New issues with the calculated size of the Seireitei

[Damage3245]

As the title states, I've encountered some new issues from the series Bleach that force me to create another thread to address this controversial topic. Because of how controversial it is, I've decided to make this a Staff Only CRT after consulting with other staff members but knowledgeable members for Bleach will be allowed to comment on the thread to give relevant information. Please do not comment without permission or to try derail this thread with complaints or posts unrelated to the topic.

Some of the issues I've brought up haven't been addressed in previous threads from what I've researched, so this isn't simply a repeat. I want to get the viewpoints of as many staff members as possible on this, since I believe it to be a crucial topic for judging the consistency of evidence.

Background​

In chapter 76, Yoruichi gives a statement to Chad that they cannot simply walk to another gate to infiltrate Seireitei because it takes ten days to walk there. This is the only time this statement has ever come up.

Since there are four gates spaced evenly around the Seireitei, then it would take approximately forty days to walk around it based on her statement.

Assuming eight hours of rest each day means a total of 640 hours of walking to encircle the Seireitei.

Using an average walking speed of 1.389 m/s gives you a circumference of 3200 km and a radius of 509.3 km.

That’s the current basis for how the Seireitei has been calculated to have a diameter of 1018.6 kilometers.

To be clear, there is no statement on the Seireitei’s size within the manga itself. Our current figure is a calculation based on a statement.

Visuals of the Seireitei​

For an impressive figure of 1018.6 kilometers, I would expect for there to be some supporting evidence of that size.

We have been given visuals of the entirety of the Seireitei several times since this statement was made in the manga, so I would expect at least one to match up with it.

Here are ten such visuals:

1) Chapter 84, Page 17

2) Chapter 84, Page 19

3) Chapter 546, Page 10 [This one is the best visual we have of the Seireitei as a whole, also showing us two of the gates on the wall in the same panel]

4) Chapter 576, Page 18

5) Chapter 608, Page 1

6) Chapter 614, Page 17

7) Chapter 615, Page 10

8) Chapter 621, Page 3

9) Chapter 654, Page 6

10) Chapter 684, Page 9

The majority of these are from the final arc of the manga, in other words the most recent and up to date appearance for the Seireitei.

Not one of them comes close to the calced figure based on Yoruichi’s one-time statement.

Naturally there are some inconsistencies between the visuals. Changes in art style over time, different perspectives, etc. But the overall impression of the Seireitei’s size is not vastly different except for the earliest one in chapter 84. We can't expect authors to be 100% consistent but there's no denying that every visual I've posted does not support our calculation.

Other Issues​

Simple visuals of the entire Seireitei may not be satisfactory for everyone (despite how many of them there are up above), but there are a few other issues that crop up:

Ichigo’s plan to enter the Seireitei​

Ichigo’s party decides to enter the Seireitei by being blasted up in the sky and approaching the Seireitei from the air, getting through the protective dome.

We can see how high up Ichigo and company are launched into the air above Kukaku’s house & forest. It’s not extremely high up based on the panel where they look down and see the structure they were launched from.

Yet when they enter the Seireitei, they are plainly coming at it from an angle well above the Seireitei.

This would make the height they were launched to to be well over a thousand kilometers high going by the accepted size, but we have seen that this isn’t the case from the panels up above.

Cloud Height​

In chapter 576, we see a visual of Gremmy’s meteor approaching from outside the Seireitei’s dome and breaking through the cloud cover here.

With the currently accepted size making the height of this dome to be 503.9 kilometers tall, then this would make the clouds here to be approximately 900 kilometers high off of the ground.

The Soul Society is supposed to be a mirror image to Earth, which is why we currently treat it as an Earth-based planet with supposedly Earth-based oceans (for a different calc) and all the rest of it.

But these kinds of clouds forming 900 kilometers high in the sky is something that just doesn’t happen. No reason is given in the series for us to treat them any differently than to clouds on Earth, and we should avoid all speculation like “Maybe the clouds are just different in the afterlife.”

In case there’s any doubt that this is just a one-off, we also see clouds well above the Seireitei’s dome back in chapter 84.

For reference, an object 160 km above the Earth looks like this, and the highest clouds in recorded history vary from 76 to 85 km according to this.

Yhwach being seemingly outside the dome​

In chapter 493, these Shinigami mistook Yhwach as being still outside of the Seireitei's dome while he hovered in the air above them and needed to be corrected that he's already inside of it.

Judging by the wording on the pages, this group of Shinigami aren’t near any of the gates to the Seireitei.

Mistaking him for being outside of it would make no sense if he had to be hundreds of kilometers away from them in order to be outside of the Seireitei’s dome (which currently has an accepted height of 503.9 kilometers).

This just further illustrates the inconsistency with the current size.

Counter Points​

There have been some counter points to objecting to the calculated size for the Seireitei, the most notable ones being these:

Mountains inside the Seireitei​

One of the counter-points given against this is that the Seireitei is big enough to contain entire mountains within it, next to the 13th Division Barracks as seen here in chapter 230 and here in chapter 479.

The biggest problem with this is that I can’t find any explicit evidence that these mountains are within the walls of Seireitei itself and not just beyond them and near to the 13th Division Barracks. We know from this overhead shot that there are in fact mountains outside of the Seireitei, so these could just be those same mountains beyond the walls of the Seireitei.

So these other visuals aren’t explicitly supporting evidence for a massive country-sized Seireitei.

Characters travelling in the novel​

In the novel WE DO knot ALWAYS LOVE YOU, which isn’t written by Kubo, there are a couple of characters who travel through the Seireitei at night for a couple of days in order to reach a location within it.

It’s not stated that they travel in an exclusively straight line but assuming at least two nighttimates worth of travel (or two periods of 12 hours) and assuming the same walking speed further up, and assuming they never stopped, we get about 120 kilometers for distance travelled.

While that’s a big figure, it doesn’t explicitly support the 1018.6 kilometers figure for the diameter of the Seireitei found through the Yoruichi statement.

Personally, due to its origin being in a novel that isn’t written by Kubo and doesn’t have any hard figures attached to it like an explicit speed or timeframe, I don’t consider this to be very strong supporting evidence of the current size. Any distance we get from this will be mostly conjectural.

Fade to Black movie statement​

In the third Bleach movie, Fade to Black, there is a statement of a Reishi spillage affecting an area 200 spirit miles (488 miles) across, covering a third of the Seireitei’s grounds.

Some have taken this to mean that the Seireitei is 600 spirit miles in diameter but covering the Seireitei’s grounds suggests to me that it is covering a third of the Seireitei’s area, not a third of its diameter.

Be that as it may, the Fade to Black movie is non-canon and should not be used to back up the size of the Seireitei in the manga which is consistently portrayed as being nowhere near this size and has no statements of spirit miles given.

Conclusion​

What is more likely? That every single overall view of the Seireitei was drawn incorrectly, and every other plot point concerning the Seireitei’s size is wrong and irrelevant, or that Kubo just gave Yoruichi a dumb, one-off line about how long it would take to go to another gate in order to make the characters try and enter Seireitei a different way.

If we get an outrageous figure from a size calc then I’d expect there to be more supportive evidence for it, and less counter-evidence.

Even if the multiple visuals not supporting the current calc aren’t convincing enough to you, then the other counter-evidence should be enough to provoke doubts as to the accuracy of the current calc. If we were given a straightforward distance/size figure from the author in the manga itself then that would be different, but instead we're currently using a calculating based on a travel statement which we have to make assumptions for. Our assumptions should not trump everything else presented to us in the manga.

Lastly, I don't want to pull a "Whataboutism" and drag in other verses because I think that verse's topics should be judged based on their own evidence and such, but a calculation for Toneri was thrown into question because 1 visual was contradicted by multiple other visuals which were more consistent with each other than with the outlier visual. With this kind of precedence I would not find it unreasonable to call Yoruichi's statement an "outlier" as well on the same basis. 1 statement is being contracted by multiple visuals and by multiple other logical issues with the derived calculation.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Following to watch the spice

 

[AKM sama]

Assuming eight hours of rest each day means a total of 640 hours of walking to encircle the Seireitei.

Well, to be conservative, I'd not have assumed 16 hours of walking every day. With 8 hours of sleep + around 4 hours for intermediate breaks during the day for meals and rest, I'd only have calculated the feat with maximum 12 hours of walking. But the calculation is still open to assumptions as it doesn't provide anything concrete, and hence, prone to getting highly varied results too.

