New issues with the calculated size of the Seireitei

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Ok, we've established the visuals are inconsistent, so why would we use them over the statements?

Makes zero sense if we agree the visuals are wrong

 

[Damage3245]

Ok, we've established the visuals are inconsistent, so why would we use them over the statements?

Makes zero sense if we agree the visuals are wrong

The visuals are consistently against the 1000+ kilometer diameter for the Seirietei. Issues like Ichigo and company entering the Soul society from above, Yhwach being mistaken for outside the dome, and the cloud height are all a part of that too.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The visuals are consistently against the 1000+ kilometer diameter for the Seirietei. Issues like Ichigo and company entering the Soul society from above, Yhwach being mistaken for outside the dome, and the cloud height are all a part of that too.

You’re circling back to the beginning, this has been addressed and debunked. Stop repeating yourself this was shut down 3-4 months ago.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

The visuals are consistently against the 1000+ kilometer diameter for the Seirietei. Issues like Ichigo and company entering the Soul society from above, Yhwach being mistaken for outside the dome, and the cloud height are all a part of that too.

Sounds like the visuals are inconsistent with everything being said about the Seireitei yes, therefore we shouldn't use the visuals

I did the same shit with the Clover Kingdom Capitol

 

[Damage3245]

You’re circling back to the beginning, this has been addressed and debunked. Stop repeating yourself this was shut down 3-4 months ago.

I'm posting my core argument, yes, because I think it still stands. So far a few other staff members have agreed with those core arguments.

This thread isn't the same as the one three months ago.

 

[Cyberblader90]

ive already addressed the cloud point above

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'm posting my core argument, yes, because I think it still stands. So far a few other staff members have agreed with those core arguments.

This thread isn't the same as the one three months ago.

Yeah except they’ve all been debunked over and over and over again. Of the people still actively participating more disagree with you, just like last time.

Sounds like the visuals are inconsistent with everything being said about the Seireitei yes, therefore we shouldn't use the visuals

I did the same shit with the Clover Kingdom Capitol

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Consistent statements > inconsistent visuals, ITS HOW WE OPERATE

 

[Damage3245]

Consistent statements > inconsistent visuals, ITS HOW WE OPERATE

You entitled to your opinion on it. Making it bold and capslock isn't going to make me agree more. Personally I don't think that the statements are as consistent as you claim, or that the visuals are impossible to use.

Let's see if any other staff members comment.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Its literally what we do for metroid. It visuals dont support 900x gravity at all, yet it has consistent statements for that level of planet mass

 

[StrawHatArslan]

im pretty sure this is just constant debunking and constant repetition at this point....

anyways, I agree with arc and mitch here

EDIT: (Forgot this was staff only, ****, my apologies, last comment)

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You entitled to your opinion on it. Making it bold and capslock isn't going to make me agree more. Personally I don't think that the statements are as consistent as you claim, or that the visuals are impossible to use.

Let's see if any other staff members comment.

It’s not an opinion it’s quite literally what we do.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Considering the author is Japanese and based his setting of Soul Society off of Japan, it is highly likely they’re similar to Japanese districts. Nothing implies otherwise.

Districts are also described as their own individual towns, supporting IMade’s claim, and justifying the size statements even more than the highly inconsistent visuals.

Oh, that's a good one that largely supports my point. 2404 Japanese Town size Districts.

Japanese towns are huge in comparison to the USA.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I know right, it’s almost like Kubo intends for Seireitei to be massive!

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Forgive the whataboutism, but Akame Ga Kill has a 200k square km statement with visuals that don't match at all but we go with the statement. So add that to the consistency check list.

Additionally, when Renji and Rukia go up to Reiokyu they comment on how it's harder to breath up in Reiokyu due to the reishi density increasing as they go up. If SS's atmosphere was like earth, it would've been immensely crushed by 48000 km worth of higher density air after 1.5+ hours of exposure. But it didn't have any issues at all, so there goes the cloud point. This is undeniable proof that SS's atmosphere must be comparable or the planet would be uninhabitable.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think this mostly comes down to if you think that visual depictions outweigh statements in regards to evidence. Personally I'm of the option that statements usually take priority due to the large hang-ups that can come from lack of scale knowledge from an artist; But, if we're saying an artist is really that bad with visual depictions of size then my issue then becomes that any calc involving said images are either unusable or we're being hypocritical in how we get results from them.

