New issues with the calculated size of the Seireitei

[Damage3245]

If i may post just this briefly, the issue with this is assuming the world of Soul Society has "space" right outside of it. This doesnt seem to be the case as the soul palace is directly above the world, about 48,000 km wise. That Palace has clouds btw. There is still some sort of atmosphere that high up

The 48,000 kilometers does not extend just straight up; it extends into a different dimension. There is no reason to assume that the entire atmosphere extends that high into the sky.

This is like arguing that the planet of Soul Society is infinitely large because the prison of Muken is in the ground underneath the Seireitei.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This is like arguing that the planet of Soul Society is infinitely large because the prison of Muken is in the ground underneath the Seireitei.

High 3-A Bleach when

The 48,000 kilometers does not extend just straight up; it extends into a different dimension. There is no reason to assume that the entire atmosphere extends that high into the sky.

Gerard was going to fall straight from Reiokyu to Seireitei. Stop pretending there’s a special path.

For the nth time when we have inconsistencies with visuals and consistent statements, we always take the statements over the visuals.

 

[Cyberblader90]

lille also fell down, and the wandenreich lift is another example of debris just shooting straight up

 

[Damage3245]

Gerard was going to fall straight from Reiokyu to Seireitei. Stop pretending there’s a special path.

But there is a path... Didn't Ganju literally have a map of the path?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

But there is a path... Didn't Ganju literally have a map of the path?

It’s vertically straight up.

Wandenreich was lifted straight up
Reio eyeballs were shot straight down
Auswahlen light was shot straight down
Gerard could fall straight down
Ichigo traveled straight down
A spiral staircase exists going straight down
Kukaku shot them straight up
Yhwach shot himself straight up
Ganju’s diagram is a straight line

Damage you literally argue Ichigo was in free fall going down to Seireitei, and that is I’m pretty sure what our current distance calc uses. You’re contradicting yourself, there is no special path. It is a line from A to B.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage you literally argue Ichigo was in free fall going down to Seireitei, and that is I’m pretty sure what our current distance calc uses. You’re contradicting yourself, there is no special path. It is a line from A to B.

I don't think you quite get what I mean. There being a "special path" and it being a straight line from A to B aren't contradictory.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't think you quite get what I mean. There being a "special path" and it being a straight line from A to B aren't contradictory.

All the barriers were shattered and nothing changed with the atmosphere.

Lille fell straight down.

What is the issue.

And why does this matter it doesn’t change the fact that you want to use extremely inconsistent visuals with Bleach when in literally every other verse we go with statements over inconsistent visuals.

 

[Damage3245]

What is the issue.

This is what I mean. The Soul King's palace existing in another dimension means that we don't assume it is literally 48,000 km above the surface in the actual dimension of Soul Society. There is no reason for the atmosphere to actually extend that high.

Characters falling in a straight line down from the Soul King's palace also isn't contradicted by this.

And why does this matter it doesn’t change the fact that you want to use extremely inconsistent visuals with Bleach when in literally every other verse we go with statements over inconsistent visuals.

I think there is enough counter-evidence to put the calculation into doubt.

Just because visuals aren't perfect doesn't mean literally any calculated result based on a statement has to be used.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

To portray how dumb a “tiny Seireitei” is:

Kubo directly worked on FtB since the early stages and was in charge of the SETTING

Kubo would later go on to watch the movie and take absolutely no issue with it, in his own words he felt extremely satisfied in the movie, believing it couldn’t get any stronger.

There’s a direct statement in the movie itself detailing that Seireitei is utterly massive, and we are going to ignore that for inconsistent visuals!?

>This is what I mean. The Soul King's palace existing in another dimension means that we don't assume it is literally 48,000 km above the surface in the actual dimension of Soul Society. There is no reason for the atmosphere to actually extend that high.

Also, this: @Arc7Kuroi Point out that the walls also fall from the SKP straight down so the gates would simply be larger than the size of the Seireitei and since we know there is a direct path between them that didn’t involve Ichigo, Renji or Rukia needing to hold their breath, an atmosphere clearly exists within the tunnel to and from SS to SKP. Clouds and such existing there where space would be on earth is irrelevant as we know there is an atmosphere.

The barriers were broken yet nothing changed.

 

[Antvasima]

I am leaning towards agreeing with Mitch and IMade here. My apologies Damage.

 

[Damage3245]

I am leaning towards agreeing with Mitch and IMade here. My apologies Damage.

That's fine. At the moment it seems there are a few staff members in agreement with the thread, and a few who aren't. I didn't expect that this would be over quickly anyway.

There’s a direct statement in the movie itself detailing that Seireitei is utterly massive, and we are going to ignore that for inconsistent visuals!?