We can see how high up Ichigo and company are launched into the air above Kukaku’s house & forest. It’s not extremely high up based on the panel where they look down and see the structure they were launched from.

I'll point out that if we go by the current calculation, this height would be over a thousand kilometers. And the resulting dust cloud formed on the ground would also be hundreds of kilometers wide. The force required to make such a dust cloud should have easily destroyed the area with the building that they were launched from.
Not to mention in the next panel we can clearly see the building and they are obviously not a thousand kilometers above the ground.

For reference, an object 160 km above the Earth looks like this, and the highest clouds in recorded history vary from 76 to 85 km according to this.

This is a good point.

Mistaking him for being outside of it would make no sense if he had to be hundreds of kilometers away from them in order to be outside of the Seireitei’s dome (which currently has an accepted height of 503.9 kilometers).

This is also a good supporting evidence owing to the height not being that much.

I agree with this thread. There is one statement (which is not directly stating the distance), that is open to interpretation in how you want to calculate it, and if the calculation is giving results that are contradicted by the series, then there is something wrong with the assumptions taken and the writer might have meant it in a different way than what the calc assumes.

Even if the calculation was somehow legitimate, when there are overwhelmingly many instances of evidence suggesting one thing, and only one evidence suggesting the other, that becomes a clear example of an outlier.

 

[Starter_Pack]

This seems to be fine.

 

[KingTempest]

Following

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I have permission -> https://vsbattles.com/members/kingtempest.9980/#profile-post-comment-17211

ThIs HaS bEeN rEjEcTeD mUlTiPlE tImEs In PrEvIoUs ThReAdS huuurrrrr durrrrr funny joke, I wasn't here last time this downgrade was rejected so I don't know if these arguments are repeats.

TBH if we were less uber strict and more fair with the verse as a whole, I prolly wouldn't have much issues with this thread and using this calc instead. However, that is not the case, so I will fight tooth and nail for what we have going for the verse lel.

Fade to Black movie statement​

In the third Bleach movie, Fade to Black, there is a statement of a Reishi spillage affecting an area 200 spirit miles (488 miles) across, covering a third of the Seireitei’s grounds.

Some have taken this to mean that the Seireitei is 600 spirit miles in diameter but covering the Seireitei’s grounds suggests to me that it is covering a third of the Seireitei’s area, not a third of its diameter.

Be that as it may, the Fade to Black movie is non-canon and should not be used to back up the size of the Seireitei in the manga which is consistently portrayed as being nowhere near this size and has no statements of spirit miles given.

Miles is a unit of length not area. Kubo worked closely with the movie, and while it certainly isn't a part of the main Bleach timeline, it is corporate canon. Kubo worked on the movie -> length statement for Seireitei -> he didn't remove it or mention he had issues with it. While, I'm not proposing 2000+ km diameter, it certainly supports that Kubo intends Seireitei to be massive.

Lastly, I don't want to pull a "Whataboutism" and drag in other verses because I think that verse's topics should be judged based on their own evidence and such, but a calculation for Toneri was thrown into question because 1 visual was contradicted by multiple other visuals which were more consistent with each other than with the outlier visual. With this kind of precedence I would not find it unreasonable to call Yoruichi's statement an "outlier" as well on the same basis. 1 statement is being contracted by multiple visuals and by multiple other logical issues with the derived calculation.

Toneri doesn't have a size statement for the split distance, so false equivalence.

Mountains inside the Seireitei​

One of the counter-points given against this is that the Seireitei is big enough to contain entire mountains within it, next to the 13th Division Barracks as seen here in chapter 230 and here in chapter 479.

The biggest problem with this is that I can’t find any explicit evidence that these mountains are within the walls of Seireitei itself and not just beyond them and near to the 13th Division Barracks. We know from this overhead shot that there are in fact mountains outside of the Seireitei, so these could just be those same mountains beyond the walls of the Seireitei.

So these other visuals aren’t explicitly supporting evidence for a massive country-sized Seireitei.

Seireitei has a pretty obvious border, that isn't displayed in those scans. We know Ukitake is in Seireitei, we can see mountains with no visible boundary that indicates they're outside. I'd reckon that's better for within then "maybe it's outside".

Characters travelling in the novel​

In the novel WE DO knot ALWAYS LOVE YOU, which isn’t written by Kubo, there are a couple of characters who travel through the Seireitei at night for a couple of days in order to reach a location within it.

It’s not stated that they travel in an exclusively straight line but assuming at least two nighttimates worth of travel (or two periods of 12 hours) and assuming the same walking speed further up, and assuming they never stopped, we get about 120 kilometers for distance travelled.

While that’s a big figure, it doesn’t explicitly support the 1018.6 kilometers figure for the diameter of the Seireitei found through the Yoruichi statement.

Personally, due to its origin being in a novel that isn’t written by Kubo and doesn’t have any hard figures attached to it like an explicit speed or timeframe, I don’t consider this to be very strong supporting evidence of the current size. Any distance we get from this will be mostly conjectural.

If you can travel within Seireitei for multiple nights and not reach any boundary of Seireitei, that certainly supports Yoruichi's statement.

Visuals​

Regarding the "visually inconsistent with the statements", Kubo's art isn't even consistent with it self. Certain shots of Seireitei put it at multi-city block in size. You can line up shots within the same fight (such as Gremmy's) and they aren't even self-consistent. Arguing for "visual consistency" with Kubo is like arguing that a pathological liar is honest.

Direct statements > inconsistent visuals

 

[Damage3245]

TBH if we were less uber strict and more fair with the verse as a whole, I prolly wouldn't have much issues with this thread and using this calc instead. However, that is not the case, so I will fight tooth and nail for what we have going for the verse lel.

You can argue as you like, but if your motivation for the argument is "We're strict elsewhere on the verse so we shouldn't be strict here" is a bit odd.

Miles is a unit of length not area. Kubo worked closely with the movie, and while it certainly isn't a part of the main Bleach timeline, it is corporate canon. Kubo worked on the movie -> length statement for Seireitei -> he didn't remove it or mention he had issues with it. While, I'm not proposing 2000+ km diameter, it certainly supports that Kubo intends Seireitei to be massive.

Either way, it's not canon to the verse as a whole so it cannot be used.

Also, I'm not saying the miles are a unit of area. I'm saying that the 200 spirit miles figure could be for the diameter of the area affected, and that area is 1/3rd of the area of the Seireitei, not 1/3rd of the diameter of Seireitei.

Toneri doesn't have a size statement for the split distance, so false equivalence.

I don't think this should be looked at it in terms of statements vs. visuals. It can be drilled down to "1 piece of evidence contradicted by many pieces of evidence" and "1 piece of evidence contracted by many pieces of evidence."

In that sense, I don't consider this a false equivalence.

Seireitei has a pretty obvious border, that isn't displayed in those scans. We know Ukitake is in Seireitei, we can see mountains with no visible boundary that indicates they're outside. I'd reckon that's better for within then "maybe it's outside".

The boundary not being visible doesn't mean it isn't there. Those scans aren't perfect visuals showing us the ground level up to the base of the mountains.

If you can travel within Seireitei for multiple nights and not reach any boundary of Seireitei, that certainly supports Yoruichi's statement.

It doesn't contradict the figure for the current calculation but it doesn't explicitly support it either.

Regarding the "visually inconsistent with the statements", Kubo's art isn't even consistent with it self. Certain shots of Seireitei put it at multi-city block in size. You can line up shots within the same fight (such as Gremmy's) and they aren't even self-consistent. Arguing for "visual consistency" with Kubo is like arguing that a pathological liar is honest.

That evidently wasn't an issue when the size of the meteor was calculated based on the visual of how far away it was from the Seireitei itself.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with this thread. There is one statement (which is not directly stating the distance), that is open to interpretation in how you want to calculate it, and if the calculation is giving results that are contradicted by the series, then there is something wrong with the assumptions taken and the writer might have meant it in a different way than what the calc assumes.

Even if the calculation was somehow legitimate, when there are overwhelmingly many instances of evidence suggesting one thing, and only one evidence suggesting the other, that becomes a clear example of an outlier.

Thank you for commenting.

I agree that even if the calculation itself was valid, that doesn't mean it can't be an outlier.