So in the end I think the statements for the Seireitei's size is usable. But if we're going with that then I personally think we shouldn't use any sort of pixel scaling calc that comes from the Seireitei, since that would just be a double-think sort of view imo.

Additionally, when Renji and Rukia go up to Reiokyu they comment on how it's harder to breath up in Reiokyu due to the reishi density increasing as they go up. If SS's atmosphere was like earth, it would've been immensely crushed by 48000 km worth of higher density air after 1.5+ hours of exposure. But it didn't have any issues at all, so there goes the cloud point. This is undeniable proof that SS's atmosphere must be comparable or the planet would be uninhabitable.

What? That's the exact opposite of how the atmosphere works. The higher you go the thinner the atmosphere not the thicker.

 

[Damage3245]

I think this mostly comes down to if you think that visual depictions outweigh statements in regards to evidence.

It's not just visual depictions. There are logical consistency problems with it too as mentioned in the OP.

 

[Qawsedf234]

There are logical consistency problems with it too as mentioned in the OP.

Honestly after reading through both your and Imade's comment I'm not seeing it as a logical inconsistency but a case of visuals not matching up with a statement. Things like Yhwach being spotted by superhumans isn't wild in my view, but the visuals just don't align with what is stated. Either the Seireitei is small or Kubo cannot be trusted to accurately draw what he is attempting to depict. If its the former (which I don't think it is) we need to adjust stuff and if its the latter then I personally don't think we should use any calc that gets a result from the Seireitei's size outside of given distances or timeframes.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Honestly after reading through both your and Imade's comment I'm not seeing it as a logical inconsistency but a case of visuals not matching up with a statement. Things like Yhwach being spotted by superhumans isn't wild in my view, but the visuals just don't align with what is stated. Either the Seireitei is small or Kubo cannot be trusted to accurately draw what he is attempting to depict. If its the former (which I don't think it is) we need to adjust stuff and if its the latter then I personally don't think we should use any calc that gets a result from the Seireitei's size outside of given distances or timeframes.

As far as I am aware the calcs used for stuff like sereitei etc. Are used going by the statements and not by pixel scaling due to the all contradictions
(Also sorry to comment on staff, just wanted to bring this up)

 

[Damage3245]

Things like Yhwach being spotted by superhumans isn't wild in my view, but the visuals just don't align with what is stated.

Indeed, that's essentially my point. If one the one hand we have Yoruichi state that it is a 10 day travel to the next gate, but on the other hand Kubo explicitly shows us two gates in the same panel; confirming that they're not actually that far away from each other, then isn't Yoruichi's statement thrown into question? It hardly seems impossible to me that the 10 day statement was thrown out as a reason not to have the characters just try entering through another gate, but instead directed them towards a different means of entering the Seireitei that would result in them being split up once they got in [the cannon method].

It throws me off how this statement for the distance between the gates came up once and was then never referred to again or confirmed by any other character or shot of the Seireitei.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So in the end I think the statements for the Seireitei's size is usable. But if we're going with that then I personally think we shouldn't use any sort of pixel scaling calc that comes from the Seireitei, since that would just be a double-think sort of view imo.

We currently don’t use any calcs that involve pixel scaling Seireitei. The reasoning behind the current Gremmy calc being accepted is precisely because it doesn’t involve pixel scaling Seireitei to find the meteor

What? That's the exact opposite of how the atmosphere works. The higher you go the thinner the atmosphere not the thicker.

Fiction =/= real life. Which is why using the real life cloud argument is stupid for a fiction planets atmosphere that seemingly ignores irl atmospheric physics.

It seems most people here agree statements > inconsistent visuals atm.

It throws me off how this statement for the distance between the gates came up once and was then never referred to again or confirmed by any other character or shot of the Seireitei.

In the movie FtB that Kubo was heavily involved in they do mention a size statement that perfectly supports Yoruichi’s.

 

[Damage3245]

We currently don’t use any calcs that involve pixel scaling Seireitei. The reasoning behind the current Gremmy calc being accepted is precisely because it doesn’t involve pixel scaling Seireitei to find the meteor

It's still hypocritical. You're arguing that Kubo can draw the Seireitei the completely wrong size nearly a dozen times and not at all how he actually intends the size of the Seireitei to be, but when it comes to the size of the meteor, he's accurately drawing the size of the meteor as it would be if it was 500+ kilometers away and the meteor is proportioned exactly how he intends the size of it to be.