We are ignoring a non-canon statement.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

We are ignoring a non-canon statement.

Profusely sorry for intruding....

But even if plot is non-canon( only because characters are in different situations)...that doesn't make the setting, geography and civilization non-canon.

Saying "non-canon" is just blanket reply to dismiss hard facts.

 

[KingTempest]

Gave me a damn headache reading that essay. That essay could get you some college scholarships.

But anyways, IMade's argument makes sense to me. The point about the landmarks were to show that the place is huge (which worked), and with the arguments of consistent artwork (which I've used to get things axed and accepted), it's valid and it'd be hypocritical for me to go against it.

With the dozens of landmarks and the fact that we don't see them in the pictures in the OP, it's clear that the mangaka just clearly doesn't want to draw them. Valid argument.

 

[KingTempest]

Don't take this as me fully agreeing.

I have an issue with the cloud height as well. The cloud height is absurd and we can't ignore that

 

[Damage3245]

With the dozens of landmarks and the fact that we don't see them in the pictures in the OP, it's clear that the mangaka just clearly doesn't want to draw them. Valid argument.

The author not drawing certain landmarks doesn't mean that the size of whatever he's trying is automatically invalid as well.

And there are other arugments in the OP besides the overall visuals of the Seireitei.

EDIT: Just saw your made another response.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Don't take this as me fully agreeing.

I have an issue with the cloud height as well. The cloud height is absurd and we can't ignore that

in regards to the cloud height, the palace argument encompasses that

we have clouds 48,000 km above the seiretei, and 48,000 km is the lowest we have calced that distance. it can be far higher

 

[Damage3245]

we have cloud 48,000 km above the seiretei, and 48,000 km is the lowest we have calced that distance. it can be far higher

Clouds in a different dimension don't apply to the Soul Society dimension.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

And when the barriers between Reiokyu and SS break, SS’s atmosphere doesn’t change, meaning SS can support that atmosphere.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Clouds in a different dimension don't apply to the Soul Society dimension.

The dimensions are connected in the war, stop pretending the barriers aren’t removed.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Clouds in a different dimension don't apply to the Soul Society dimension.

what supports it being an entirely separate dimension?

the Toureimon are the gates that protect Seireitei when it is in danger, but originally protect the Soul King & Zero Squad palaces

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It’s it’s own dimension in the same way Ohio is a separate state from Pennsylvania, they have borders sure, but are still directly connected and can be freely travelled between.

 

[Cyberblader90]

the two are spatially linked. The main division is the barriers, nothing more. barriers that were gone for most of the war arc.

reposting arc's post above:

It’s vertically straight up.

Wandenreich was lifted straight up
Reio eyeballs were shot straight down
Auswahlen light was shot straight down
Gerard could fall straight down
Ichigo traveled straight down
A spiral staircase exists going straight down
Kukaku shot them straight up
Yhwach shot himself straight up
Ganju’s diagram is a straight line

 

[Damage3245]

what supports it being an entirely separate dimension?

It's called a different dimension.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It's called a different dimension.

Read what cyber and I just said.

Ohio is a different state from PA, but they are still physically connected.

You can be a different place than another place and be connected.

Stop ignoring points. They are specially connected.

THE BARRIERS are BROKEN during the MAJORITY OF THE BLOOD WAR, they are SPATIALLY CONNECTED.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Until you, Damage, prove it is spatially isolated from Soul Society, you cannot make that assertion. So drop the point, because nothing says it’s spatially isolated, in fact evidence is for the exact opposite.

Unless you think Bleach characters can cross spatiotemporally isolated dimensions with raw speed alone.

 

[Damage3245]

Until you, Damage, prove it is spatially isolated from Soul Society, you cannot make that assertion. So drop the point, because nothing says it’s spatially isolated, in fact evidence is for the exact opposite.

Unless you think Bleach characters can cross spatiotemporally isolated dimensions with raw speed alone.

Spatially connected =/= the Soul King's palace is inside the Soul Society's atmosphere.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Your cloud issue pertains to realism correct? If the two were truly spatially divorced, and then the barrier is destroyed, wouldnt there be massive consquences from both atmospheres suddenly coming together?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Actually in the raws, Yama says 別の空間 which just means “another space” not different dimension, there ya go, debunked.

For the nth time, the barriers were broken and nothing happened to SS’s atmosphere, MEANING SS can withstand that atmosphere, MEANING you have no basis to compare earth cloud heights to a planet that can contain/withstand a 48000 km breathable atmosphere.