This seems to be fine.

Thank you for commenting.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You can argue as you like, but if your motivation for the argument is "We're strict elsewhere on the verse so we shouldn't be strict here" is a bit odd.

No no I'm saying we are so strict with the verse in general, that I feel less compelled to compromise, when the opposition won't compromise either. Take it as you will, it's my honest thoughts.

Either way, it's not canon to the verse as a whole so it cannot be used.

Also, I'm not saying the miles are a unit of area. I'm saying that the 200 spirit miles figure could be for the diameter of the area affected, and that area is 1/3rd of the area of the Seireitei, not 1/3rd of the diameter of Seireitei.

All the damage was within Seireitei, but regardless it supports Yoruichi's statement.

I don't think this should be looked at it in terms of statements vs. visuals. It can be drilled down to "1 piece of evidence contradicted by many pieces of evidence" and "1 piece of evidence contracted by many pieces of evidence."

In that sense, I don't consider this a false equivalence.

It's not 1 statement tho. It's multiple statements + visuals that are wildly inconsistent with either interpretation. Toneri's is 1 visual vs multiple. So it is a false equivalence,

The boundary not being visible doesn't mean it isn't there. Those scans aren't perfect visuals showing us the ground level up to the base of the mountains.

It's better than saying "I don't think it is in there".

It doesn't contradict the figure for the current calculation but it doesn't explicitly support it either.

It functions as a loose support.

That evidently wasn't an issue when the size of the meteor was calculated based on the visual of how far away it was from the Seireitei itself.

That's why we everyone agreed to use a calc that doesn't pixel compare the meteor to Seireitei... We specifically din't pixel scale the meteor to Seireitei, b/c Seireitei is drawn inconsistently.

 

[Damage3245]

That's why we everyone agreed to use a calc that doesn't pixel compare the meteor to Seireitei... We specifically din't pixel scale the meteor to Seireitei, b/c Seireitei is drawn inconsistently.

It doesn't matter if you're not pixelscaling it directly in comparison to the Seireitei itself; you're still relying on the visual with assuming that Kubo is proportioning the meteor to be the size it would be if it really was over 500 kilometers away. It is definitely relying on the "visuals" supplied to you by Kubo.

It's late for me over here, so I'll have to wait till tomorrow to continue and see what other thoughts staff members have in the meantime.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It doesn't matter if you're not pixelscaling it directly in comparison to the Seireitei itself; you're still relying on the visual with assuming that Kubo is proportioning the meteor to be the size it would be if it really was over 500 kilometers away. It is definitely relying on the "visuals" supplied to you by Kubo.

It's late for me over here, so I'll have to wait till tomorrow to continue and see what other thoughts staff members have in the meantime.

No we were using the knowledge that the meteor is outside Seireitei + it’s accepted size to ang size the meteor. Not relying on any visual of Seireitei.

 

[Damage3245]

WE DO knot ALWAYS LOVE YOU is certainly a canon novel.

https://j-books.shueisha.co.jp/ippuku/interview/matsubara03.html

Except for this part, I agree with all of your arguments.

This is a staff only thread. While I appreciate the agreement, please do not post here without permission. That goes for all users whether they agree or disagree with the thread.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Post in thread 'BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/ban-kai-bleach-general-discussion.107575/post-3941719

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As the main person who brought up this segment

For reference, an object 160 km above the Earth looks like this, and the highest clouds in recorded history vary from 76 to 85 km according to this.

As well as read the doc before the OP was posted, I agree with this fully.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Staff Only be damned, just seems to be a repeat of your last thread, Damage, but just with the staff only so you can't be overwhelmed with evidence at once.

---

Visuals Are Inconsistent

They are heavily inconsistent with one another while the statements are consistent and support a large Seireitei.
It's clearly obvious with Kubo's words that he intends for Seireitei to be huge; however, this can't be actually depicted with art so he repeatedly gives statements of a large size for Seireitei that I will bring up further down.

The largest piece of evidence for this is Kubo's own words on backgrounds and the existence of the Rukongai.

Rukongai

Never once in all the aerials of Seireitei (literally click the links Damage has given) do we see the Rukongai besides the Seireitei.

However, obviously that can't be true because we are told several times that the Rukongai lies directly outside the walls of Seireitei comprising of 320 districts with 80 in the North, 80 in the South, 80 in the East, and 80 in the West (I'll mention districts again later). None of the aerials show this, yet it is always said that it lies directly outside the walls and we are shown when they walk in the Rukongai that it is outside the walls. The aerials are inconsistent with each other and they do not even display what we know exist inside Seireitei (the mountains and other things I will explain further) and the things that exist directly outside the walls. I chalk it up to Kubo being lazy and not wanting to draw the aerials to scale and accurate as he has built his world to be, he consistently implies Seireitei is big and that the Rukongai is right outside which goes to my next point.

Small fact, Mayuri eliminated 28,000 souls from one of Rukongai's 64th District. There are 320 of these Districts.

Kubo Draws Very Little

Kubo doesn't even draw backgrounds, why would he keep drawing everything he states and consistently implies for the size of Seireitei to scale when the guy doesn't even draw backgrounds?

Kubo has literally said he avoids drawing too much like backgrounds because it takes focus away from what is important, the action and story.

Obviously his aerials are all inconsistent with each other because that's not his focus, thus he consistently states that it's big and has large things inside of it.

Too Inconsistent and Disregard Canon

First take the size of these scans and compare them to each other, not only are they not even consistent with each other, they literally ignore things that canonically exist in Seireitei and outside of it.

Yama's Division is a huge building that is not seen in any of the aerials.

Chojiro as buried on a hill that is above the normal buildings, yet no aerial shows it.

There are mountains directly located inside the Rukongai, yet only one aerial shows mountains right outside Seireitei.

That same aerial literally makes Seireitei look like 20 city blocks big. It's literally inconsistent with every other scan.

Literally the page after that has an aerial that contradicts it. These aerials are literally all inconsistent with each other.

Next page even makes it smaller than what we saw in the previous page. Should these aerials be taken as fact despite being inconsistent and ignoring canon statements and WoG?

This view of the Sokyoku literally contradicts every other view of it and makes it bigger than the majority of aerials.

This view is perhaps the best we have, but even it is inconsistent with this view. The Sokyoku and Senzaikyu are suppose to be the same size as Silbern (Silbern is the building with arches in the middle) and both are located in the center of Vandereich/Seireitei, yet when lined up, Seireitei and Vandereich's size are not even close to being the same when they are suppose to be the same size.

This view doesn't even show the Silbern, and many scans already show the Silbern tower over everything and put it at a size similar with the Sokyoku/Senzaikyu. So no, these aerials are not consistent with each other at all.

Those bushes that surround the Sokyoku are actually a giant forest with branches bigger than people, trunks bigger than people, and the forest itself is pretty damn big despite being the bushes around the Sokyoku. The aerials from outside sometimes show and sometimes don't show this forest, further proof of their inconsistency.

Also the meteor is pretty inconsistent, have you tried lining up the shots of the meteor with the visible Shakonmaku (the dome surrounding Seireitei)? They aren't even consistent with each other nor with other scans showing the Shakonmaku.

We have numerous scans that support Seireitei for being big and statements that Seireitei encompasses a huge area. We repeatedly get these facts and statements till the end of the series, yet the few aerials that exist also contradict each other and the canon facts that we know. So yeah, why stick with inconsistent visuals that we know Kubo does not care for than his own consistent statements and implications?

Mountains Are Inside Seireitei

This one is fairly obvious and actually has a statement for support.

First off, it is directly stated that the location for this area is The Seireitei and that it is the Training Grounds Behind Thirteenth Company's Barracks.

This is word confirmation that this area is located inside the Seireitei.

However, one of the two biggest reasonings that these mountains are inside the Seireitei and not outside is the fact that we cannot see the Seireiheki, the walls that surround Seireitei, they are not visible in this entire scene and a later scene 250 chapters later on in the series.

However, what I find to be the largest and undeniable piece of evidence for mountains existing in Seireitei are literally in a scan Damage linked himself that can be found in We Do knot Always Love You, where it's detailed that two characters travel mountainous terrain and even forests over several days while traveling inside the Seireitei itself. That is direct proof of not only mountains, but forests existing inside Seireitei.