If I pull up an image comparing the size of the meteor to the size of the Silbern, which we know the size of, to disprove that calculation, you will turn around and say "visuals don't count, Kubo obviously didn't draw the Silbern to be the size he intended it to be."

 

[Qawsedf234]

It throws me off how this statement for the distance between the gates came up once and was then never referred to again or confirmed by any other character or shot of the Seireitei.

If it was just the one statement I would agree that a throw away line wouldn't be evidence. But its not the one statement. Like the AgK capital we have multiple statements and backup novels that support that its incredibly large. 1,000 kilometers is a bit iffer imo but its also not outright contradicted in my view if you ignore visuals that we're already ignoring at the moment.

We currently don’t use any calcs that involve pixel scaling Seireitei. The reasoning behind the current Gremmy calc being accepted is precisely because it doesn’t involve pixel scaling Seireitei to find the meteor

Wouldn't Las Noches also fall under this purview or are we only declaring the Seireitei inconsistent?

Which is why using the real life cloud argument is stupid for a fiction planets atmosphere that seemingly ignores irl atmospheric physics.

But.... you're the one who brought that up. I wasn't debating the atmosphere point, I was saying that your examples works the exact opposite of how it actually works IRL.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It's still hypocritical. You're arguing that Kubo can draw the Seireitei the completely wrong size nearly a dozen times and not at all how he actually intends the size of the Seireitei to be, but when it comes to the size of the meteor, he's accurately drawing the size of the meteor as it would be if it was 500+ kilometers away and the meteor is proportioned exactly how he intends the size of it to be.

If I pull up an image comparing the size of the meteor to the size of the Silbern, which we know the size of, to disprove that calculation, you will turn around and say "visuals don't count, Kubo obviously didn't draw the Silbern to be the size he intended it to be."

We tried using a meteor impact formula that didn’t rely on visuals at all but you didn’t like that. I’m more than happy to use the impact formula as it doesn’t rely on any visuals at all.

We don’t have a stated size for the Silbern but we do for Seireitei. Stated Seireitei size > assumed pixel scale of Silbern (which can vary depending on methods).

 

[Damage3245]

We tried using a meteor impact formula that didn’t rely on visuals at all but you didn’t like that. I’m more than happy to use the impact formula as it doesn’t rely on any visuals at all.

The flaws of the meteor impact formula for this case are a different topic and I pointed out the issues with that.

We don’t have a stated size for the Silbern but we do for Seireitei. Stated Seireitei size > assumed pixel scale of Silbern (which can vary depending on methods).

You don't have a stated size for the Seireitei in the manga. You have a calculated size which uses more assumptions than pixelscaling the Silbern.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Wouldn't Las Noches also fall under this purview or are we only declaring the Seireitei inconsistent?

As far as I am aware Las noches is also treated like sereitei, by statements only, because like sereitei the size is very inconsistent
On one page u would have a pilar that looks super small and wide and on the next page that same pillar is like 100 FT high and skinny
(Again sorry just want to make this clear)

 

[Qawsedf234]

by statements only, because like sereitei the size is very inconsistent

If we do then this needs to be altered

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

But.... you're the one who brought that up. I wasn't debating the atmosphere point, I was saying that your examples works the exact opposite of how it actually works IR

My intention was just to point out that the cloud point is very weak at best. I’m not trying to find the specifics of Soul Society’s wacky atmosphere. I apologize for any confusion.

Wouldn't Las Noches also fall under this purview or are we only declaring the Seireitei inconsistent?

I’d answer this more in depth but I don’t wanna derail atm.

The flaws of the meteor impact formula for this case are a different topic and I pointed out the issues with that.

Precisely you complain about every method, to the point where you end up saying “let’s just not have a calc for it”. You accepted a ground level explosion formula over a meteor impact formula for a meteor. Why because one had a lower value, when the value is low you don’t care, but now that Gremmy got a high rating youre in a frenzy.

You don't have a stated size for the Seireitei in the manga. You have a calculated size which uses more assumptions than pixelscaling the Silbern.

You’re blatantly ignoring shit now. Kubo himself said he worked on the setting of Fade to Black, Kubo himself said the movie was the best work he could produce, in that movie the setting, or Seireitei, is stated to be utterly massive. Don’t pretend we don’t have a stated size.