Just concede you’re grasping at straws, even if I strawmanned and gave you the cloud thing, you still fail to debunk IMade’s 99 other points. And the clouds fall under visual inconsistencies too. It doesn’t help your point at all.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Also to address something that keeps getting put under the rug

https://vsbattles.com/threads/new-issues-with-the-calculated-size-of-the-seireitei.120359/post-3943494

As arc points out here with citations, Kubo worked on and approved the Setting shown in this film. This film is the only media giving us an actual numerical measurement for the seiretei size. No Inconsistent Visual, No vague statement. An actual number.

Damage you explicitly wanted to wait for certain calcs (ex: Wandenreich lift) for the anime to come back and clarify things, despite the anime being non canon because it could potentially give non vague data. We use the naruto anime to give a timeframe for a vague scene in the manga for a feat. Using fade to black is no different.

It is by far the best data we have on the Seireitei Size, and should not be thrown because the film plot wasnt canon. The setting is for all intents and purposes, canon.

 

[Damage3245]

Your cloud issue pertains to realism correct? If the two were truly spatially divorced, and then the barrier is destroyed, wouldnt there be massive consquences from both atmospheres suddenly coming together?

The barrier was open for just over an hour and a half. On a huge scale like the entire atmosphere, I'm not sure that a timeframe as long/short as that would be enough for there to be an effect.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The barrier was open for just over an hour and a half. On a huge scale like the entire atmosphere, I'm not sure that a timeframe as long/short as that would be enough for there to be an effect.

No it was not, because Lille was able to fall from Reiokyu and land outside Seireitei.

 

[Damage3245]

No it was not, because Lille was able to fall from Reiokyu and land outside Seireitei.

Yes, it was because we have confirmation from Yhwach himself that's how long the barriers would be open.

Maybe Lille pierced the barriers as he fell. He did manage to pierce the dome of the Seireitei after all.

 

[Cyberblader90]

there would be a degree of atmospherical distortion to the planet at the very minimum. Manga doesnt portray this

 

[Cyberblader90]

and can we stop dancing around fade to black

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

there would be a degree of atmospherical distortion to the planet at the very minimum. Manga doesnt portray this

This ^^^ increasing the breathable atmosphere from 6 km to 48000 km and there being no side effects is impossible. The only conclusion is SS has a massive atmosphere that can support 48000 km of breathable air.

Again damage at best you’re using a visual inconsistency, which is already been debunked and invalidated.

 

[Cyberblader90]

for the lille point:

https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0654-005.png

https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0654-006.png

He only broke the seireitei barrier, nothing more. Nothing here establishes the barriers for the soul palace were back up

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Damage I don’t know if you understand but you saying “maybe this happened” and provided absolutely no evidence is not an argument. It’s an opinion, take them else where. The absolute preponderance of evidence in favor of massive Seireitei far outweighs the visual inconsistencies.

Again on vsbw when visuals are inconsistent we use statements.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage I don’t know if you understand but you saying “maybe this happened” and provided absolutely no evidence is not an argument. It’s an opinion, take them else where. The absolute preponderance of evidence in favor of massive Seireitei far outweighs the visual inconsistencies.

It is an argument for reasonable doubt. Based on everything I've seen in the manga for Seireitei, I have a reasonable doubt for the calculation that we're currently using.

The vast majority of the points brought up in favor of "Massive Seireitei" don't support the figure given by the calculation.

The movie statement is irrelevant. It is a separate figure altogether. It is not "supporting the current calculation".

Statements can be outliers too, you know? Especially if we have to depend on additional assumptions to use those statements in a calculation.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It is an argument for reasonable doubt. Based on everything I've seen in the manga for Seireitei, I have a reasonable doubt for the calculation that we're currently using.

The vast majority of the points brought up in favor of "Massive Seireitei" don't support the figure given by the calculation.

Yes they do

Seireitei has more districts than Japan
Yoruichi’s statement exists
FtB’s statement exists

When visuals are inconsistent we use statements.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Damage we have the mountain point, which you assume was retconned, though kubo is consistent on forgetting landmarks in several seiretei shots

There is the amount of districts, which you mentioned could small even though we have no evidence for that.

We have the yourichi statement

I have made a case for the validity for fade to black which hasnt been addressed.

The cloud point is the strongest evidence against

Two problems:

If we are going with realism here, the atmospheres of ss and the palace must be linked in some fashion, otherwise the planet would have had atmospheric distortions, which obviously didnt happen.

2nd, and I have no idea why this hasnt been brought up:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/samus-is-still-a-certain-tier.111905/

Metroid has the same issue you arguing here

Zebes has an absurd given mass for a planet, but that mass has remained consistent across metroid official media, which is why we have the planet ratings as we do now.

I know you dont like other verses being brought up, but the premise is pretty much identical. The seireitei has statements across years of media to support the size we calc it to.