This is just one of the 13 Division Barracks located inside of Seireitei. One Division is confirmed to have mountains inside of them and forests are confirmed inside the Seireitei as well.

The Divisions

The Divisions are huge and we know there are 13 of them. One Division have mountainous terrain and confirmation of forests. One of the forest is located in the 7th Division as that is where the "scent of a fellow wolf" is located, Sajin Komamura who stays in the 7th Division area which is the forest he is found in.

More supporting evidence of the size of these Divisions can be found in the series. All the Divisions at least have the three following: the Barracks for the Division, the Company for the Division (offices and living areas), and the Training Grounds (13th is confirmed to have mountains in their training grounds).

1st Division

It is confirmed to hold a prison under it, the prison is huge as it holds several layers in it as well which includes Muken which expands for a huge area as we all know, with hills and forests as well.

Shinji Hirako remarks how huge the 1st Division Barracks are, in comparison to his 5th Division most likely.

116 1st Division Members were guarding the Northern Gate of Seireitei (the white walls have 4 gates for the cardinal directions), the 1st Division is located closer towards the center of Seireitei near the Senzaikyu and Sokyoku. The Division is big and has a lot of members.

2nd Division

2nd Division is pretty big and perhaps one of the biggest. It not only houses the 2nd Division Barracks, Company, Training Grounds, but also the Secret Remote Squad which is further made up of 5 Divisions on it's own.

One of those 5 Divisions of the Secret Remote Squad has it's own seclude prison that it manages which is surrounded by a pretty large moat as well (250 feet wide). Kisuke Urahara ran this part of the Division.

It's got like a castle on a hill for it's Division Company too for some reason.

3rd Division

Not much is known besides Gin planting trees around this division.

It has a rather large open field (you can see the Japanese Kanji for 3 on the building) for it's Company which is apparently so large Toshiro's Shikai range fits inside just the 3rd Division area as there were no mentions from the other Divisions or Yamamoto of Toshiro's actions for using his Shikai and changing the weather in a 11.781 kilometer radius.

Still has it's training grounds, barracks, and company though.


4th Division

4th Division has a hospital inside of it as well as its usual Company, Barracks, and Training Grounds.

Not only that, it has a prison in it as well with at least 75 different cells in this prison.

5th Division

5th Company has a special prison (it held Izuru and Momo when they had drawn their weapons inside the Seireitei when it was illegal to do).

Besides that it has the usual Barracks, Company, and Training Grounds.

6th Division

You guessed it, it's own prison (held Renji and Rukia when Renji lost to Ichigo by order of Byakuya and Rukia after being detained from the Real World).

Also seems to have a more rich area unlike the other Divisions (most likely due to Byakuya being rich).

Then the usual 3 areas of a Division as well.

7th Division

This is Komamura's Division which I already linked a statement above that showed it having a forest and mountainous terrain being crossed to enter it's forest.

Then the usual 3 areas of the Division as well.

8th Division

Not much is known besides the Soul Reapers Women's Meeting occurring here and that it has a huge courtyard.

Then the usual 3 areas of the Division as well.

9th Division

It holds the editorial and news publishing department for Seireitei.

Then the usual 3 areas.

10th Division

We've seen nothing of this Division, we just know it monitors Nariyuki City.

The usual 3 areas as well.

11th Division

We know nothing about 11th Division's area.

12th Division

This one is big because of the Shinigami Research and Development Institute being located inside the Division as Kisuke founded it upon the Division.

The SRDI is big, they use elevators for the different levels and even institutes as the SRDI is further divided into different sections.

It even has factory stations on the surface.

On top of all of this is, Mayuri used his Bankai inside the Division which has a poison radius of near 200 meters (Viz mistranslated this line) and just like with Toshiro's Shikai range this poison did not affect the other Divisions nor was there mentions from Yamamoto or other Divisions of the poison affecting them.

This Division is big and still has the usual 3 areas of the Training Grounds, Barracks, and Company.

13th Division

There's still more here, besides the already confirmed mountains inside this Division, it also has a lake in it for Captain Ukitake.

Conclusion

The 13 Divisions are all pretty damn huge with large areas and cut into different sections. There are 13 of them and they all exist inside the Seireitei despite their large sizes and the fact that they don't make up the entirety of the Seireitei as it still has other sections and districts that I will be going over down the thread.

It's big as ****.

Other Notable Landmarks

There is more besides the Divisions, mountains, forests and etc. that I've covered so far.

Cities

Hisagi states that he feels Yamamoto's Reiatsu coming from "The Third Old City"

This should be notable given that Hisagi is incredibly weakened right here and Yamamoto is going all out flexing his Reiatsu in Shikai, Hisagi being weakened due to his Reiryoku and Reiatsu being drained by Yumichika previously should have dampened Reiatsu sensing. Yet he could still sense Yamamoto's Reiatsu and was fine sensing it.

Nanao in the presence of an angry base Yamamoto was immediately incapacitated by his Reiatsu that Kyoraku had to shunpo her away from his Reiatsu and back in the same page, Yamamoto even praised his speed. Where the math comes in, during the fight between Aizen and the Captains, Yamamoto's Reiatsu was crushing and killing Hollows from over 13 miles away, possibly closer to 15-16 miles, as they were centered in Karakura Town.
"How do you know it was Yamamoto's Reiatsu?" Yamamoto is the most powerful person in Bleach at this point and even Aizen had admitted this.

So Hisagi would have to have been miles away from Yamamoto and the city he was in to have sensed Yama at all without suffering from the negative effects like Nanao.

So Seireitei has multiple cities located inside of it and they are huge as well.

Mansions / Living Areas

There are a lot of these for some reason.

Byakuya and Omaeda both have mansions due to wealth and nobility; however, they aren't the only ones as well (there are 4 Noble Families which Omaeda is not part of).

Byakuya's mansion is big.
Has a stream going through it.
Has a large open area located on it's grounds for graves.
Large enough for races down it's corridors and secret meetings to be held without Byakuya knowing given it's size.
Has secret compartments, giant fields, and personal guards for it's grounds.
It's just huge in general.


Oh yeah, and the scarf Byakuya is always wearing could buy 10 more mansions that are in the Seireitei. So there are more of these giant mansions besides Byakuya's Omaeda's, and the 3 other Royal Families.

These mansions all fit alongside the 13 Divisions, mountains, forests, cities, and other landmarks I will mention.


Stores / Departments

There's a lot of these.

Omaeda has jewelry and metal factories and stores with employees of course.

There are fashion departments / stores.

Restaurants and random food stores (Rangiku mentions meat/soba bun stores and liquor stores as well).

Canals

Canals and rivers exist under Seireitei.

Kido Corps Division

There is another entire Division solely for Kido Corps.

Forest

Besides the forest located in the 7th Division, we are told there are forest(s), plural, and we do know of the forest surrounding the Sokyoku that I mentioned earlier:

Those bushes that surround the Sokyoku are actually a giant forest with branches bigger than people, trunks bigger than people, and the forest itself is pretty damn big despite being the bushes around the Sokyoku.

Soul Reaper Academy

Obviously there is a Soul Reaper Academy.

Academies have to have dorms for their student body.

The student body is huge given it has 6th years in its school. My university is a 4 year university and it has a student body of over 30,000 for instance and 11,000 in Graduate school (Berkeley).

Conclusion

All of this exists inside of the Seireitei together alongside the already huge 13 Divisions.

It's big as ****.

Timeframes and Travel Time

Seireitei is huge and it's big enough that people can literally not see each other for over 40 years.

Todo was ordered by Kensei to go straight from their location in the Rukongai's West Fugai's 6th District to Kisuke in the 12th Division SRDI; however, Tendo was in a hurry and did not delay yet it took him from morning to midnight to go back and forth these two points from the Rukongai and Seireitei.

Another good example would be the entirety off the Soul Society arc. Ichigo's entire group was running around Seireitei trying to find Rukia for several days (over 5) and were making no ground despite their endurance (Ichigo and Uryu training non-stop for several days straight) and superhuman speed.

Yoruichi's 40 day statement can be included here.

The Wolf Cubs several day traveling statement over mountainous terrain and forests can be included here.

Seireitei is huge and Kubo has consistently portrayed it to be so massive it takes a long time to get around to travel through it.

Its big as ****.


The Vandenreich is a Country

Yhwach's empire is literally sectioned into territories.

His Empire is literally referred to as a country and considers Seireitei as another country ("not this country").