“oh oh oh but Arc the movie isn’t part of the main timeline!” It doesn’t ******* matter, Kubo was closely involved with the production since the beginning. Do you think the statement came out his ass? Do you think Kubo was like “hmmmmm I’m gonna make FtB Seireitei 600 ri wide, but manga Seireitei is only 100 km”? It’s utter nonsense.

Every single statement about Seireitei is in favor of a massive size. The novels, the anime, the movies, the manga, like shit do I need to make a Klub Kubo account and ask Kubo how big Seireitei is?

 

[Cyberblader90]

Ok if I may be frank I'm getting sick and tired of this being danced around

Damage for the last time will you please respond to my post regarding the film

Using the film would follow your exact initial approach to wanting to wait for the anime for certain things which is also non Canon, and using the non canonical Naruto anime for time frames for scenes from the manga that were too vague

If you do not respond to this I will consider that there is no counter to it.

And it's previously brought up the argument for the cloud is nonsensical considering that we already have an established a verse that does the exact same thing that being Metroid, and Akame ga kill.

I'm just asking can we stop dancing around and that there be no double standards in how we treat things with this across the board

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Kubo verbatim said he wrote the details of FtB's setting. Here's the image for all who don't feel like looking for it.

You cannot get more direct than this. The author telling us everything about the setting was his idea, and part of said setting was Seireitei and its size.

In case you needed more proof Kubo endorses the movie. In his own words "my work [the movie] felt completed".

 

[Cyberblader90]

The flaws of the meteor impact formula for this case are a different topic and I pointed out the issues with that.



You don't have a stated size for the Seireitei in the manga. You have a calculated size which uses more assumptions than pixelscaling the Silbern.

pixel scaling silbern is a bad option. It gets like 9 km for the seiretei at best if you use these shots:

9km seireitei contradicts literally everything, the novels, mountains, heck even toshiro's 11km range for bankai

Even your calc in the op for the novel at 100 km gets contradicted:

Let this hopefully run the nail in, Kubo is inconsistent with his visuals, and we cannot use seireitei shots for its size.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I feel like damage’s own points/evidence with the visuals contradicting themselves just goes to show how awful using the visuals are.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Either the Seireitei is small or Kubo cannot be trusted to accurately draw what he is attempting to depict. If its the former (which I don't think it is) we need to adjust stuff and if its the latter then I personally don't think we should use any calc that gets a result from the Seireitei's size outside of given distances or timeframes.

I agree completely with Qaws here, especially the bolded.

My calc, which is the currently accepted Seireitei size, is entirely based on a given stated distance with an assumed timeframe of rest despite these characters being Superhuman in speed and endurance (especially Ichigo, Yoruichi, and Uryu at this point in the story).

 

[Damage3245]

Ok if I may be frank I'm getting sick and tired of this being danced around

Damage for the last time will you please respond to my post regarding the film

Using the film would follow your exact initial approach to wanting to wait for the anime for certain things which is also non Canon, and using the non canonical Naruto anime for time frames for scenes from the manga that were too vague

If you do not respond to this I will consider that there is no counter to it.

And it's previously brought up the argument for the cloud is nonsensical considering that we already have an established a verse that does the exact same thing that being Metroid, and Akame ga kill.

I'm just asking can we stop dancing around and that there be no double standards in how we treat things with this across the board

A diameter of over 2200 kilometres is an even more extraordinary figure that I would expect additional evidence to support.

Going for a purely statements only approach like this because you cannot trust anything Kubo gas drawn, and then turning around and using his visuals when it suits you is something I can't accept. I don't see how you can't see that claiming Kubo can never draw the Seireitei the intended size makes sense because that's not how Kubo works as an artist, but he totally can draw the meteor the correct size extrapolated from Yoruichi's statement, doesn't make sense.

Glossing over the logical issue of clouds being above the dome of Seireitei by saying "Other verses have weird things too" or "Physics don't apply to Soul Society, clouds can be whatever height" just makes any kind of logical argument against your calculations to be impossible.

From the novel you get at least 100 km, from Yoruichi you get 1000 km, from the movie you get 2200 km, and you tell me all of the statements are entirely consistent with each other? Makes me feel like I'm being gaslit.

