stated that it makes combat easier for Incineroar.
First, remind me if we allow TM moves in our files, since we assume these are wild Pokémon.Moves like acrobatics, assurance, blaze kick, body slam, close combat, cross chop, darkest lariat, drain punch, endeavor, fake out, fire fang, fire punch, flame charge, flare blitz, focus punch, giga impact, heat crash, iron head, leech life, lick, low kick, mega punch, outrage, revenge, shadow claw, stomping tantrum, superpower, thrash, throat chop, reversal, and thunder punch will be a great help for Incineroar. It isn't just fighting type moves we are talking here anyway.
Ryu's powernull is a form of "super block", it basically nulls the damage dealt by an attack not eccessively superior to Ryu's stats and allows Ryu to counterattack.I hope he gets to use some of that power-null, because Incin has multiple moves that either benefit from or don't care about it such as darkest lariat and lash out, alongside other moves that can boost his stats such as bulk up or swords dance.
Not really, because Ryu's statuses don't linger on the opponent.Any statuses are happily greeted by facade, as well as will-o-wisp being distributed in response.
I misremembered Inci's dex entries, then.What makes you think a wild Incineroar isn't going to kill Ryu given the chance?
Yes.Wasn't there a statement that Machamp are masters of every single martial arts ever.
Then yeah, Pokemon can swap hands with this things pretty damn consistently. People don't give them enough credit in the skill department.Yes.
"Machamp is known as the Pokémon that has mastered every kind of martial arts. If it grabs hold of the foe with its four arms, the battle is all but over. The hapless foe is thrown far over the horizon." ~ Sapphire and Alpha Sapphire Machamp dex entry
"With four arms, it can attack and defend simultaneously. It's said to have mastered every martial art in the world." ~Ultra Moon Machamp dex entry
This is also supported by Machop to an extent, the first stage
"Loves to build its muscles. It trains in all styles of martial arts to become even stronger." ~Red, Blue, and Leafgreen Machop entry
"Very powerful in spite of its small size. Its mastery of many types of martial arts makes it very tough." ~Yellow, Let's Go Pikachu, and Let's Go Eevee entry
"Machop exercises by hefting around a Graveler as if it were a barbell. There are some Machop that travel the world in a quest to master all kinds of martial arts." ~Sapphire and Alpha Sapphire entry
"It continually undertakes strenuous training to master all forms of martial arts. Its strength lets it easily hoist a sumo wrestler onto its shoulders." ~Emerald entry
"It hefts a Graveler repeatedly to strengthen its entire body. It uses every type of martial arts." ~Diamond, X, and Brilliant Diamond entry
Sorry if a bit long, just wanted to be a bit thorough
This is a gigantic misconception.Wasn't there a statement that Machamp are masters of every single martial arts ever and practically every third stage pokemon under the sun can swap hands with them just fine? Incinerate isn't exactly lacking in skill, I just wanna put that out there.
It's logical to assume hax usually beats mundane forms of combat, but when the story tells us that David beat Goliath, then it's quite reasonable to assume the former figured out a way to circumvent the latter's advantages.
In this case you can argue Mario used his crazy acrobatics, exploited the environment or something else to win.
In the same way, Ryu can beat one like Bison through sheer skill despite being less versatile in terms of combat options
Yes, but it goes so far, honestly, given the width of the gap
First, remind me if we allow TM moves in our files, since we assume these are wild Pokémon.
I'm sure it's been discussed several times, but I don't remember the last verdict.
Ryu's powernull is a form of "super block", it basically nulls the damage dealt by an attack not eccessively superior to Ryu's stats and allows Ryu to counterattack.
Also, his hadokens have shown the ability to extinguish large bursts of flames.
Not really, because Ryu's statuses don't linger on the opponent.
The first is generally called stun, basically if Ryu connects a decently long combo, or chains together several attacks within a timeframe without giving the opponent much window to recover, he stuns them for a little, a period during which they are left standing still and unable to act.
I also want to note that, despite it being a common trope within fighting games, it was established in a CRT that it should be generally accounted, since techniques such as Poison's Love Kiss or Alex's Headbutt Machine Gun are specifically meant to induce such status (which otherwise can be induced by everyone via the methods above).
This, along the next one, is quite useful, since it basically grants Ryu more free hits.
That said, Ryu isn't stranger to kill the enemy if it means saving his life or ridding the world of a great evil (Bison [twice] and Seth [clone] are examples).
Inci would fall in the first category, meaning that at some point, if Ryu's determines that his life is seriously endangered, he could fire a Mu No Ken hadoken and make Inci vanish, were it to land.
I meant more apparently insormountable odds being beaten because of the narrative telling us the character can win.I don't think either mentioned character in this example has any notable "hax". This feels more like just an example of "strong projectile vs. weak point on powerful opponent" rather than a testament of pure skill.
Not that David didn't have skill, as he evidently did considering how well he aimed the rock, but that the factors that came into play regarding David's decision of attack.
I wouldn't necessarily say Inci has superior projectiles, given how the dex portrays him as a mostly purely physical fighter, while Ryu is known for his hadokens, of which he knows a few versions, and the fact is extremely trained and skilled at using them.It will be these factors I think will play out in this match. For example, Incin has superior projectile and utility game, which, in my opinion, will probably earn him a win, but I wouldn't consider those to be hax.
It doesn't refuse what you said, but I believe that having a few fighting type moves makes really low difference.I don't see how this comment refutes what I said.
Iirc I think we always assumed the wild mons to be purely wild, because being partially trained would include a great load of stuff that trained mons have and wild don't, which isn't limited to just TMsI am not sure what the last verdict is because I am a bit new here, but I can see how it woukd work.
Once a Pokemon is abandoned by the trainer, it becomes wild.
The trainer could have loaded tms onto the Pokemon before it was abandoned, which, not only makes a case for a wild Pokemon learning moves by tm, but also the rest of its arsenal.
We list reducing stats as Statistics Reduction, while canceling out powers is effectively powernull, but in this case I didn't know how to classify the act of canceling the impact of a strike, which is why it was decided to list such techniwues as limited power-null.I see. Apologies, as I thought it "power-null" was the ability to reduce stats or power.
It's in Ryu's P&A, but these are the two feats.Would like citations for this one.
It's more like the concept of status effect being quite broad, instead of being limited to the classic RPG definition.SF has a new definition for everything it seems.
It's because Ryu doesn't kill for free, and always prefers to subdue even evil opponents, instead of outright murdering them.Odd thing to say after a concession.
That said, I don't disagree with you, and, to think of it, I don't think I ever did. It's simply logical that one would be willing to kill another over the safety of itself.
Provided this, I don't think that the Incin entries were all that necessary.