Yhwach's Empire is the same size as the Seireitei, it existed in it's shadows.

Yhwach's Empire = Country

Seireitei = Country

Vandenreich = Seireitei

Country = Vandenreich

Seireitei is a country in statement.

Its big as ****

Seireitei is Comprised of Districts

There are numerous statements of Districts existing inside of Seireitei (Kubo has already given confirmation of 320 districts for the Rukongai and numerous statements of specific Districts in the Rukongai). The Seireitei has a lot more than the Rukongai with the numbers we have and these District statements go as far back as the Soul Society Arc (always with a number and cardinal direction as the Rukongai Districts are).

Seireitei's West section has at least 601 Districts which means Seireitei in total has at least 2404 Districts as it works with Cardinal directions and is a perfect circle.

For context, irl Japan only has 480 districts despite how large of a country it is (Seireitei is based off of Japan as well), ironically Lord_Xcano and I found the math behind Japan's irl district and Seireitei's district size with Yoruichi's statement line up almost perfectly. That size is not far off from the size taken from Fade to Black's size statement as well.

Remember, these 2404 Districts fit inside of Seireitei with it's mansions, cities, forests, lakes, mountains, Divisions, prisons, and etc. and etc.

Its big as ****.

Final Conclusion

Seireitei is huge as **** and it's getting tiring having to put up with Damage try every 4 months to regurgitate his same failed talking points to downgrade Bleach because of his personal bias.

There is literally too much context, implication, statements, and actual landmarks inside of Seireitei that Kubo is consistent with to disregard them all entirely for aerials that are literally not consistent with one another that disregard actual canon landmarks like the entire existence of the Rukongai and the mountains, mansions, forests, cities, districts, hills, buildings, prisons, towers, Divisions, factories, and etc. inside of the Seireitei.

A discussion rule needs to be made about this because it's getting annoying having to only put up with one user, a staff member, repeatedly try and fail to downgrade this every 4 months only to be disproven every time.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Stellar work IMade, thanks for the input. This tickles my fancy on god.

Highly consistent statements >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highly inconsistent visuals, it shouldn't be a question.

 

[Purgy]

Spoiler

Don't really care that this is a staff only thread since it really shouldn't be and is just an attempt by Damage to reduce any counters to his weak argument, delete my post if you wish to be that petty about it.

IMade showing exactly why he's the best Bleach supporter on this site.

Fully agree with his post and it sucks that he even needed to make such a detailed post to counter these rehashed arguments, as he said, a discussion rule is critical at this point since Damage clearly refuses to let go of the fact that he's wrong.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Was talking with Cyber and he brought up an excellent point that a lot of the shots of Seireitei are forced perspective shots. You can read what Cyber said to understand what a forced perspective is.

Just felt it should be added in conjunction with IMade’s debunk of damage’s claim.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll be responding to IMade later today when I have time.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

Staff Only be damned, just seems to be a repeat of your last thread, Damage, but just with the staff only so you can't be overwhelmed with evidence at once.

---

Visuals Are Inconsistent

They are heavily inconsistent with one another while the statements are consistent and support a large Seireitei.
It's clearly obvious with Kubo's words that he intends for Seireitei to be huge; however, this can't be actually depicted with art so he repeatedly gives statements of a large size for Seireitei that I will bring up further down.

The largest piece of evidence for this is Kubo's own words on backgrounds and the existence of the Rukongai.

Rukongai

Never once in all the aerials of Seireitei (literally click the links Damage has given) do we see the Rukongai besides the Seireitei.

However, obviously that can't be true because we are told several times that the Rukongai lies directly outside the walls of Seireitei comprising of 320 districts with 80 in the North, 80 in the South, 80 in the East, and 80 in the West (I'll mention districts again later). None of the aerials show this, yet it is always said that it lies directly outside the walls and we are shown when they walk in the Rukongai that it is outside the walls. The aerials are inconsistent with each other and they do not even display what we know exist inside Seireitei (the mountains and other things I will explain further) and the things that exist directly outside the walls. I chalk it up to Kubo being lazy and not wanting to draw the aerials to scale and accurate as he has built his world to be, he consistently implies Seireitei is big and that the Rukongai is right outside which goes to my next point.

Small fact, Mayuri eliminated 28,000 souls from one of Rukongai's 64th District. There are 320 of these Districts.

Kubo Draws Very Little

Kubo doesn't even draw backgrounds, why would he keep drawing everything he states and consistently implies for the size of Seireitei to scale when the guy doesn't even draw backgrounds?

Kubo has literally said he avoids drawing too much like backgrounds because it takes focus away from what is important, the action and story.

Obviously his aerials are all inconsistent with each other because that's not his focus, thus he consistently states that it's big and has large things inside of it.

Too Inconsistent and Disregard Canon

First take the size of these scans and compare them to each other, not only are they not even consistent with each other, they literally ignore things that canonically exist in Seireitei and outside of it.

Yama's Division is a huge building that is not seen in any of the aerials.

Chojiro as buried on a hill that is above the normal buildings, yet no aerial shows it.

There are mountains directly located inside the Rukongai, yet only one aerial shows mountains right outside Seireitei.

That same aerial literally makes Seireitei look like 20 city blocks big. It's literally inconsistent with every other scan.

Literally the page after that has an aerial that contradicts it. These aerials are literally all inconsistent with each other.

Next page even makes it smaller than what we saw in the previous page. Should these aerials be taken as fact despite being inconsistent and ignoring canon statements and WoG?

This view of the Sokyoku literally contradicts every other view of it and makes it bigger than the majority of aerials.

This view is perhaps the best we have, but even it is inconsistent with this view. The Sokyoku and Senzaikyu are suppose to be the same size as Silbern (Silbern is the building with arches in the middle) and both are located in the center of Vandereich/Seireitei, yet when lined up, Seireitei and Vandereich's size are not even close to being the same when they are suppose to be the same size.

This view doesn't even show the Silbern, and many scans already show the Silbern tower over everything and put it at a size similar with the Sokyoku/Senzaikyu. So no, these aerials are not consistent with each other at all.

Those bushes that surround the Sokyoku are actually a giant forest with branches bigger than people, trunks bigger than people, and the forest itself is pretty damn big despite being the bushes around the Sokyoku. The aerials from outside sometimes show and sometimes don't show this forest, further proof of their inconsistency.

Also the meteor is pretty inconsistent, have you tried lining up the shots of the meteor with the visible Shakonmaku (the dome surrounding Seireitei)? They aren't even consistent with each other nor with other scans showing the Shakonmaku.

We have numerous scans that support Seireitei for being big and statements that Seireitei encompasses a huge area. We repeatedly get these facts and statements till the end of the series, yet the few aerials that exist also contradict each other and the canon facts that we know. So yeah, why stick with inconsistent visuals that we know Kubo does not care for than his own consistent statements and implications?

Mountains Are Inside Seireitei

This one is fairly obvious and actually has a statement for support.

First off, it is directly stated that the location for this area is The Seireitei and that it is the Training Grounds Behind Thirteenth Company's Barracks.

This is word confirmation that this area is located inside the Seireitei.

However, one of the two biggest reasonings that these mountains are inside the Seireitei and not outside is the fact that we cannot see the Seireiheki, the walls that surround Seireitei, they are not visible in this entire scene and a later scene 250 chapters later on in the series.

However, what I find to be the largest and undeniable piece of evidence for mountains existing in Seireitei are literally in a scan Damage linked himself that can be found in We Do knot Always Love You, where it's detailed that two characters travel mountainous terrain and even forests over several days while traveling inside the Seireitei itself. That is direct proof of not only mountains, but forests existing inside Seireitei.

This is just one of the 13 Division Barracks located inside of Seireitei. One Division is confirmed to have mountains inside of them and forests are confirmed inside the Seireitei as well.

The Divisions

The Divisions are huge and we know there are 13 of them. One Division have mountainous terrain and confirmation of forests. One of the forest is located in the 7th Division as that is where the "scent of a fellow wolf" is located, Sajin Komamura who stays in the 7th Division area which is the forest he is found in.

More supporting evidence of the size of these Divisions can be found in the series. All the Divisions at least have the three following: the Barracks for the Division, the Company for the Division (offices and living areas), and the Training Grounds (13th is confirmed to have mountains in their training grounds).