 

[SilentBob34]

@Damage sorry to comment without permission, but I think if you were too assume they did walk non stop considering their stamina, the value of Yoruichi’s statement would be closer to the movie distance than the current one. The current one is only 1000 km because we assume they rest 8 or more hours a day to be conservative. But that’s my only comment on here

 

[Cyberblader90]

ill respond to the rest tomorrow buttt

Going for a purely statements only approach like this because you cannot trust anything Kubo gas drawn, and then turning around and using his visuals when it suits you is something I can't accept. I don't see how you can't see that claiming Kubo can never draw the Seireitei the intended size makes sense because that's not how Kubo works as an artist, but he totally can draw the meteor the correct size extrapolated from Yoruichi's statement, doesn't make sense.

besides the 9km seiretei from silbern pixel scaling, lets take this full circle. Credit to sb for this calc:

Step 1 using two different images in which the character used as a reference is more than a blot gives a range for the height of the scaffold in the order of 35-41 meters

Step 2 using the single image that actually offers us a full view of Execution Hill in the Soul Society arc gives the place a height of roughly 250-300 meters. Calculating things based on some other lateral images gives slightly smaller sizes, with 180 as the low end

Finally, step 3 suggests a city diameter of slightly over 5 kilometers for the 180m low end mentioned above to approximately 8.35 km for a 300m Execution Hill

Kubo's art gets us a seireitei smaller than toshiro's bankai range. You expect me to believe the mountains and 2000+districts fit there (with them being called towns), and that this works with all other lore, novels included?

 

[Damage3245]

@Cyber; I'm not proposing we use a 9 km figure for the Seireitei's size. If we had to use a size for the Seireitei then my proposal would be to just use an average size for the Seireitei, as that seems like the fairest Mid End approach.

 

[Cyberblader90]

But that is the issue. All if not most of the shots you provided circle back to have to using either stuff like silbern, scaling the hill, etc. They will not get anything consistent with lore. Closest it will most likely get is near toshiro's bankai range. Kubo cannot for his own sake ever marry the text with his visuals, at least in the case of the seireitei. He forgets landmarks, and even with in those shots and has several forced perspective shots. Take this shot for example.

The impact on the dome is not too much larger than the target that hit it, which was about 5 human sized targets in a sphere. Take this shot literally, and seireitei is SMALL. Visuals cannot work to scale this thing. So we must default to the text

 

[Cyberblader90]

This one might be the worst offender, literal forced perspective here.

Two of these are close up, partial view of the full dome, missing several landmarks. The middle shows more of the dome, but if you measure it, would get less than 10 km.

As I said, unreliable.

Glossing over the logical issue of clouds being above the dome of Seireitei by saying "Other verses have weird things too" or "Physics don't apply to Soul Society, clouds can be whatever height" just makes any kind of logical argument against your calculations to be impossible.

I am not glossing over, Im saying the way we go about things is 1 contradicting point doesnt out way consistency to the text. It also isnt a few verses, it is SEVERAL. This applies to several jrpgs and other series, Final fantasy 6 comes to mind. The verse is large planet from the same premise.

The soul palace already solves your issue, both atmospheres are linked, with clouds being 48,000 km higher than seireitei.

From the novel you get at least 100 km, from Yoruichi you get 1000 km, from the movie you get 2200 km, and you tell me all of the statements are entirely consistent with each other?

100 km was your take on the novel, it can be higher than that. Our 1000 km can also admittingly be higher. The point is none of this supports what would be 9km or less seireitei going off pure visuals.

 

[Cyberblader90]

damage, to repeat something you have said in the past.

I highly recommend that if you feel the calc we use is inconsistent, wait for the anime for the visuals given in it for the seireitei size. The manga is far to unreliable in that regard.

This would save everyone time in the aspect that we dont reopen this exact premise again every 2/3 months. If i can wait for the anime for a timeframe for the wandenreich lift, this shouldnt be an issue. Its a solid solution in my opinion

 

[Damage3245]

damage, to repeat something you have said in the past.

I highly recommend that if you feel the calc we use is inconsistent, wait for the anime for the visuals given in it for the seireitei size. The manga is far to unreliable in that regard.

This would save everyone time in the aspect that we dont reopen this exact premise again every 2/3 months. If i can wait for the anime for a timeframe for the wandenreich lift, this shouldnt be an issue. Its a solid solution in my opinion

I can agree to put the topic on hold and postpone this thread until we get some additional information.

I'll even make a discussion rule for it, if that'll help.