1st Division

It is confirmed to hold a prison under it, the prison is huge as it holds several layers in it as well which includes Muken which expands for a huge area as we all know, with hills and forests as well.

Shinji Hirako remarks how huge the 1st Division Barracks are, in comparison to his 5th Division most likely.

116 1st Division Members were guarding the Northern Gate of Seireitei (the white walls have 4 gates for the cardinal directions), the 1st Division is located closer towards the center of Seireitei near the Senzaikyu and Sokyoku. The Division is big and has a lot of members.

2nd Division

2nd Division is pretty big and perhaps one of the biggest. It not only houses the 2nd Division Barracks, Company, Training Grounds, but also the Secret Remote Squad which is further made up of 5 Divisions on it's own.

One of those 5 Divisions of the Secret Remote Squad has it's own seclude prison that it manages which is surrounded by a pretty large moat as well (250 feet wide). Kisuke Urahara ran this part of the Division.

It's got like a castle on a hill for it's Division Company too for some reason.

3rd Division

Not much is known besides Gin planting trees around this division.

It has a rather large open field (you can see the Japanese Kanji for 3 on the building) for it's Company which is apparently so large Toshiro's Shikai range fits inside just the 3rd Division area as there were no mentions from the other Divisions or Yamamoto of Toshiro's actions for using his Shikai and changing the weather in a 11.781 kilometer radius.

Still has it's training grounds, barracks, and company though.


4th Division

4th Division has a hospital inside of it as well as its usual Company, Barracks, and Training Grounds.

Not only that, it has a prison in it as well with at least 75 different cells in this prison.

5th Division

5th Company has a special prison (it held Izuru and Momo when they had drawn their weapons inside the Seireitei when it was illegal to do).

Besides that it has the usual Barracks, Company, and Training Grounds.

6th Division

You guessed it, it's own prison (held Renji and Rukia when Renji lost to Ichigo by order of Byakuya and Rukia after being detained from the Real World).

Also seems to have a more rich area unlike the other Divisions (most likely due to Byakuya being rich).

Then the usual 3 areas of a Division as well.

7th Division

This is Komamura's Division which I already linked a statement above that showed it having a forest and mountainous terrain being crossed to enter it's forest.

Then the usual 3 areas of the Division as well.

8th Division

Not much is known besides the Soul Reapers Women's Meeting occurring here and that it has a huge courtyard.

Then the usual 3 areas of the Division as well.

9th Division

It holds the editorial and news publishing department for Seireitei.

Then the usual 3 areas.

10th Division

We've seen nothing of this Division, we just know it monitors Nariyuki City.

The usual 3 areas as well.

11th Division

We know nothing about 11th Division's area.

12th Division

This one is big because of the Shinigami Research and Development Institute being located inside the Division as Kisuke founded it upon the Division.

The SRDI is big, they use elevators for the different levels and even institutes as the SRDI is further divided into different sections.

It even has factory stations on the surface.

On top of all of this is, Mayuri used his Bankai inside the Division which has a poison radius of near 200 meters (Viz mistranslated this line) and just like with Toshiro's Shikai range this poison did not affect the other Divisions nor was there mentions from Yamamoto or other Divisions of the poison affecting them.

This Division is big and still has the usual 3 areas of the Training Grounds, Barracks, and Company.

13th Division

There's still more here, besides the already confirmed mountains inside this Division, it also has a lake in it for Captain Ukitake.

Conclusion

The 13 Divisions are all pretty damn huge with large areas and cut into different sections. There are 13 of them and they all exist inside the Seireitei despite their large sizes and the fact that they don't make up the entirety of the Seireitei as it still has other sections and districts that I will be going over down the thread.

It's big as ****.

Other Notable Landmarks

There is more besides the Divisions, mountains, forests and etc. that I've covered so far.

Cities

Hisagi states that he feels Yamamoto's Reiatsu coming from "The Third Old City"

This should be notable given that Hisagi is incredibly weakened right here and Yamamoto is going all out flexing his Reiatsu in Shikai, Hisagi being weakened due to his Reiryoku and Reiatsu being drained by Yumichika previously should have dampened Reiatsu sensing. Yet he could still sense Yamamoto's Reiatsu and was fine sensing it.

Nanao in the presence of an angry base Yamamoto was immediately incapacitated by his Reiatsu that Kyoraku had to shunpo her away from his Reiatsu and back in the same page, Yamamoto even praised his speed. Where the math comes in, during the fight between Aizen and the Captains, Yamamoto's Reiatsu was crushing and killing Hollows from over 13 miles away, possibly closer to 15-16 miles, as they were centered in Karakura Town.
"How do you know it was Yamamoto's Reiatsu?" Yamamoto is the most powerful person in Bleach at this point and even Aizen had admitted this.

So Hisagi would have to have been miles away from Yamamoto and the city he was in to have sensed Yama at all without suffering from the negative effects like Nanao.

So Seireitei has multiple cities located inside of it and they are huge as well.

Mansions / Living Areas

There are a lot of these for some reason.

Byakuya and Omaeda both have mansions due to wealth and nobility; however, they aren't the only ones as well (there are 4 Noble Families which Omaeda is not part of).

Byakuya's mansion is big.
Has a stream going through it.
Has a large open area located on it's grounds for graves.
Large enough for races down it's corridors and secret meetings to be held without Byakuya knowing given it's size.
Has secret compartments, giant fields, and personal guards for it's grounds.
It's just huge in general.


Oh yeah, and the scarf Byakuya is always wearing could buy 10 more mansions that are in the Seireitei. So there are more of these giant mansions besides Byakuya's Omaeda's, and the 3 other Royal Families.

These mansions all fit alongside the 13 Divisions, mountains, forests, cities, and other landmarks I will mention.


Stores / Departments

There's a lot of these.

Omaeda has jewelry and metal factories and stores with employees of course.

There are fashion departments / stores.

Restaurants and random food stores (Rangiku mentions meat/soba bun stores and liquor stores as well).

Canals

Canals and rivers exist under Seireitei.

Kido Corps Division

There is another entire Division solely for Kido Corps.

Forest

Besides the forest located in the 7th Division, we are told there are forest(s), plural, and we do know of the forest surrounding the Sokyoku that I mentioned earlier:

Those bushes that surround the Sokyoku are actually a giant forest with branches bigger than people, trunks bigger than people, and the forest itself is pretty damn big despite being the bushes around the Sokyoku.

Soul Reaper Academy

Obviously there is a Soul Reaper Academy.

Academies have to have dorms for their student body.

The student body is huge given it has 6th years in its school. My university is a 4 year university and it has a student body of over 30,000 for instance and 11,000 in Graduate school (Berkeley).

Conclusion

All of this exists inside of the Seireitei together alongside the already huge 13 Divisions.

It's big as ****.

Timeframes and Travel Time

Seireitei is huge and it's big enough that people can literally not see each other for over 40 years.

Todo was ordered by Kensei to go straight from their location in the Rukongai's West Fugai's 6th District to Kisuke in the 12th Division SRDI; however, Tendo was in a hurry and did not delay yet it took him from morning to midnight to go back and forth these two points from the Rukongai and Seireitei.

Another good example would be the entirety off the Soul Society arc. Ichigo's entire group was running around Seireitei trying to find Rukia for several days (over 5) and were making no ground despite their endurance (Ichigo and Uryu training non-stop for several days straight) and superhuman speed.

Yoruichi's 40 day statement can be included here.

The Wolf Cubs several day traveling statement over mountainous terrain and forests can be included here.

Seireitei is huge and Kubo has consistently portrayed it to be so massive it takes a long time to get around to travel through it.

Its big as ****.


The Vandenreich is a Country

Yhwach's empire is literally sectioned into territories.

His Empire is literally referred to as a country and considers Seireitei as another country ("not this country").

Yhwach's Empire is the same size as the Seireitei, it existed in it's shadows.

Yhwach's Empire = Country

Seireitei = Country

Vandenreich = Seireitei

Country = Vandenreich

Seireitei is a country in statement.

Its big as ****

Seireitei is Comprised of Districts

There are numerous statements of Districts existing inside of Seireitei (Kubo has already given confirmation of 320 districts for the Rukongai and numerous statements of specific Districts in the Rukongai). The Seireitei has a lot more than the Rukongai with the numbers we have and these District statements go as far back as the Soul Society Arc (always with a number and cardinal direction as the Rukongai Districts are).

Seireitei's West section has at least 601 Districts which means Seireitei in total has at least 2404 Districts as it works with Cardinal directions and is a perfect circle.

For context, irl Japan only has 480 districts despite how large of a country it is (Seireitei is based off of Japan as well), ironically Lord_Xcano and I found the math behind Japan's irl district and Seireitei's district size with Yoruichi's statement line up almost perfectly. That size is not far off from the size taken from Fade to Black's size statement as well.

Remember, these 2404 Districts fit inside of Seireitei with it's mansions, cities, forests, lakes, mountains, Divisions, prisons, and etc. and etc.

Its big as ****.

Final Conclusion

Seireitei is huge as **** and it's getting tiring having to put up with Damage try every 4 months to regurgitate his same failed talking points to downgrade Bleach because of his personal bias.

There is literally too much context, implication, statements, and actual landmarks inside of Seireitei that Kubo is consistent with to disregard them all entirely for aerials that are literally not consistent with one another that disregard actual canon landmarks like the entire existence of the Rukongai and the mountains, mansions, forests, cities, districts, hills, buildings, prisons, towers, Divisions, factories, and etc. inside of the Seireitei.

A discussion rule needs to be made about this because it's getting annoying having to only put up with one user, a staff member, repeatedly try and fail to downgrade this every 4 months only to be disproven every time.

Couldn’t have said it better, not just with the evidence but also the same thing about this repeatedly being made, only to get debunked over and over again, and the same staff member is getting debunked. Good arguments here man.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Yeah, I agree with IMade, man dropped an insanely solid argument

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out IMade.

 

[Damage3245]

Sorry for the wait.

Visuals are Inconsistent​

However, obviously that can't be true because we are told several times that the Rukongai lies directly outside the walls of Seireitei comprising of 320 districts with 80 in the North, 80 in the South, 80 in the East, and 80 in the West (I'll mention districts again later). None of the aerials show this, yet it is always said that it lies directly outside the walls and we are shown when they walk in the Rukongai that it is outside the walls. The aerials are inconsistent with each other and they do not even display what we know exist inside Seireitei (the mountains and other things I will explain further) and the things that exist directly outside the walls. I chalk it up to Kubo being lazy and not wanting to draw the aerials to scale and accurate as he has built his world to be, he consistently implies Seireitei is big and that the Rukongai is right outside which goes to my next point.

This is an issue, it is true.

So far as I’m aware the only instance we have of the Rukongai having buildings directly up against the walls of the Seireitei is at the beginning of the Soul Society arc. Kubo has gone on consistently from there to show that though the Rukongai surrounds the Seireitei, it isn’t directly pressed up against it.

One possible answer is that Kubo softly retconned this over time after the initial introduction of the Seireitei and Rukongai.

First take the size of these scans and compare them to each other, not only are they not even consistent with each other, they literally ignore things that canonically exist in Seireitei and outside of it.

Consistency doesn’t mean that the visuals have to be 100% perfectly the same. I already acknowledged that there’s going to be some variation among them.

The point is that if you look at all of the different visuals, you can at least get an “average visual” from the lot of them and that visual is way, way below the calculated figure for the size of Seireitei.

Why doesn’t a single one of these visuals support the 1000 kilometer figure for the diameter of the Seireitei?

Even if we accept that these visuals aren’t perfect because they omit certain structures from view, the main issue here is the size, not the presence of the structures.

That same aerial literally makes Seireitei look like 20 city blocks big. It's literally inconsistent with every other scan.

This is an outlier in the other direction, I agree. I included it for the sake of completion but I think it goes without saying that this is not the sole visual I would choose to use as highest priority.

Mountains are inside Seireitei​

First off, it is directly stated that the location for this area is The Seireitei and that it is the Training Grounds Behind Thirteenth Company's Barracks.

The location for where Ukitake is, yes. That doesn’t mean that the mountains are included in that.

Ukitake can be sitting inside the Seireitei, near the edge.

However, one of the two biggest reasonings that these mountains are inside the Seireitei and not outside is the fact that we cannot see the Seireiheki, the walls that surround Seireitei, they are not visible in this entire scene and a later scene 250 chapters later on in the series.

That’s because we don’t have a shot at the base of the mountains. The wall is not extremely high and as you’ve already pointed out, sometimes in visuals we don’t see certain landmarks even though they exist. So the wall not being featured in those panels isn’t objective proof that the mountains have to be inside the confines of the walls.

The Divisions​

Forgive me for not addressing every single line here, but a lot of these pieces of information aren’t helpful for determining the actual size of the Seireitei itself.

The 4th Division having a hospital in it, the 8th Division having a courtyard, the 13th Division having a pond in it… I know that listing the large number of buildings within the Seireitei gives an impression of size and I agree that the Seireitei can be considered to be vaguely “big”, but most of these structures don’t have a confirmed size.

Listing all of these features of the Division isn’t proof of the current calculation. You could say “The divisions having all these things in them support that the Seireitei is 1000 kilometers across” but you could say the same thing if the Seireitei was 500 kilometers across or 10,000 kilometers across.

Other Notable Landmarks​

So Hisagi would have to have been miles away from Yamamoto and the city he was in to have sensed Yama at all without suffering from the negative effects like Nanao.

Or Hisagi could just be stronger than Nanao, so this is a moot point.

Hisagi states that he feels Yamamoto's Reiatsu coming from "The Third Old City"

Calling it an “Old City” doesn’t give us an exact size value.

As for the rest of the points such as there being underground canals, mansions, department stores, the Soul Reaper Academy, etc. This is the same as stating just how many features there are of the Divisions up above. We still don’t know the exact area these divisions cover, and we aren’t given quantities for just how many mansions or stores there are, or the size of the canals, or the area of the Academy, etc.

The information, by itself, is not useful for rejecting or supporting the calculation. I can’t “refute” the existence of these structures and I don’t see the need to do so. Acknowledging that all of these structures exist does not prove that the calculation is valid to use.

Timeframes and Travel Time​

Seireitei is huge and it's big enough that people can literally not see each other for over 40 years.

Not an exact size. We don’t know what their activities are over 40 years. If neither of them regularly left their own division, or if they spent a lot of their time outside the Seireitei killing Hollows, then it’s no surprise that their paths wouldn’t cross.

Todo was ordered by Kensei to go straight from their location in the Rukongai's West Fugai's 6th District to Kisuke in the 12th Division SRDI; however, Tendo was in a hurry and did not delay yet it took him from morning to midnight to go back and forth these two points from the Rukongai and Seireitei.

So in other words he traveled an unknown distance out into the Rukongai? This isn’t a good point. Getting a distance between a random point in the Seireitei and a random point outside the Seireitei doesn’t demonstrate how big the Seireitei is itself.

Another good example would be the entirety off the Soul Society arc. Ichigo's entire group was running around Seireitei trying to find Rukia for several days (over 5) and were making no ground despite their endurance (Ichigo and Uryu training non-stop for several days straight) and superhuman speed.

Didn’t they spend a large chunk of that time training, hiding or engaged in battles?

The Vandenreich is a Country​

Yhwach's empire is literally sectioned into territories.
His Empire is literally referred to as a country and considers Seireitei as another country ("not this country").

This was the old Quincy empire ruled by Yhwach before the war with the Shinigami. After the war, when Yhwach was defeated, they had to go into hiding, meaning that the previous empire (with the territories you mention) no longer belonged to them.

They created the Wandenreich to hide in.

Yhwach's Empire is the same size as the Seireitei, it existed in it's shadows.

Yes, the Wandenreich is the same size as the Seireitei. No, there is no reason to think it was as big as it was before.

Also, there is no minimum size requirement for a “Country” or an “Empire”. The Seireitei was also called a “Town” in the past. I don’t think these terms help us actually determine the size.

Seireitei is Comprised of Districts​

There are numerous statements of Districts existing inside of Seireitei (Kubo has already given confirmation of 320 districts for the Rukongai and numerous statements of specific Districts in the Rukongai). The Seireitei has a lot more than the Rukongai with the numbers we have and these District statements go as far back as the Soul Society Arc (always with a number and cardinal direction as the Rukongai Districts are).

Seireitei's West section has at least 601 Districts which means Seireitei in total has at least 2404 Districts as it works with Cardinal directions and is a perfect circle.

The series doesn’t tell us how big these districts are. While you can assume they’re comparable to IRL Japanese districts, this isn’t confirmed as far as I’m aware.

Seireitei is huge as **** and it's getting tiring having to put up with Damage try every 4 months to regurgitate his same failed talking points to downgrade Bleach because of his personal bias.

This thread has new points that weren’t on the previous thread like the cloud height and Ichigo’s attempt to enter the Seireitei from above.

I notice that you didn’t address either of these new points.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This thread has new points that weren’t on the previous thread like the cloud height and Ichigo’s attempt to enter the Seireitei from above.

The fact Ichigo can travel from Reiokyu to Seireitei without a space suit proves that the atmosphere of the planet within Soul Society is tremendously larger than Earth’s irl atmosphere. Which debunks the whole notion of using irl cloud heights to limit Seireitei’s size.

Since we accept he travelled at Mach 1 for ~9 hours, the breathable atmosphere would be ~11000 kilometers, Earth’s breathable atmosphere is ~6 kilometers.

The series doesn’t tell us how big these districts are. While you can assume they’re comparable to IRL Japanese districts, this isn’t confirmed as far as I’m aware.

Considering the author is Japanese and based his setting of Soul Society off of Japan, it is highly likely they’re similar to Japanese districts. Nothing implies otherwise.

Districts are also described as their own individual towns, supporting IMade’s claim, and justifying the size statements even more than the highly inconsistent visuals.

 

[Damage3245]

The fact Ichigo can travel from Reiokyu to Seireitei without a space suit proves that the atmosphere of the planet within Soul Society is tremendously larger than Earth’s irl atmosphere. Which debunks the whole notion of using irl cloud heights to limit Seireitei’s size.

The Reiokyu is a separate dimension. I haven't seen anything indicating that the entire atmosphere of Soul Society extends to a height of 11,000 km (which would create incredible pressure at ground level). Ichigo travelling that distance through breathable atmosphere is likely because he's travelling the route between Reiokyu and Seireitei & crossing the barriers separating the two locations.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Here’s a wiki link on forced perspectives

Forced perspective - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They can make things look larger or smaller than they actually are.

Again being that these forced perspectives can make Seireitei appear different from it’s true size. Further supporting the idea of inconsistent visuals.

The Reiokyu is a separate dimension. I haven't seen anything indicating that the entire atmosphere of Soul Society extends to a height of 11,000 km (which would create incredible pressure at ground level). Ichigo travelling that distance through breathable atmosphere is likely because he's travelling the route between Reiokyu and Seireitei & crossing the barriers separating the two locations.

Considering Gerard can fall from Reiokyu to Seireitei, there isn’t anything pointing to a “special path” that is taken when traveling between the two.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It appears I’ve made a blunder, the accepted Reiokyu Seireitei distance is 48000 km not 11000 km, it’s bigger than I thought.

 

[Damage3245]

Again being that these forced perspectives can make Seireitei appear different from it’s true size. Further supporting the idea of inconsistent visuals.

Which ones are forced perspectives? Are you arguing that all of them are forced perspectives?

It appears I’ve made a blunder, the accepted Reiokyu Seireitei distance is 48000 km not 11000 km, it’s bigger than I thought.

How can the Soul Society be a mirror image of Earth but have an atmosphere 48,000 km thick? The physics involved there make zero sense.

Considering Gerard can fall from Reiokyu to Seireitei, there isn’t anything pointing to a “special path” that is taken when traveling between the two.

Gerard would be falling down through the path from Reiokyu to Seireitei. That doesn't mean it extends to the rest of the planet.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I just want to clarify I still agree with IMade, I don’t trust the artwork to properly display such a massively sized area, that’s a common problem in a lot of manga, portraying the size of something innacuratly, like Black Clover, God of Highschool, and Naruto do that all the time, IMade clearly showed that the artwork is also contradicting canon knowledge about the Seireitei, so when the artwork isn’t reliable size wise, using only the statements provided to find a size of the Seireitei is the best option IMO

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Which ones are forced perspectives? Are you arguing that all of them are forced perspectives?

What Mitch said. I’m saying that forced perspectives add to the inconsistencies of using visuals to determine its size. Meanwhile all the statements are self-consistent with each other.

 

[Damage3245]

What Mitch said. I’m saying that forced perspectives add to the inconsistencies of using visuals to determine its size. Meanwhile all the statements are self-consistent with each other.

"All of the statements" as if it isn't just two travel statements, one from the manga and one from the novel.

I haven't seen any evidence of forced perspectives in the panels themselves.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Also this art inconsistency problem of not properly portraying the size of something big is kinda the same reason we don’t pixel scale planets, because the artwork can be extremely inconsistent

So this is no different

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

"All of the statements" as if it isn't just two travel statements, one from the manga and one from the novel.

I haven't seen any evidence of forced perspectives in the panels themselves.

You read IMade’s post right? He prolly linked 50+ statements all supporting a massive sized Seireitei.

The evidence is that Seireitei’s visuals contradict consistent statements.

 

[Damage3245]

You read IMade’s post right? He prolly linked 50+ statements all supporting a massive sized Seireitei.

I don't consider a statement along the lines of "The Division 4 has a hospital in its grounds" to mean "The Seireitei has a diameter of at least 1000 kilometers".

Sure, I guess you can look at it as "The existence of the hospital doesn't contradict a diameter of 1000 kilometers, therefore it is consistent with Yoruichi's statement" but I can't agree.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't consider a statement along the lines of "The Division 4 has a hospital in its grounds" to mean "The Seireitei has a diameter of at least 1000 kilometers".

Sure, I guess you can look at it as "The existence of the hospital doesn't contradict a diameter of 1000 kilometers, therefore it is consistent with Yoruichi's statement" but I can't agree.

Then you missed the point because we have statements implying all 13 divisions are massive + more districts than Japan + various massive sized statements -> all indicating a massive size Seireitei.

I don’t know why we don’t use FtB’s statement, it’s our most direct statement, Kubo worked on, drafted, and approved the movie. So it’s not like the number came from nowhere.

But regardless we use statements over visuals for large sizes with verses like Black Clover because visuals are inconsistent. Literal same case here.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

"All of the statements" as if it isn't just two travel statements, one from the manga and one from the novel.

I haven't seen any evidence of forced perspectives in the panels themselves.

Well it’s been established that the artwork of the Seireitei is inconsistent with the canon statements of the Seireitei, so since that’s been established, using the artwork of the Seireitei to properly determine its size is innacurate, therefore using the statements about the Seireitei to scale its size is the best we can do

Unless there’s another method

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just a heads up, most of the issues are with Serreitei are less about the width/diameter surface area of Seireitei's domain and more about the height of the glass like dome surrounding it, at least 2 thirds of the Dome's height should visibly appear in outer space. Also, I really isn't that hard to displace a country sized city, it Kubo would just need to draw an image of the planet where Seireitei is visible in outer space with the naked eye.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Shakonmaku is stated to be a sphere… it’s a sphere.

The only reason it being a sphere and thus share a height with Seireitei’s radius would be a problem is because Gremmy’s recent accepted calc uses that height. So cmon now, that’s a bit too transparent. Also damage in the OP said the best image of Seireitei was the one where Shakonmaku is a perfect sphere.

“Kubo would just need to draw a perspective from outer space”

Are you kidding me with that? Any large sized object cannot be large unless displayed from outer space!? That’s awful reasoning.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Just a heads up, most of the issues are with Serreitei are less about the width/diameter surface area of Seireitei's domain and more about the height of the glass like dome surrounding it, at least 2 thirds of the Dome's height should visibly appear in outer space. Also, I really isn't that hard to displace a country sized city, it Kubo would just need to draw an image of the planet where Seireitei is visible in outer space with the naked eye.

If i may post just this briefly, the issue with this is assuming the world of Soul Society has "space" right outside of it. This doesnt seem to be the case as the soul palace is directly above the world, about 48,000 km wise. That Palace has clouds btw. There is still some sort of atmosphere that high up

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

We don’t pixel scale the Bijuu or Sage Frogs due to visual inconsistencies, we don’t pixel scale large objects in Black Clover due to visual inconsistencies, we don’t pixel scale Seireitei in Bleach due to visual inconsistencies.

Highly consistent statements >>>>>>>>>>>> highly inconsistent visuals.